New Panamorph Lens Coming Soon - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 163 Old 09-26-2012, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Word on the street at CEDIA this year was Panamorph is planning on releasing a new fixed/manual Horizontal Expansion lens kit (mounting bracket and lens) that will retail for under $1500! :excited:

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post #2 of 163 Old 10-03-2012, 11:48 PM
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Not a re-vamp of the UH 50 is it?

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post #3 of 163 Old 10-04-2012, 05:16 PM
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Nothing in the dealer literature regarding any such thing.
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post #4 of 163 Old 10-19-2012, 07:55 AM
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The press release went out today about the new lens. It's called the CineVista.
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post #5 of 163 Old 10-19-2012, 09:53 AM
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Here's the link:

http://www.panamorph.com/cinevista/index.html

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My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my employers.

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post #6 of 163 Old 10-19-2012, 04:54 PM
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I talked to the sales department and they told me, it is only a two lens system. hence the $750 early buy in, before it goes back up to $1,400
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post #7 of 163 Old 10-23-2012, 01:38 AM
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Sent an e-mail to Panamorph this is the reply concerning my JVC @13.7ft throw.


"The JVC is a great fit for our new CineVista lens. Yes, the lens can tilt on the U-bracket to ensure the proper geometry on the screen.

The great part about the CineVista is the 2 element design. Having less glass in the light path helps withthe sharpness of the image. You should not see any softening of the image with your X90. In fact, you will now be able to utilize all the resolution for your 2.35:1 movies.
This lens was designed to use the Chromatic correction that is now being implemented in certain projectors. Your JVC projector will correct for this and you will be able to dial out the CA (Chromatic Aberration) in the image.

There will be no issues with the astigmatism at that distance. The focus range can go down to 6 feet and up to 18 feet without any noticeable blurring or diminishing of the image.
Unlike the UH480 and DC1 which have the optional correctors at different distances, this is pre-focused to work within those ranges. That is one of the advantaged of the UH480 and DC1 lens."
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post #8 of 163 Old 10-23-2012, 02:05 AM
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How is the mounting system mounted to a projector? The description says it's sandwiched between the projector and the projector mount. But what I can't comprehend is the base of the mount which has no holes for bolts. Is the lens mount universal (able to fit all projector mount)? Can anyone give some info?

It'll be my first venture to CIH due to budget constraint. biggrin.gif
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post #9 of 163 Old 10-23-2012, 01:09 PM
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Great question Skylinestar and welcome to CIH. The nice part about this new lens system is that it attaches directly to the projector ceiling mount. The CineVista lens mount is designed to work with the Chief RPAU and the Omnimount 3N1-PJT projector ceiling mount.

Here is a link to a 3D PDF of the CineVista Lens attached to a projector. You can see in detail how this works. http://www.panamorph.com/cinevista/images/CineVista_System_Projector3D.pdf

If you are working with a tabletop configuration, you may not need the lens mount. The lens by itself comes with a U-bracket that can be secured to a flat surface in front of the projector if the shelf is long enough.

Make sure your projector has the appropriate anamorphic scaling modes. If your projector doesn't, its not a big deal. Some Blu-ray players, AV receivers and other outboard processors can accomplish these scaling modes for you.

If you are wondering if your projector has the scaling modes required, visit the what's needed section on the website. http://www.panamorph.com/cinevista/whats_needed.html

www.panamorph.com

Ultra-Wide Home Cinema
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post #10 of 163 Old 10-23-2012, 01:26 PM
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So, I'm assuming that like other anamorphic lenses the farther back you mount the projector and lens for your screen the better it is for reducing pin cusion? I'm liking the price.

*EDIT*

Will this lens work with the new Sony VPL-HW50ES? I believe it has the scaling modes but, I see the lens is recessed a little bit.
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post #11 of 163 Old 10-23-2012, 03:08 PM
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You got it. Moving the projector back with ANY horizontal expansions lens reduces the amount of pincushion shown on the screen. The longer your throw ratio, the better in most cases. If you have a curved screen, throw ratio is still important but your pincushion is corrected by the curvature of the screen.

