11.x sound for CIH theaters discussion - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 97 Old 02-25-2012, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Being the Home Theater experience is Audio + Video, and we've got the video covered by our CIH set-up's, everything is/(was) fine and dandy for me chugging along with my 130" CIH 7.1 set-up.

Then, I see Mark posted this image and totally got me thinking about the whole craze of more front wall surround speakers, yes 11.x.

I count (7) - yes SEVEN speakers at ear height (approximately), plus the (2) at ceiling height.

Where are other CIH screen people with this?

I felt the CIH forum is appropriate place to talk about this, as we tend to lead the home theater trends...
(a search found nothing in this sub-forum)

More so, what about the small room acoustic models that we use, now that we are adding many more front surround speakers how has that modified your theater acoustic treatments?
 

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Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

Here is an image from a [friend of mine] system that used 11.4 channels, has 3D and is of course 3.6m (12ft) wide CIH The side masking is open and not visible here. The Aussiemorphic MK4 is mounted on a slide but is in place here hence the image stretch.



I got to watch SUPER 8 last night on this system and I must say, I am suitably impressed by what the extra channels do. Next screening will have to be something in Scope 3D

 

[edit 12-12-12]

I've added the recommended layout's so people can be on same page for discussion:

Audyssey visual:

 

This visual from my Denon 4520CI manual,  makes it easier to grasp all the 7.1/9.1/11.1 speaker layout.


 

Here is the DTS Neo:X™ visual:


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post #2 of 97 Old 02-26-2012, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post


Where are other CIH screen people with this?

Because my Screen is already wall to wall, the only way I could extend the Z axis would be to add height speakers in the same way Auro3D has done. I have space and the cables are in place for 3 height screen channels. These cables were the old feeds for the LCRs before I went active.

Wide is out for me and after listing to a few film soundtracks through the system pictured, Heights add more than Wide, so for me not really an issue. If I was to do Wides, they'd be more like front surrounds being I've run out of width in the room.

In the system pictured, the owner took time to lay out the speakers in the same way the ITU-R is set up for 5.1.

If this was my set up, I would be putting in a larger AT screen and standing that centre speaker vertical. I'd mode L and R in to the 1.78:1 position and keep the Wides just outside the screen. Heights could even go behind the screen too.

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post #3 of 97 Old 02-27-2012, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Where are other CIH screen people with this?


I'm pretty early in my retrofit of an upstairs room to a 140" wide 2.40 AT CIH screen with 11.1 Audyssey surround system.

My Enlightor 4K screen is being fabricated and my last four JTR slanted8's are being shipped. I'm just starting to run wire to the speaker locations.

I have a Denon 4311ci AVR and JVC X70 PJ ready and waiting.

I intend to start a thread in the dedicated home theater section in the near future.

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post #4 of 97 Old 02-27-2012, 03:33 PM
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The only issue I have with these "3D" sound fields is that at this time and excluding that film RED TAILS, there is not allot of program that is actually mixed for Wide and Height. Sure the processor works to deliver a pretty convincing sound field, but it works with what it has as a feed. I think it would be very different is there was actual sound mixed in phase (sum) and out of phase (difference) in both FL/SL and RF/RS. Then we would have true steering ability.

I still think adding these extra channels/speakers adds more than it subtracts and why I would like to get at height channels (Z axis) in my system some time soon.

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post #5 of 97 Old 02-27-2012, 06:51 PM
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I'm pretty early in my retrofit of an upstairs room to a 140" wide 2.40 AT CIH screen with 11.1 Audyssey surround system.

My Enlightor 4K screen is being fabricated and my last four JTR slanted8's are being shipped. I'm just starting to run wire to the speaker locations.
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post #6 of 97 Old 02-28-2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

The only issue I have with these "3D" sound fields is that at this time and excluding that film RED TAILS, there is not allot of program that is actually mixed for Wide and Height. Sure the processor works to deliver a pretty convincing sound field, but it works with what it has as a feed. I think it would be very different is there was actual sound mixed in phase (sum) and out of phase (difference) in both FL/SL and RF/RS. Then we would have true steering ability.

