Anamorphic encoded Blu-Rays on the Horizon ! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 127 Old 10-31-2012, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Folded Space... Any news you can share? We would LOVE to see some 1080 anamorphic content!

What can we do to help?
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post #2 of 127 Old 11-01-2012, 12:00 AM
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Pray.
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post #3 of 127 Old 11-01-2012, 04:46 AM
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I wish Folded Space [Panamorph?] all the best with this and really hope we do see this exciting spec adopted into the BD format soon.

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post #4 of 127 Old 11-01-2012, 12:21 PM
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Thanks everyone, for checking in smile.gif

We are making sure and steady progress with the studios and BDA. As you can imagine, getting in front of all of the right people is a time consuming task. However, I can report that one studio is moving to advanced testing of the process and we have two others lined up for presentations. Unfortunately, due to NDAs in place I can't really disclose much more.

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post #5 of 127 Old 11-01-2012, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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John: That's good news, thanks. Well, it sounds like it is. Many of us here are pinned to the edge of the seat waiting on tidbits from your project. It would be outstanding to get anamorphic content on BRD. I'd take that over many other wish list items. Like 4-4-4 color.

I'd be grateful if you could keep tossing out a breadcrumb. Off-line or otherwise. It would be good to get some interest in the enthusiast community. Unless you prefer otherwise, I'll try to assist in that regard smile.gif

Let us know how it goes, to the extent you can.

Cheers,
Scott
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post #6 of 127 Old 11-01-2012, 04:40 PM
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This is very exciting news! I've always wondered why there wasn't a true anamorphic function on Blu ray since DVD had that function years ago. I'm stoked.

At the risk of opening a can of worms, I've been thinking now about all the possibilities that optical stretching can offer us.

What about using our anamorphic lenses in the vertical position so that they stretch 4:3 films to fill the entire 1920 raster? I did the math just now, and the optical stretch used to get 2.35 out of 16:9 (1.32x) is pretty much the same we'd need vertically to get a 4:3 image out of a 16:9 image. There's a difference, but it seems close enough.

If old 4:3 films were encoded this way, theoretically, no aspect ratio would need to lose any resolution anymore; no more letterboxes/pillar bars. You'd essentially have a 16:9 canvas of 1920x1080, and you'd either need to stretch if horizontally for scope, or vertically for classic 4:3. This is leaving out the odd balls like 1.85:1 films, 2.20:1 70mm, and the other odd ball ratios from the past. But it would cover probably 99% of the films we watch.

Thoughts? I have a feeling I missed something.
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post #7 of 127 Old 11-01-2012, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
What about using our anamorphic lenses in the vertical position so that they stretch 4:3 films to fill the entire 1920 raster? I did the math just now, and the optical stretch used to get 2.35 out of 16:9 (1.32x) is pretty much the same we'd need vertically to get a 4:3 image out of a 16:9 image. There's a difference, but it seems close enough.

It;s not "close enough" it's exact... as long as your system has a way of expanding by one-third, instead of vertically stretching by one third. Of course a pre-expanded anamorphic version of the movie (the subject of this thread) would help. Otherwise you need to have the feature available on your projector. Not all have it.

Re. "Close enough": You're probably getting slightly confused by using "2.35:1" as your widescreen bench mark. A 16:9 screen expanded is actually 2.37:1.

How to...

1. You expand a 4:3 movie by one third (or get a pre-expanded version from Folded Space). Everyone on-screen suddenly gets short and fat (art echoing life here, I think).

2. Rotate your anamorphic lens by 90 degrees (probably not a good idea for square prism systems - and some cylindricals - that don't rotate)

3. Your image will now be in 4:3 aspect, but larger, so you have to re-align your anamorphic, zoom your projector smaller (to 3/4 height), re-offset and re-focus it too (At last! A use for those "zoom memory" functions!")



You actually end up with a slightly brighter picture.

Here's why...

The reduction in size from having to zoom smaller increases the brightness by a theoretical 16/9 (1.78 times) - the inverse of 3/4-squared.

You then lose a few percent due to the reduced aperture (increased f-number) that zooming smaller causes, plus about 38% from the anamorphic lens (33% plus a few percent for transmission loss).

Say, 50% in all of your new brightness due to the smaller image is lost.

But you have an extra 78% to play with, so nett gain is around 25% to 30% in brightness over a same sized non-anamorphic image. Anamorphic finally makes something BRIGHTER!