Absolutely. The new Sony HW50ES model works great with the new lens. The CineVista has a large opening to accept most projection beams. Even those with recessed lenses.

www.panamorph.com

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post #12 of 163 Old 10-23-2012, 05:50 PM
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^ Thank You! cool.gif
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post #13 of 163 Old 10-24-2012, 11:43 AM
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Hey there,
I'm assuming the Infocus SP8602 is supported (as 8600 and 8604 are on the chart) but is 14 feet far enought back to avoid the pincushion effect on a 120" 2.35:1 screen?

Are you guys still doing the introductory pricing? Link?
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post #14 of 163 Old 10-24-2012, 12:36 PM
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The link is there. Look in post 5. Then click "Online Store."
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post #15 of 163 Old 10-24-2012, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottscb View Post

Hey there,
I'm assuming the Infocus SP8602 is supported (as 8600 and 8604 are on the chart) but is 14 feet far enought back to avoid the pincushion effect on a 120" 2.35:1 screen?
Are you guys still doing the introductory pricing? Link?

The CineVista lens will work with the InFocus SP8602 projector. You will use the Letterbox mode for your 2.35:1 content and 4:3 or normal mode for your 16:9 content with the lens in place.

There will always be some degree of pincushion. Your throw ratio is about 2.0-2.1 (based on the 16:9 image width) or about 3.7 (based on the screen height). Some may find that using the height for your throw ratio is easier because the height stays the same for 2.35:1 and 16:9.

Your scenario is actually a pretty good distance for reducing the amount of pincushion you will see on the screen. With a little bit of over-scan in the screen border, I would think that you shouldn't be bothered by the pincushion distortion.

www.panamorph.com

Ultra-Wide Home Cinema
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post #16 of 163 Old 10-26-2012, 01:54 PM
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Darn. I was excited about this until I read the following:

This lens does not include the chromatic correction feature available in our higher end lenses. Some pixel level color separation may be visible at the sides of the image, especially when viewing a test pattern during projector set-up. However, color separation should not be as noticeable at typical viewing distances with moving images.

I thought I might actually be able to afford one of these but it doesn't sound like it would be much of a step up if any from my old Prismasonic H1200R. At least what I have now is motorized but the optics are probably about the same, no correction or front element.
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post #17 of 163 Old 10-26-2012, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dropzone7 View Post

Darn. I was excited about this until I read the following:
This lens does not include the chromatic correction feature available in our higher end lenses. Some pixel level color separation may be visible at the sides of the image, especially when viewing a test pattern during projector set-up. However, color separation should not be as noticeable at typical viewing distances with moving images.
I thought I might actually be able to afford one of these but it doesn't sound like it would be much of a step up if any from my old Prismasonic H1200R. At least what I have now is motorized but the optics are probably about the same, no correction or front element.

I would just be looking for a deal on a Panamorph UH480 lens which if you hunted around for a bit you could probably buy for the same price as this new lens or cheaper! wink.gif

Once in awhile some nicely priced Panamorph UH480 lenses come up on Videogon.


...Glenn smile.gif
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post #18 of 163 Old 10-29-2012, 07:08 AM
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So, I'm a big hater of overscan...if its not per-pixel I'm out. Is it an option just to zoom out until the pincushion falls on the black screen border? I don't have a 2.35:1 screen yet but I could order one with extra black borders to accomodate this.
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post #19 of 163 Old 10-29-2012, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottscb View Post

So, I'm a big hater of overscan...if its not per-pixel I'm out. Is it an option just to zoom out until the pincushion falls on the black screen border? I don't have a 2.35:1 screen yet but I could order one with extra black borders to accomodate this.

Actually, I think were saying the same thing we just have our terminology crossed (my bad). What I am suggesting is that you just zoom the image out into the border of the screen to disguise the pincushion -- not actually activating any overscan functions within the projector. We tend to just call that "overscanning" since it is analogous to that process.

Your throw ratio is going to help out quite a bit in terms of how much zoom you will need to use. What size screen are you using and what is your throw distance?

Here's an example, I have a 125" 2.35:1 screen and my projector is about 15 feet back. The amount of pincushion I have is about 1/4" or less. I am over-scanning maybe a 1/2 inch on either side to compensate and the image looks perfect on my screen.