I still think adding these extra channels/speakers adds more than it subtracts and why I would like to get at height channels (Z axis) in my system some time soon.

In some sense, I'd like to believe I'm future proofing my theater. I think the trend is towards more speakers in the home theater setting, with Dolby IIz and Audyssey DSX leading the charge (though Yamaha has had height speakers as an option for some time). I bought the Enlightor 4K to future proof for future 4K projection, in much the same way I bought the additional height and wide speakers to future proof for advances in surround sound.

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post #7 of 97 Old 02-28-2012, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Mark - in your friends HT did you by chance go from 7.1 to 9.1 to 11.1 on a specific scene to truly sense the increase in.......soundfield?

Also, did he add specific acoustic treatments (absorption or 1D diffusion, etc) with the added speakers?

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post #8 of 97 Old 02-28-2012, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willscam View Post

In some sense, I'd like to believe I'm future proofing my theater. I think the trend is towards more speakers in the home theater setting, with Dolby IIz and Audyssey DSX leading the charge (though Yamaha has had height speakers as an option for some time). I bought the Enlightor 4K to future proof for future 4K projection, in much the same way I bought the additional height and wide speakers to future proof for advances in surround sound.

There is nothing wrong with future proofing. My first dedicated room back in 2000 was pre-wired for 9.1 (5.1 + Back and Wide Surround, not heights) even though EX was only just emerging and 5.1 was the standard. Of course, I never used those Wide cables, but for the cost of a retrofit (re-doing walls etc), it made more sense to just run the extra 4 cables at that time. I am really glad I did this because in 2003, when I ungraded to EX (Back Surround), my cables were already in place

The challenge is knowing what to future proof for. Whilst I am excited about extended systems, my resistance to Height and Wide has always been concerned about how such a system might be implemented into a real cinema. The limited number of Auro3D systems shows how Height speakers can work in the cinema environment, but there is no mention of Wide because they would clash with the surround arrays. If film soundtracks are to be mixed for this new configuration, then ideally we should have the same speaker layout at home.

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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Mark - in your friends HT did you by chance go from 7.1 to 9.1 to 11.1 on a specific scene to truly sense the increase in.......soundfield?

Also, did he add specific acoustic treatments (absorption or 1D diffusion, etc) with the added speakers?

His original 9.1 processor was an Onkyo that offered a choice of Height or Wide, not both. On the day I got to first hear this version of his system, he didn't have his height speakers, not did he have the option to raise the floor standers he is using for Wide speakers today. So it was a case of listening to something and then re-configuring the system and then listening to the same program again.

Because we could not raise the speakers on the day, he chose Wide as the option he would use. We could not really get a sense of true 'height' with the speakers on the floor anyway.

My thoughts were that musicals sounded better, but there was little to no benefit to an actual film soundtrack. It still added something that IMO was better than not having the Wides connected.

Later he upgraded to the Denon which allowed him to have both Height and Wide speakers.

Mark Techer

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post #9 of 97 Old 03-12-2012, 09:55 PM
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I'm running 9.4 Klipsch THX speakers with Audyssey DSX Integra Pre Pro 80.2, its impossible now for me to go back. I only run with "front highs" as my screen is too wide to now fit the Wides in, but boy oh boy do I wish I had made space for them when I designed the cinema. The front sound stage is BIG and very alive, if I turn off the highs the movie sounds small. DSX makes a huge difference and I now play all films this way.

Audyssey do say the WIDES are more important than the HIGHS if you have to choose. I wish I had the room to fit the WIDES in as I know my sound could even be more impressive if I had the space.

Next one I build

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post #10 of 97 Old 03-14-2012, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

I'm running 9.4 Klipsch THX speakers with Audyssey DSX Integra Pre Pro 80.2, its impossible now for me to go back. I only run with "front highs" as my screen is too wide to now fit the Wides in, but boy oh boy do I wish I had made space for them when I designed the cinema. The front sound stage is BIG and very alive, if I turn off the highs the movie sounds small. DSX makes a huge difference and I now play all films this way.