There's some fiddling involved, but it does work OK. However, it's NOT something you'd do routinely. Best to save up a whole bunch of 4:3 movies for a marathon to make the best of the altered settings.
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post #8 of 127 Old 11-01-2012, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Years ago Isco made a contraption that would rotate the lens. Was $4k IIRC. Not sure it ever went to market. I could do it but it wouldn't be cheap, either.
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post #9 of 127 Old 11-01-2012, 08:47 PM
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Remember "Kong's Ring"? It was designed to do just that. $0 extra.
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post #10 of 127 Old 11-05-2012, 02:52 PM
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Keeping up interest in the enthusiast community is fine by me. If anyone has contacts within the studios or the BDA, even better. Even though we have good contacts we are working with now, you never know who the whole Folded Space idea will catch hold with and help push things along faster. As in everything, it all comes down to relationships.

Thanks everyone, for the cheerleading efforts smile.gif

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post #11 of 127 Old 11-05-2012, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I know the Dr. at the old Isco in Göttingen who received the Academy Award for Technical Achievement for cinema anamorphic work. He's German but regularly attends the Cinema trade shows and has contacts with Hollywood. If there is any kind of white paper etc you can share with me privately or otherwise I would be happy to see if we can get him engaged with his people. Of course I know the head guys with Schneider, too. Your project is important to all of us from my perspective. A bipartisan effort is appropriate smile.gif
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post #12 of 127 Old 11-06-2012, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

I know the Dr. at the old Isco in Göttingen who received the Academy Award for Technical Achievement for cinema anamorphic work. He's German but regularly attends the Cinema trade shows and has contacts with Hollywood. If there is any kind of white paper etc you can share with me privately or otherwise I would be happy to see if we can get him engaged with his people. Of course I know the head guys with Schneider, too. Your project is important to all of us from my perspective. A bipartisan effort is appropriate smile.gif

Thanks for the offer - much appreciated. I just sent you the white paper and marketing materials via e-mail. I've also attached our MFE / MFD Encode Decode and Maximize Your Experience Flyers here so folks can get an overview of exactly how our process works plus get a glance at some of our marketing material. Encode-Decode Flyer.pdf 1223k .pdf file Maximize Flyer.pdf.pdf 4545k .pdf file
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File Type: pdf Maximize Flyer.pdf.pdf (4.44 MB, 81 views)

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post #13 of 127 Old 11-06-2012, 04:28 PM
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Here is a copy of the White Paper plus a mock-up of a Blu-ray cover that we created. The Blu-ray cover was created to demonstrate to studios the "four viewing options on one disc" concept. Demo Blu-ray Cover.pdf 4205k .pdf file whitepaper-FS-v3.pdf 805k .pdf file
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File Type: pdf Demo Blu-ray Cover.pdf (4.11 MB, 181 views)
File Type: pdf whitepaper-FS-v3.pdf (805.0 KB, 73 views)

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post #14 of 127 Old 11-07-2012, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

Thanks for the offer - much appreciated. I just sent you the white paper and marketing materials via e-mail. I've also attached our MFE / MFD Encode Decode and Maximize Your Experience Flyers here so folks can get an overview of exactly how our process works plus get a glance at some of our marketing material. Encode-Decode Flyer.pdf 1223k .pdf file Maximize Flyer.pdf.pdf 4545k .pdf file

Both flyers look very good. I really like the 2nd one. Am I able to blog about this yet?

Mark Techer

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post #15 of 127 Old 11-08-2012, 04:51 PM
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Sure - and feel free to use any of this material. BTW, I will have updated flyers in the next day or so and will post them here. The White Paper is up to date. Mainly I will be adding the "UHD" descriptor to 4K references.

Thanks!

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post #16 of 127 Old 11-09-2012, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

Sure - and feel free to use any of this material. BTW, I will have updated flyers in the next day or so and will post them here. The White Paper is up to date. Mainly I will be adding the "UHD" descriptor to 4K references.
Thanks!

Cool, I'll wait for the latest flyers.

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post #17 of 127 Old 11-09-2012, 09:59 PM
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I can't see them doing it .DVD started off with it but the studios said to take it out.
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post #18 of 127 Old 11-11-2012, 04:50 PM
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I can't see them doing it .DVD started off with it but the studios said to take it out.

Not quite right. DVD is still natively 4 x 3. It has been used as a transitional format allowing an upgrade path to 16:9 by way of anamorphic enhancement. There was a time when (FOX) R1 titles were being released without the 16:9 enhancement. R4 pretty much had all their titles (except THE ABYSS) in 16:9 enhanced from the start so we didn't have the double dip issues you guys faced - we just had to wait a bit longer for the titles to be released.

Blue ray is natively 16:9. Phillips was the first to release 16:9 TVs in the early 1990s back when the world was 4 x 3. Now they have released 21:9 in a 16:9 world and anamorphic enhancement added to BD will once again provide that path to the next great thing. It will support everything BD has now including 3D and seamless branching.