Most screens come with a standard 3 inch border, unless you are using a Zero Edge or something similar, so you shouldn't have to add any extra dimension to your screen frame.

www.panamorph.com

Ultra-Wide Home Cinema
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post #20 of 163 Old 10-29-2012, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottscb View Post

So, I'm a big hater of overscan...if its not per-pixel I'm out. Is it an option just to zoom out until the pincushion falls on the black screen border? I don't have a 2.35:1 screen yet but I could order one with extra black borders to accomodate this.

Just to point out that if you are using a lens then the image isn't 'per-pixel' as you put it: The 810 'lines' have to be vertically scaled to 1080 before the lens stretches the image horizontally, so is no longer 1:1 pixel mapped anyway. Not that this is an issue (especially if using a Lumagen video processor to scale) but just to point out this technicality.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #21 of 163 Old 10-29-2012, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dropzone7 View Post


I thought I might actually be able to afford one of these but it doesn't sound like it would be much of a step up if any from my old Prismasonic H1200R. At least what I have now is motorized but the optics are probably about the same, no correction or front element.

The 1200 has anti achromatic coating which the new Panamorph doesn't, so its probably a better lens. Neither have a 5th element corrector lens so I would think both would look about the same for sharpness.

Here's the original blurb for your lens:

The prisms of H-1200R lens have been finished by the optical glass using the highest possible surface accuracy parameters during the manufacturing process. This means a crystal clear image with no optical artifacts. In addition to this the prisms are achromatic, which means that both prisms are made by two glass materials having different optical properties. This specific technology significantly reduces the chromatic aberration from the image. Moreover, all the optical surfaces have the anti-reflection coatings to maximize the light output of your projector.

So it sounds like a backward step for you to get the new Panamorph. You may be able to upgrade your existing lens with the addition of the corrector element, and then it would be better focused in the vertical axis.

Gary

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post #22 of 163 Old 11-01-2012, 02:30 PM
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The CineVista has the astigmatism correction built into the optics. This means no additional optics are needed which can cut down on the brightness and sharpness of the image. The CineVista’s two element design keeps the image as sharp as possible with excellent light transmission.

There are good and “not so good” ways of correcting astigmatism, and to be honest we don’t know what method the Prismasonic uses. We can claim, however, that our system is the best of all the options available.

Regarding “chromatic aberration,” we have some exciting news on that front too. We have been working with the projector manufacturers in incorporating Electronic Color Correction (ECC) to eliminate CA by dialing it out electronically. Certain projectors from Epson, Sony and JVC already have this capability and we are working with the projector industry as a whole to make this a standard feature going forward.

www.panamorph.com

Ultra-Wide Home Cinema
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post #23 of 163 Old 11-02-2012, 06:06 PM
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"Regarding “chromatic aberration,” we have some exciting news on that front too. We have been working with the projector manufacturers in incorporating Electronic Color Correction (ECC) to eliminate CA by dialing it out electronically. Certain projectors from Epson, Sony and JVC already have this capability and we are working with the projector industry as a whole to make this a standard feature going forward."

This is great news.
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post #24 of 163 Old 11-02-2012, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Regarding “chromatic aberration,” we have some exciting news on that front too. We have been working with the projector manufacturers in incorporating Electronic Color Correction (ECC) to eliminate CA by dialing it out electronically. Certain projectors from Epson, Sony and JVC already have this capability and we are working with the projector industry as a whole to make this a standard feature going forward.

Sorry to sound like an old curmudgeon, but... I think I'm hearing a bit of snake oil being talked around here today.

Using projector CA compensation is the wrong way to go in my opinion, and probably won't work anyway. You limit your product to the range of projectors that have a chromatic aberration correction option. In any case the correction is mostly only in whole pixels, while chromatic aberration doesn't conveniently conform to that phenomenon, as well as being non-uniform from mid to edge of screen, and differently manifested on each side of the screen. I can't see a simple software pixel tweak working at all. At best a very slight improvement, if that.