Audyssey do say the WIDES are more important than the HIGHS if you have to choose. I wish I had the room to fit the WIDES in as I know my sound could even be more impressive if I had the space.

Next one I build

Yeah, I'm doing the full 11.2, but the wides are going in at only a 45 degree angle from the MLP. There's a bathroom door in the 50 to 60 degree position on one side of the theater that limits speaker placement. My wife wouldn't let me mount the speaker on the door itself.

My height speakers I'm mounting on the ceiling, so that I can get close to the 45 degree recommended angle. Didn't bother asking my wife about that decision.

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post #11 of 97 Old 03-14-2012, 11:28 AM
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I was running 7.1 in my old apartment theater using front heights. Since my couch was up against the wall I didn't want to have rears in my ears, lol, and I couldn't properly place the wides so I went with heights. The living room there had 12' high ceilings, so placing the heights wasn't an issue. I loved what they brought to the experience. I have since moved into a house where I am planning on building a dedicated theater room. Ceilings are much lower, so I'm thinking I will have the heights moved closer to the seating than the LCRs and let Audyssey adjust for their placement. I am also debating on using front wides or rears. I will have 2 seats in the front row, main seating, and three seats in the second row against the wall. Even though I won't be sitting in the second row I am hesitant to do rears, since I don't want them in guest's ears, but I'm wondering if I will be missing out by not having them. Also, my LCRs, Heights, and if I go with Wides, will be of different families. Audyssey suggests to use the same family for the front stage, but it is just not possible, how bad do you all think this will be?

-Sean
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post #12 of 97 Old 03-14-2012, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 230-SEAN View Post

Also, my LCRs, Heights, and if I go with Wides, will be of different families. Audyssey suggests to use the same family for the front stage, but it is just not possible, how bad do you all think this will be?

-Sean

I am no expert, but I think it would be more important to have your wide speakers in the same family than your height speakers. The wide speakers, it seems to me, are really an expansion of your LCR speakers. I consider the height speakers more of an expansion of the surround "effects" speakers.

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post #13 of 97 Old 03-14-2012, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
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I am no expert, but I think it would be more important to have your wide speakers in the same family than your height speakers. The wide speakers, it seems to me, are really an expansion of your LCR speakers. I consider the height speakers more of an expansion of the surround "effects" speakers.

I was thinking the same. Maybe the guests will just have to deal with rears.

-Sean
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post #14 of 97 Old 03-14-2012, 03:49 PM
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I think that Back Surround is more important than Wide or Height additions. I'd be moving the seats forward to allow 7.1 (as there are soundtracks mixed for this) and then add Heights and Wides if you can.

Looking at my own system again, and I think I could add wides as my L and R are just inside the 1.78:1 width, so there is space outside that on the baffle wall. The L/LW and R/RW pairs would be close, but I do think it would work (based on experiments I did with my LCRs a few years back) in my room. Heights are a non issue because I have at a least 1 foot between the top of the screen and the ceiling.

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post #15 of 97 Old 03-14-2012, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

I think that Back Surround is more important than Wide or Height additions. I'd be moving the seats forward to allow 7.1 (as there are soundtracks mixed for this) and then add Heights and Wides if you can.

Looking at my own system again, and I think I could add wides as my L and R are just inside the 1.78:1 width, so there is space outside that on the baffle wall. The L/LW and R/RW pairs would be close, but I do think it would work (based on experiments I did with my LCRs a few years back) in my room. Heights are a non issue because I have at a least 1 foot between the top of the screen and the ceiling.

Audyssey does state that the WIDES are more important than the REAR BACK speakers. They also state that the WIDES are more important than the HIGHS if you have to choose. They also state that the WIDES should be placed a fair distance away from the front L&R.

