Originally Posted by Cam Man
Coolscan, enjoyed your post. The Sony F65 is an 8K sensor, but for many reasons like and beyond those you mentioned, the cameras don't render the full area. Neither you nor I want to type that much.
The short version for those of you following the post, other desireable PQ factors (such as compression and bit depth) have a price on the output resolution. The F65 can deliver 16-bit linear RAW up to 4K. Frame rate also affects available resolution. The design of the pattern of the photosites on the sensore panel also play an important role. There are a ton of variables.
I have seen extensive discussions about the F65 8K claim both from DP's, camera manufacturers and people who have tested the camera. And no one can find out really where the 8K numbers comes from.
Maybe one day Sony can explain how they reach those numbers. But for now with conventional resolution counting, the numbers doesn't add up.
If your interested you can see how Graeme Nattress explains the 8K numbers; http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...l=1#post894692
The Red cameras have a wonderful modular design that gives them a ton of flexibility. The Sony camera (F35 and F65) are larger and less modular, but larger is a relative term. I look at an F35/65 and say, "...and compared to a Panaflex or 535?"
Yeah, everything is relative and RED has managed to put an impressive lot of power in a small package. Good that technology moves forward.
Strange how RED manages to build such a small camera while the more experienced like Sony and Arri need so much size to process their images.
See comparison between the Alexa and the Epic-X and you see what I mean.
Alexa was released at the same time as the first RED Epic's.(some specs. might have changed as this is nearly a year old)Click-able thumbnail
My guess is that one of the strongest reasons that The Hobbit is using the Red Epic is because it's small size is a great advantage in configuring compact, effective 3D rigs. That is a good niche and reason to choose it for that show.
Besides the fact that Peter Jackson is a RED fan, the size of the Epic is a good reason.
But it is more to it; At the time of production start it was the only camera with high enough resolution and framerate to "future proof" the movie so it was not stuck in "1080 is good enough" which it would have been with f.ex. the Alexa. The Alexa can only do 30fps in 2K so it can't be used for 48fps. 3D.
My guess that's the same reason Ridley Scott shot "Prometheus", Baz Luhrmann shoots "Gatsby" and John Schwartzman DP's "Spiderman 4" among many other on the Epic.
It is disappointing that the producers of the first digitally shot Bond movie shoots on Alexa just because the DP is an "Arri fanboy" and that they didn't let the resolution advantage and "future proof" the material weight higher.
The reasons that a given camera is chosen for a production are voluminous. I have not used or tested the Red Epic that is being used on The Hobbit. I don't know if its lattitude and dealing with highlights has improved over the previous Reds. But their predecessors keep you on your toes on dealing with highlights during the shoot. DPs just have to plan and work around that...which is normal. The Sony F35 (and Alexa) are much more forgiving with highlights; much more like film. The F35's weakness was/is it's sensitivity and noise at the low end. I hear that the F65 is now terrific in this area. We'll see.
The problem with the F35 is that it is CCD, low resolution and hardly resolve more than 1.4K measured on a chart.
The RED one with the "new" sensor (two years old now) has about the same latitude as the Alexa (13-14 stops), ref. the Zacuto shoot-out.
The Epic has about 13.5 stops latitude and 18 stops latitude with HDRx.
Coolscan, you may already have seen this, but everyone interested in the evoltuion of digital cinema cameras and how they perform compared to each other and 35mm film should watch this shootout. It is extremely well done (by a lot of my comrades in the industry); very educational for anyone in that filed...or enthusiasts here. Part 1 is quite amazing, but the other parts are very useful, too. Enjoy. http://www.zacuto.com/the-great-came...11/episode-one
I have seen them several times, both the 2010 and the 2011, and all the forum discussions afterwards.
Some criticism is naturally avoidable, but for the 2011 shoot-out went mainly on the fact that some camera resolution measures was higher than the camera sensor resolution which made people mistrust other data in the shoot-out. And that the guy who was the leader of the project was somewhat of a known Arri "fanboy". So when he "had to" re-shoot the Alexa test based on some flimsy excuses, many people started to distrust the whole test scenario.
Will be more interesting this year where each company are invited to select their own crew. Hopefully we will see both the F65 and the Epic-X against Alexa, even tough those two cameras can't display their 4K RAW downsampled advantage in this test against the Alexa.
My point, though, is that the F65 is taking a step into higher capabilities and is only part of a rapidly progressing evolution. Whether there will ever be a reason to reach for 8K or higher at that bit depth, etc, is unknown. I just suggested a fun fantasy with Ultra Panavision Digital, and grabbed 8K out of thin air as a possible technology.
Higher resolution is always better in my book, both in cameras and display tech.
What I reacted to was the 8K claim of the F65.
8K in broadcast terms is 7680 x 4320 and 8192x4320 in movie terms, and that is a resolution the F65 can never output even if you "shake it hard".
It just "bugs me a little" when Sony's 8K claim is repeated by people.
JVC has build some 8K CMOS prototype cameras for NHK for their 8K broadcast tests, and Sharp has built them some 85" 8K TV's, so 8K is on its way. JVC also has some kind of 8K projector, but I don't think you can buy it yet.
RED also has a 9K camera on their "road map" but that can take some time.(no point in making them if there are no 8K projectors).
I am all for a "Ultra Panavision" kind of experience, but it seems like (despite my scepticism) than one can have that with higher than 4K resolution digital camera material projected with 4K DLP projectors.
If you havn't read it already, I just added the text from a report from last year to a thread where the link to the original report is dead;http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post21602311
You will also find a link to a thread with a report from Cineramax's in the same thread.
Link to the only report I have found from this years shoot out is here; http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post21520872