Folded Space is awesome because it offers a range of viewing options from true Scope (21:9) back to letter boxed Scope as well as a cropping option for those that hate black bars but have no intention of moving away from 16:9. The studios would crazy not to adopt this because one disc pressing now caters for 4 markets including the anamorphic projection market.

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post #19 of 127 Old 11-11-2012, 07:04 PM
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I read a report and was told by a person in the no that they did have a true Scope (21:9) in the dvd standard.It was taken out.
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post #20 of 127 Old 11-12-2012, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

Not quite right. DVD is still natively 4 x 3.

Technically, DVD is neither 4:3 nor 16:9 natively, because DVD pixels are not square.

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post #21 of 127 Old 11-12-2012, 09:52 AM
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In my dealings with the studios and BDA, I have not encountered any mention of 'Scope ever being part of the DVD spec. Not sure how they would have even done it. I can say that we have encountered real interest from several studios and are setting up meetings with the others. It's important to keep in mind that part of what our process does is allow for higher resolution of 2.35:1 / 2.40:1 movies on UHD / 4K displays as well. While 21:9 and anamorphic projection continue to grow in popularity, most of the action is still in the 16:9 world. Our MFE process allows for up to 2560 x 1080 output to 16:9 UHD 4K displays and cropped 1920 x 1080 to both HD and UHD 4K 16:9 displays. The upshot here is that we are helping to create high resolution content for 4K UHD displays at the same time these sets are hitting the market.

As much as it pains us to include a cropped 16:9 format as an optional part of our process, the reality is that there is a large portion of the public that wants to watch movies this way. The knowledge that we are creating a system by which those who do care about widescreen films being presented properly will now have a way to do so with higher resolution takes the sting out of it wink.gif
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post #22 of 127 Old 11-12-2012, 11:03 AM
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Great work John! Thanks for all you are doing!

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post #23 of 127 Old 11-16-2012, 09:35 AM
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OK, here are updated documents on the Folded Space MFE (Multi-Format-Encoding) Blu-ray Enhancement process. These are now authorized for distribution, so feel free to read and / or distribute. Attached are the White Paper and a couple of flyers that outline the marketing approach and encode / decode process. whitepaper-FS-v3.pdf 805k .pdf file Encode-Decode Flyer.pdf 1211k .pdf file Maximize Flyer.pdf 4796k .pdf file
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File Type: pdf whitepaper-FS-v3.pdf (805.0 KB, 24 views)
File Type: pdf Encode-Decode Flyer.pdf (1.18 MB, 22 views)
File Type: pdf Maximize Flyer.pdf (4.68 MB, 32 views)

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post #24 of 127 Old 11-16-2012, 10:22 AM
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Here are some screenshots of Folded Space's MFE (Multi-Format-Encoding) in action! Just got authorization to post these. First, here is a screenshot of a test pattern. The image on the left was created by taking a 2560 x 1080 native test pattern, reducing it to 1920 x 810 letterbox, then scaling it back up to 2560 x 1080, using the best scaling algorithms available in professional Blu-ray mastering software. The image on the right was created by using the MFE process, taking the same 2560 x 1080 test pattern, reducing it to 1920 x 810 using MFE, then re-integrating the extra resolution hidden by MFE behind the black letterbox bars to recreate the 2560 x 1080 pattern. To create the side by side, a native 960 x 1080 crop was taken of each result for comparison's sake. On the test pattern, look at V1 and H1 plus the image of the building in particular. Make sure you download and view the images at full 1920 x 1080 resolution to clearly see what is going on.


Now, here is a screengrab of a scene from an actual film, with standard letterboxing on the left, MFE letterboxing on the right. The two sides of the image should be essentially identical, however, I have "unmasked" the MFE process to reveal the extra resolution that would normally be hidden behind the black bars with a Java graphic. Of course, the extra resolution has not been re-integrated yet. so both sides are the same resolution:


Now, here is a side by side of the same image with standard scaling from 1920 x 810 on the left, MFE re-integration of the resolution on the right (using the exact same process as outlined above re: the test pattern):


Here is another side by side screen grab. Check the detail in the grass, wood, tree and signs:


Here is a screen grab of the full anamorphic frame used to create the above image:


Lastly, I have attached the original test pattern file so you can compare to the MFE reconstructed version. This way you can see that we are playing fair and that the MFE process does not introduce any artifacts. 2560.bmp 8100k .bmp file
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post #25 of 127 Old 11-17-2012, 01:49 PM
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I own a Panamorph UH480 and have been very happy with it because I hate black bars and to my eye it does not degrade the image in anyway but it does not improve resolution either; so I was interested in seeing the new lens used with the Sony HW50 because with zonal correction, the lateral color could be eliminated and the image resolution improved. I was a lens designer for 30 years and I know from experience that lateral color is one of the few aberrations that cannot easily be eliminated through lens design. This is because it comes from manufacturing errors. which arise from the fact that the wedge on an individual lens element cannot be eliminated complelely. It is not a big problem in camrera lenses beccause the throw is only a couple of mm but in a home projection lens the throw can be anywhere from 10 to 40 ft. At the projection screen you get enough displacement that you will see the lateral color seperation even with a small amount of wedge in the projection lens elements.