I could have placed some WIDES next to the L&R as I have a similar situation to you. I emailed Audyssey and asked them about this placement and they said more or less dont waste my money with that close placement, just live with the HIGHS only, which I do have placed correctly.
http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/audyssey-dsx

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post #16 of 97 Old 03-14-2012, 06:58 PM
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It is an interesting point for them to make as soundtracks have been mixed as 6.1 (Surround EX) since 1999 and now that D-Cinema is here, 7.1 soundtracks are beginning to appear. Transformers 3 and Toy Story 3 are both fully discrete 7.1 requiring Back Surrounds, not Wide or Height.
Auro 3D and Red Tails may change the industry so far as Height goes, but I can't see Wides working in a cinema environment for 2 reasons:
  1. there is nowhere to add the extra speakers between the edge of the screen and the surround arrays (Surrounds in a cinema should start at +/-60 degrees) and
  2. competent mixers don't mix phantoms between the L/LS and the R/RS because they know that human hearing does not allow us to hear the phantom in that location particularity well.
You test this youself with any test disc (The Ultimate DVD Platinum is an example) that contains pink noise in channels pairs for a 5.1 system. The test tones are equal in both channels, yet the sound heard is spectrally broken up with more highs to the front and more mids to the surrounds. This alone is reason and even proof of why we need Wide speakers in our systems, but again, where does one place them so that the entire audience hears the benefits?

Like your system, my screen extends to the side walls because I wanted the feel of the room to be like a small cinema, not just another AV room with a big screen. As mentioned, I do have the space, but before I invest both the time and money on a retrofit, I would want to know that there is actually going to be program I can listen to.

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post #17 of 97 Old 03-14-2012, 08:21 PM
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My understanding with wides is that they are to be 60 degrees from center. Since they are used in Audyssey DSX, Audyssey is expecting you to use the Audyssey calibration (MultiEQ if sorts) to setup your system. This calibration takes the speaker that is furthest from the main listening position and uses it as a reference point to add delay to all other speakers in order to create a spherical soundfield. This allows you to place wide speakers closer to the listening position than your mains in order to have them 60 degrees off center. Audyssey will then add enough delay and adjust volume output enough to those speakers to make them sound as if they are further away from the seating position than they actually are. So, you don't need to have a really wide room, just have to use the Audyssey calibration.

-Sean
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post #18 of 97 Old 03-14-2012, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

Like your system, my screen extends to the side walls because I wanted the feel of the room to be like a small cinema, not just another AV room with a big screen. As mentioned, I do have the space, but before I invest both the time and money on a retrofit, I would want to know that there is actually going to be program I can listen to.

We could be waiting a long time for that Mark, the only way now is via DSX Audyssey.

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post #19 of 97 Old 03-15-2012, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 230-SEAN View Post

My understanding with wides is that they are to be 60 degrees from center.

The first time I looked into the possibility of adding wide, I had thought of mounting them on the side wall between the screen and the side surrounds. I may look into this again soon and having heard the extended systems in that photo from post 1, they add more than they subtract, so a good thing.

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We could be waiting a long time for that Mark, the only way now is via DSX Audyssey.

Maybe. Only time will tell. The issue is of course implementing into the cinema or 11.2 might just be a home audio format with program being up-mixed for BD later on.

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Thanks for that. The visuals certainly helped explain the 3 layers and how this is different to just adding Height channels. Looking at my own room, and I can actually implement this system should a HT version ever become available.

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post #22 of 97 Old 03-29-2012, 12:00 AM
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Yes it all sounds great but sadly Im not about to cut my new cinema up for this new concept!

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post #23 of 97 Old 03-29-2012, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Yes it al sounds greaat but sadly Im not about to cut my cnew cinema up for this new concept!

And fair enough too. The only reason I am excited about this is because I have the room above both the screen and the surrounds, so this is do-able for me with minimal effort. Cost is of course another issue though - additional amps, cables and speakers

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post #24 of 97 Old 03-29-2012, 06:22 AM
 
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It’s not easy for myself to put matching sets of JBL Control 12SR x6 of them in the front (I’d be lucky to get away at putting x5 up for five-screen, never mind 6-screen) not without firstly knocking down the stage and lowering so I can fit a further 3 a few feet above the existing set of 3.