Regarding single prism elements (as opposed to doublets), you'll always have chromatic aberration with them, and you can see it pretty readily. Unfortunately Gary Lightfoot is incorrect in his information that a "coating" (that Prismasonic is supposed to have applied to its prisms) can cure color aberration. It cannot, at all. Coatings are anti-reflection, not anti-color aberration measures. You need a prism or lens made of two different glasses ("crown" and "flint") to do that. There's no way around it except to have long throws, WAY longer than Home Cinema throws. I'm talking over 60 feet. At 15 feet, forget it.

It sounds like there's some curvature built into one or both of the prism faces if there's no separate "corrector" lens. If so, then this is by definition a fixed system, so will only work within a modest range of throw distances. You cannot have astigmatism correction that works at a wide range of throws without employing at least two lenses, with a variable air gap. Either that, or you've reinvented the science of optics. Fixed correction systems have only one perfect focus point. Move away from that and your image suffers. It's up to the user to decide how much they'll put up with.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you want to buy an anamorphic projection lens for under $1500, don't expect that it's solved color aberration and cured astigmatism for that price. There is no magic in this, only over-optimistic expectations.
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post #25 of 163 Old 11-03-2012, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie Bob II View Post

Unfortunately Gary Lightfoot is incorrect in his information that a "coating" (that Prismasonic is supposed to have applied to its prisms) can cure color aberration. It cannot, at all. Coatings are anti-reflection, not anti-color aberration measures.

Yep, you're right - sorry for the mix up and thanks for pointing it out. I hate missinformation. smile.gif

There are some projectors that can correct for pixel alignment errors that can adjust in smaller increments than a single pixel (I think Some Sony's and JVCs can for example) and do it in zones rather than the entire panel (so it probably could remove a lot of the visible CA), but I'm not sure if that's good for the image or not (will have to see it in action to know what the affects are). I would also think that people who are buying those pjs will probably be able to afford a lens that has CA correction built in. IMHO.

At least Panamorph are trying to give the market an entry level lens at a reasonable price. Most lenses are outside of the budget of many people. If this gives them a foot in the door it might make it easier to upgrade later (sell the lens for a better, probably used one). That's how I started - was a zoomer, then borrowed a cheap prism lens, then upgraded to a much better prism lens, then upgraded to a used and even better ISCO II. Still room for some improvement though.

Gary

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post #26 of 163 Old 11-03-2012, 06:05 AM
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The great part about the CineVista is the 2 element design. Having less glass in the light path helps withthe sharpness of the image.

This is also doubtful.

Having single element prisms means no CA (color aberration) correction, which is conceded anyway, as in...
Quote:
This lens does not include the chromatic correction feature available in our higher end lenses. Some pixel level color separation may be visible at the sides of the image, especially when viewing a test pattern during projector set-up. However, color separation should not be as noticeable at typical viewing distances with moving images.

While less glass surfaces may improve brightness by about 1% (at 0.5% per extra surface not used), more CA reduces sharpness considerably, as aberrated colors first merge into each other before they completely separate out from each other to greater than 1-pixel displacement. This partial overlap produces a softer, not sharper image when the colors (R+G+B pixels) are added together.
Quote:
I have a 125" 2.35:1 screen and my projector is about 15 feet back. The amount of pincushion I have is about 1/4" or less.

A 125" image from 15 feet has a throw ratio of 1.9 (based on 16:9 width). Pincushion from this image size at this throw ratio is about 0.7", not "1/4 inch or less". The only way you could get this figure would be by tilting the lens so that pincushion at one extreme - top or bottom - is reduced at the expense of increasing it at the other extreme. If it's reduced to "1/4 inch or less" at, say, the top, it will be well over an inch at the bottom. Top and bottom edge pincushions add up to 1.4" ... reduce one and you increase the other.

I would suggest measuring again. Balanced (i.e. at top and bottom) 1/4 inch pincushion at that throw ratio is impossibly low.
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At least Panamorph are trying to give the market an entry level lens at a reasonable price.

Agreed. But let's not over-egg its capabilities.
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post #27 of 163 Old 11-06-2012, 03:51 PM
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Sorry to sound like an old curmudgeon, but... I think I'm hearing a bit of snake oil being talked around here today.

