Some things to consider when going CIH - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 01-22-2012, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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After reading as much as I could on the AVS forums and others, I decided to go with a 2.35:1 screen because movies are the main focus for my theater and widescreen was the prominent AR for my favorite movies. After finally getting all of the pieces/parts together and setting everything up, some issues came up that I hadn't thought of and didn't read about. So I thought I'd share my findings for what they're worth.

I made my decision knowing that I would have to manually zoom in/out for 2.35:1 vs. 1.85:1 vs. 1.78:1 (I have the Epson 8350) and mask the sides as appropriate. I figured adjusting the zoom as needed from time to time was no big deal. I also knew that without an amamorphic lens, to fill the wider AR, I would have light overcast at the top and bottom of the screen (it is still projecting a 1.78:1 image after all). I just added masks above and below the screen to absorb the overscan. However, two issues came up that I did not take into consideration.

1.) Menus and many extra features are still in the 1.78:1 AR. So if you're set up for 2.35:1 the top and bottom of the these are cut off. Depending on menu layout, you may have to adjust for the menu and then back to 2.35:1 for the movie. Even that wouldn't be so bad except for issue #2.

2.) I did not realize that when using the lens shift function that the zoom would be affected. Everytime I zoom in/out I also have to adjust the vertical lens shift. So each AR correction with the zoom also requires a lens shift correction. Double the adjustments, and with issue 1, twice as often as I thought.

These are not deal breakers by any means, but without motorized controls it can get to be a hassle. I am still very satisfied with my HT and love the impact of the large cinemascope visuals, but just know what your getting into if you go the same route as me.

If by chance I am doing something wrong and should not be seeing these affects, please let me know!
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post #2 of 18 Old 01-22-2012, 03:14 PM
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Thanks, this is great information. I'll be doing the same thing as you - and like you this info isn't a deal-breaker - but it will help to keep expectations realistic.

What material did you use to minimize the "black bars" above and below the screen? I plan to use a velvet frame, though honestly I can't imagine there's that much light leaking through. I've got a JVC HD250 and from what I've seen, the blacks are very dark.
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post #3 of 18 Old 01-23-2012, 08:07 AM
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With my Panasonic AE4K I just set the function button to flip through the available aspect ratios, which includes a S16:9, this give me the entire 16:9 view scaled down to fit in the middle of the screen. This quickly allows me to make audio or chapter selections then I use the function button to go back to the full 16:9 setting. Quick, painless and no need to touch the zoom button. The biggest pain will be dealing with movies that have sub titles outside of the image frame if your device can't manually shift them inside the image frame.

Bill
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post #4 of 18 Old 01-23-2012, 12:46 PM
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I, too, have an Epson 8350 (still within return period, and I'm mulling over a couple of other projectors, but there's a good chance I'll keep it), and have been thinking hard about going with a 2.35:1 (or thereabouts) screen and doing the manual zoom/shift thing. I've already experimented with it by over-projecting onto my 92" 16:9 screen to simulate a couple of different 2.35:1 screen sizes, and really liked the idea of a super wide screen. In the course of doing that, I came across both of the issues you described, as well as the light spillage issue you mentioned. That light spillage might actually be the biggest concern for me, because part of the reason I started thinking about the 2.35:1 screen approach is because my movie room is in my upstairs loft and my left wall is shorter than the right wall, with a steep slope up to my 10' ceiling. This slope forced me to go smaller on a 16:9 screen, but allows me to get wider than I could with a 16:9 screen if I go 2.35:1. The problem, though, is that light spillage then ends up spilling onto part of the sloped ceiling, which is white right now, and would ideally remain white (I don't think my wife will be happy if I paint the ceiling black). So I'm still mulling the whole idea over some more.

A couple of thoughts on the issues you highlighted:
1) I'm less concerned about menus spilling over, because my plan is to rip all of my movies and play just the main movie file.

2) Need to manually zoom and shift. I believe you can get an external scaler box for not too much money that will rescale your 16:9 content to fit within the smaller portion of your 2.35:1 screen. There are pros/cons to this, as you will not need to manually zoom/shift, but you'll lose lines of resolution. I will likely be using XBMC running on an older Acer Revo nettop PC, and I think I can configure it to do this, so I'm strongly considering that. Over the next couple of days I hope to test it out and see how noticeable the resolution loss is.

I believe that XBMC should handle the subtitle shifting as well, though I'm also considering converting all of my rips to MP4 files (still at 1080p) using Handbrake, so as to maintain backward compatibility with some jailbroken Apple TV 2's running XBMC in other rooms (where the TV's are smaller and ATV2's 720p output is good enough). If I go that route, I believe that Handbrake will allow me to shift the subtitles and burn them into the output video.