Looking at it again could say stuff it and do away with 12SR and use Control 1 or 5 easily placed up front and put in a further x10 Control 1 or more to the already x12n I have would have a few snags in one location in the room.

The front is the difficult due to some of us having matched LCR some easy models like bookshelf easy larger ones not so easy unless your ceiling is greater than 15 feet which I somehow doubt. Smaller bookshelf are more versatile and easy to install.
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post #25 of 97 Old 03-29-2012, 03:12 PM
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I have matched LCRs as well, but lucky, mine are just 16" tall. The thing is, how much of the soundtrack will come from these new height speakers?

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post #26 of 97 Old 04-27-2012, 08:14 PM
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I run 11.1 with my Denon 4311 and have my heights in the ceiling (angled tweeters and pitched ceiling) and wides a little farther out and closer to me than the mains due to room constraints. My wides are on speaker stands and I have to move one of them from the wall, out into the room for each movie viewing due to room layout and cord trip hazard. Hey, it is my main living room, gimme a break...

I can honestly tell you after doing tons of research and wondering if it would be worth it due some compromises on the speaker angles, and cost, it is flat out awesome. Pure movie bliss....
When you watch a movie like Transformers or Avatar or whatever with great sound, you feel like you are sitting in the middle of the movie.
I'll never go back if I can help it.
When people come over and watch movie they are blown away.

I've got a 106" wide 2.35 screen.
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post #27 of 97 Old 04-27-2012, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tazinax View Post

I run 11.1 with my Denon 4311 and have my heights in the ceiling (angled tweeters and pitched ceiling) and wides a little farther out and closer to me than the mains due to room constraints. My wides are on speaker stands and I have to move one of them from the wall, out into the room for each movie viewing due to room layout and cord trip hazard. Hey, it is my main living room, gimme a break...

I can honestly tell you after doing tons of research and wondering if it would be worth it due some compromises on the speaker angles, and cost, it is flat out awesome. Pure movie bliss....
When you watch a movie like Transformers or Avatar or whatever with great sound, you feel like you are sitting in the middle of the movie.
I'll never go back if I can help it.
When people come over and watch movie they are blown away.

I've got a 106" wide 2.35 screen.

With all that amazing sound its a shame you cant fit in a larger screen than 106" to match it.

Murray Thompson

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post #28 of 97 Old 05-22-2012, 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by CAVX
And fair enough too. The only reason I am excited about this is because I have the room above both the screen and the surrounds, so this is do-able for me with minimal effort. Cost is of course another issue though - additional amps, cables and speakers

Just how critical is the whole timbre matching issue as regards front LCR mains and heights?
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post #29 of 97 Old 05-23-2012, 03:53 PM
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I've been jones'n to expand my 7.1 to 11.1 with my 120" wide 2.35 screen.
But I won't take out my back surrounds which are powered towers, they were my front mains until I upgraded. The only game in town is the 4311 to allow simultaneous 11.x, I personally like Onkyo, but so far they haven't implemented the 11.x. The new Denon replacement for the 4311 will continue to offer it and maybe this year's higher end Onkyo also. I will probably upgrade the AVR with one of them, and place the height speakers on the ceiling at 45 degrees to the main seating and the wides will be wall mounted about 45 degrees also to the main seat. Since I sit about 13 ft from the screen in a 14 foot wide room those angles would make the wides about equidistant from the fronts and side surrounds which are floorstanding speakers also. The Auro 3D concept is very tantalizing, if it is ever implemented for home cinema I would most likely attempt some side height surronds and the 'voice of God' speaker. For action/scifi/horror that could be better than a Disney or Universal Studio ride!
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post #30 of 97 Old 05-24-2012, 09:27 AM
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A development that some of you might be interested in:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/srs-labs-mda-audio/

And a related piece that fleshes out the concept a little more:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/dolby-atmos/

Josh Z
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