Using projector CA compensation is the wrong way to go in my opinion, and probably won't work anyway. You limit your product to the range of projectors that have a chromatic aberration correction option. In any case the correction is mostly only in whole pixels, while chromatic aberration doesn't conveniently conform to that phenomenon, as well as being non-uniform from mid to edge of screen, and differently manifested on each side of the screen. I can't see a simple software pixel tweak working at all. At best a very slight improvement, if that.


We understand your skepticism, however, we literally were experimenting with the Epson 5020 the other day, and it has multi-zone panel correction with much finer adjustment than a whole pixel. I was honestly able to dial out almost all the lateral chromatic aberration on both sides of the screen individually for red and blue. We have a Sony HW50ES in house right now with the same type of correction and again, it is multi-zone and allows for shifting of only a fraction of a pixel. With the multi-zone capability it is easy (yet time consuming) to correct for the variable lateral chromatic across the width of the screen. It’s simple a matter of choosing each zone, tweaking red and blue (in the horizontal dimension only), then moving on to the next zone. With each of these projectors there are more than enough zones and fine adjustment to almost completely dial out the chromatic aberration. Is it quick? No. Is it easy? Yes. And part of our effort with projector manufacturers is to make this a much quicker process by building in some macro capabilities for the adjustments.

Please know that we at Panamorph are not in the business of peddling any kind of snake oil. While I always appreciate healthy skepticism, we feel that disclosure of technical facts is important for our products, since they are not the simplest to understand. We are genuinely trying to make high performance anamorphic available to a whole new range of customers. While I would literally say that somewhere between 80 – 90% of consumers who see the CineVista in action will never even notice the lateral chromatic, we are still working with the projector manufacturers to solve the lateral chromatic issue for anyone who wants to get the very best performance out of their system. Panamorph has worked very hard to make sure almost every single HT projector on the market has the proper scaling modes for anamorphic, and now we are leveraging our excellent relationships with all of the projector manufacturers to make sure that the chromatic correction feature will filter down to all price ranges of projector as well. Will this matter to the average consumer? Probably not, but we are trying to ensure that consumers who do want the very best performance can get it without spending thousands of dollars extra. Again, our excellent relationships with the projector manufacturers means that we can influence them to add this feature at more attractive price points.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you want to buy an anamorphic projection lens for under $1500, don't expect that it's solved color aberration and cured astigmatism for that price. There is no magic in this, only over-optimistic expectations.

No, and of course Panamorph has never claimed to solve both issues with the CineVista. What it does do is open up the anamorphic experience to whole new range of customers, who are very likely be so impressed by the experience itself that they will never notice the chromatic to begin with. However, if the CineVista - with its built in astigmatism correction - is paired with a projector with multi-zone chromatic correction, those who do care about lateral chromatic aberration have an easy way of correcting it. Our efforts right now are concentrated around making sure that that correction will be commonly available in the next generation of HT projectors. For those who want the very best optical solution to these issues, we offer the UH480 and the DC1. They are not going away smile.gif

John Schuermann, Filmmaker / Film Composer
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post #28 of 163 Old 11-07-2012, 02:17 AM
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@John Schuermann

Can you post some pics of the testing you are doing so we can evaluate this ourselves?

Thanks.
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post #29 of 163 Old 11-07-2012, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Baumann View Post

I would just be looking for a deal on a Panamorph UH480 lens which if you hunted around for a bit you could probably buy for the same price as this new lens or cheaper! wink.gif
Once in awhile some nicely priced Panamorph UH480 lenses come up on Videogon.
...Glenn smile.gif

Exactly!! That's what I did and I am loving my UH480. smile.gif

I do understand what Panamorph is trying to accomplish with this lens as there is a need in what most people consider to be a reasonable price to pay for a lens considering what their projector cost.

Mike

The Mayans were full of sh*t!!!
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post #30 of 163 Old 11-07-2012, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

Exactly!! That's what I did and I am loving my UH480. smile.gif
I do understand what Panamorph is trying to accomplish with this lens as there is a need in what most people consider to be a reasonable price to pay for a lens considering what their projector cost.
Mike


I look every day. All I have seen thus far that I could afford were C-stock chipped glass lenses. Sorry, but for that kind of money I want it darn near perfect. On top of that, I would end up with a lens and no transport. At least what I have now is motorized and remote controlled.
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