Scott R
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I'd much rather watch a great movie in B&W at 240 lines of resolution than a lousy movie in 1080p with lossless audio.
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post #5 of 18 Old 01-23-2012, 01:19 PM
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Oh the joy of the Panny 4000 and its lens memory! I have the following aspect ratios programmed in and just a push of the button gets a perfect screen fit for any of the following aspect ratios, which I have labelled into the AE4000 MENU:

Classic 4:3
Widescreen 16:9
Todd AO
CinemaScope 2.35
Technirama 2.65
Cinerama

Its all so quick and easy, and the lens memory gives you a razor sharp, perfectly zoomed and vertically positioned picture every time. For me, the AE4000 is just perfect for 2.35 (and beyond.!) I just cannot imagine things being any better with an expensive anamorphic lens.
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post #6 of 18 Old 01-23-2012, 03:22 PM
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Some projectors have shutter settings as well. For example, I have an HC4900 that I will eventually be upgrading from. The HC4900 has shutter settings and you can adjust so that they block the light so the black bars on the top and bottom (and sides as well) are blocked. Only issue is that they do not go to a memory setting so when switching back to 16:9, you would have to undo the shutter, then redo for 2.4:1.


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post #7 of 18 Old 01-23-2012, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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@ mrfattbill - unfortunately the Epson 8350 only allows AR changes if the video input is anything other than HDMI. With HDMI the AR is auto select only.

@ taffman - planned features of my next pj!
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post #8 of 18 Old 01-24-2012, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticalJet View Post

Some projectors have shutter settings as well. For example, I have an HC4900 that I will eventually be upgrading from. The HC4900 has shutter settings and you can adjust so that they block the light so the black bars on the top and bottom (and sides as well) are blocked. Only issue is that they do not go to a memory setting so when switching back to 16:9, you would have to undo the shutter, then redo for 2.4:1.

The Panny 4000 also has shutter settings for light blocking both sides as well as top and bottom. The neat thing is that the settings can be programmed into, and retained, into the lens memory settings.
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post #9 of 18 Old 01-24-2012, 01:17 PM
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Damn didn't know about the shutter I'll look into that next time. Well I didn't get to use my panny ae4k much on my last leave, but boy was it fun the 20days I did watch 235 content.
I setup the zoom between widescreen and scope by the remote push button. Wondering if I should set the "auto zoom" so it changes automatically when senses input content. Some say this can be annoying on movies that view in two contents (ie dark knight, tron) while it changes but for the majority I think it would benefit saving our lazy fingers from even pushing the button lol. This way in theory the menus would be viewed then the movie starts and the big content zooms out auto. Keeping your cold beer in one hand and the other in your snack of choice. (hey keeping it clean here)

Budgeted the panny from the get go since it had the electronic zoom. Fixed frame 115" scope screen is flat out awesome. The wife now laughs at the 70" when browsing in samsclub.

"I should really see what dB levels I'm pushing. Long as it can't foam my beer during a movie we are ok "
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post #10 of 18 Old 01-24-2012, 05:23 PM
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Some more FYI for those looking to get into 2.35. Last summer when talking to an Epson rep, he mentioned to me the 5010 is the next gen of the 8700 UB which has CIH (vertical stretch). Therefore, I pre-ordered and purchased the 5010, received it December 1 of last year, and guess what, no CIH and no way to view 2.35 without purchasing an expensive external scaler.

The best, lowest price scaler I can find is the DVDO Edge Green for $500. Pretty expensive if all I want is CIH.
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post #11 of 18 Old 01-24-2012, 07:13 PM
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A couple of comments based on recent posts:

1) The AE4000 intrigued me (and I've been quite happy with my now very aged Panasonic PT-AE700U 720p LCD projector), but I'm concerned about the lumens output. Based on what I've read, it sounds like it might be lacking there. But I'd be especially interested in hearing from anyone who may have compared it to an Epson 8350 (what I'm testing now). Note that I do not have a fully light-controlled room and, for now at least, my walls are white. The 8350 is very usable/enjoyable for me, though, so keep that in mind.

2) I, too, came across the DVDO Edge Green. It sounds like it does a bunch of things I'm not sure I need, as well as the scaling. I have not had a chance to try it out yet, but if it works for you, you may also consider an HTPC running XBMC. From what little I've read recently on the subject, it sounds like the latest versions offer several features which could be great for CIH, such as scaling on a per-movie basis and subtitle shifting. Again, I haven't had time to play with this yet. I do have an older Acer Revo nettop PC running XBMC which I've been using lately to play my Blu-ray rips and project them onto my current 16:9 screen, and I plan to test out some of the CIH-friendly functionality by zooming out my projector to simulate a larger 2.35:1 screen and messing with the XBMC settings to see what's possible.

Scott R
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I'd much rather watch a great movie in B&W at 240 lines of resolution than a lousy movie in 1080p with lossless audio.
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post #12 of 18 Old 01-25-2012, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srauly View Post

2) I, too, came across the DVDO Edge Green. It sounds like it does a bunch of things I'm not sure I need, as well as the scaling. I have not had a chance to try it out yet, but if it works for you, you may also consider an HTPC running XBMC. From what little I've read recently on the subject, it sounds like the latest versions offer several features which could be great for CIH, such as scaling on a per-movie basis and subtitle shifting. Again, I haven't had time to play with this yet. I do have an older Acer Revo nettop PC running XBMC which I've been using lately to play my Blu-ray rips and project them onto my current 16:9 screen, and I plan to test out some of the CIH-friendly functionality by zooming out my projector to simulate a larger 2.35:1 screen and messing with the XBMC settings to see what's possible.

The subtitles are transmitted as part of the video image by the Blu-ray player. It is not possible for an outboard scaler to change the position of the subtitles within the image, except by shifting the entire picture (letterbox bars and all) up or down.

If you need to adjust the position of the subtitles within the picture, you'll need a Blu-ray player that can do that for you, such as the OPPO BDP-93.

Although I haven't kept up with recent developments, one of the reasons I abandoned DVDO for its competitor Lumagen was a profound lack of aspect ratio controls on the Edge and Duo models. They had only the most rudimentary support for CIH.

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post #13 of 18 Old 01-25-2012, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The subtitles are transmitted as part of the video image by the Blu-ray player. It is not possible for an outboard scaler to change the position of the subtitles within the image, except by shifting the entire picture (letterbox bars and all) up or down.

If you need to adjust the position of the subtitles within the picture, you'll need a Blu-ray player that can do that for you, such as the OPPO BDP-93.

Right, I was talking about XBMC's ability to shift subtitles. XBMC is a software application that would run on, in this case, an HTPC and would be playing a ripped Blu-ray movie.

Scott R
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post #14 of 18 Old 02-01-2012, 04:24 PM
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Native Scope Aspect Ratio Projector is here.

Digital Projections has a new Scope projector that uses 2560 x 1080 DLP chip. The info about this Scope projector is a bit peculiar. The chip has 2560 x 1660 micro mirrors.

What's especially annoying is the total absence of price. As a general rule, when a company hides the price, they are embarrassed by the sky high price. Not great news.

But the great new is that JVC and Epson and Sony can't let Texas Instruments get away with it. Any of those companies can make 2560 x 1080 pixel chips, but the size might be large, and large chips might need large lenses. Cost of lens might keep native Scope projectors high in cost.
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post #15 of 18 Old 02-07-2012, 05:41 AM
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Thanks a lot for bringing this up. I hadn't thought about the menus either. Yes, a motorized lens is a major plus if you're doing zoom. Glad my PJ has one.

Greg


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post #16 of 18 Old 02-07-2012, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsearles View Post

Yes, a motorized lens is a major plus if you're doing zoom. Glad my PJ has one.

Or a HTPC with a 2.35:1 desktop.
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post #17 of 18 Old 02-08-2012, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emf View Post

Native Scope Aspect Ratio Projector is here.

I am about to put a pin in this bubble for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emf View Post

Digital Projections has a new Scope projector that uses 2560 x 1080 DLP chip. The info about this Scope projector is a bit peculiar. The chip has 2560 x 1660 micro mirrors.

Correct. It is in fact a 16:10 projector with an internal mask, not a native 2.37:1 projector at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emf View Post

What's especially annoying is the total absence of price. As a general rule, when a company hides the price, they are embarrassed by the sky high price. Not great news.

Which part? No price listed or the fact that it was $45K in 2010?

Quote:
Originally Posted by emf View Post

But the great new is that JVC and Epson and Sony can't let Texas Instruments get away with it. Any of those companies can make 2560 x 1080 pixel chips, but the size might be large, and large chips might need large lenses. Cost of lens might keep native Scope projectors high in cost.

Along with other technical limitations such as image brightness. Because the lamp in the device throws light in many directions, the larger (more square) the chip, the brighter it will be on screen. Thin that down to a sliver, you waste allot of that light as only a portion now hits the screen.

POP

Mark Techer

I love my Constant Image Height system!
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post #18 of 18 Old 02-15-2012, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taffman View Post

The Panny 4000 also has shutter settings for light blocking both sides as well as top and bottom. The neat thing is that the settings can be programmed into, and retained, into the lens memory settings.

Can anyone confirm that this feature exists on the Panasonic 7000 as well? I have been thinking about that projector for a while.


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