I rode down to Colorado Springs and John was kind enough to give me a demonstration. He projected a white cross hatch pattern using the Sony HW50 and one could easily see the rainbow of lines starting at about 60 percent of the full field. Small color seperation near the center of the field becoming more prononced at the edge. At he edge of the field the three colors were completly seperated. In only 20 minutes he reduced ,through zonal adjustments all the lateral chromatic aberration until you could stand 3 ft from the screen and still not detect it. These adjustments improved the image dramatically.

I also got a chance to view Panamorph's MFE and MFD process, where the image resolution is increased by 33 percent using the normally unused black bar space. Can I say again that I really hate black bars. I thought the effect on resoulution would be hardly noticeable but to my surprise (the eye knows) the increased resolution appeared to increase the contrast and counterintuitvely the brightness. It was very obvious to see this effect on textured surfaces where details in patterns were much easier to see.
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post #26 of 127 Old 11-17-2012, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post

I own a Panamorph UH480 and have been very happy with it because I hate black bars and to my eye it does not degrade the image in anyway but it does not improve resolution either; so I was interested in seeing the new lens used with the Sony HW50 because with zonal correction, the lateral color could be eliminated and the image resolution improved. I was a lens designer for 30 years and I know from experience that lateral color is one of the few aberrations that cannot easily be eliminated through lens design. This is because it comes from manufacturing errors. which arise from the fact that the wedge on an individual lens element cannot be eliminated complelely. It is not a big problem in camrera lenses beccause the throw is only a couple of mm but in a home projection lens the throw can be anywhere from 10 to 40 ft. At the projection screen you get enough displacement that you will see the lateral color seperation even with a small amount of wedge in the projection lens elements.
I rode down to Colorado Springs and John was kind enough to give me a demonstration. He projected a white cross hatch pattern using the Sony HW50 and one could easily see the rainbow of lines starting at about 60 percent of the full field. Small color seperation near the center of the field becoming more prononced at the edge. At he edge of the field the three colors were completly seperated. In only 20 minutes he reduced ,through zonal adjustments all the lateral chromatic aberration until you could stand 3 ft from the screen and still not detect it. These adjustments improved the image dramatically.
I also got a chance to view Panamorph's MFE and MFD process, where the image resolution is increased by 33 percent using the normally unused black bar space. Can I say again that I really hate black bars. I thought the effect on resoulution would be hardly noticeable but to my surprise (the eye knows) the increased resolution appeared to increase the contrast and counterintuitvely the brightness. It was very obvious to see this effect on textured surfaces where details in patterns were much easier to see.


Exactly what is the MFE and MFD process? confused.gif

Is it some sort of software process or is it a lens hardware design element?



...Glenn smile.gif
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post #27 of 127 Old 11-17-2012, 07:25 PM
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Exactly what is the MFE and MFD process? confused.gif
Is it some sort of software process or is it a lens hardware design element?
...Glenn smile.gif

If you check out the Folded Space documents above you will see exactly what MFE is - a process for encoding extra resolution onto Blu-ray disc for 2.35:1 / 2.40:1 movies by hiding it "behind" the black bars of letterboxed content (MFE stands for Multi-Format-Encoding, MFD Multi-Format-Decoding). When the extra resolution is reintegrated with the letterboxed image, the result is true anamorphic Blu-ray at 1920 x 1080 resolution. We also have a predictive algorithm as part of the MFE process that allows for high quality 2560 x 1080 resolution images to be extracted from MFE encoded discs.

For a quick overview, download the MFE Folded Space flyers above. For more detailed information, download the white paper.

The beauty of the process is that it is totally backward compatible with current Blu-ray players. Any current / past Blu-ray player will play an MFE disc in standard letterbox format. Those with an MFD capable Blu-ray player can extract either anamorphic 16:9 at 1920 x 1080, widescreen 2.37:2 / 21:9 at 2560 x 1080 (for 4K or 21:9 projectors / displays), cropped 16:9 (at full 1920 x 1080 resolution), or standard letterboxed 16:9 at 1920 x 810. In other words, four different picture formats on one disc.

Sorry about any confusion...
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post #28 of 127 Old 11-20-2012, 03:14 AM
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This is the most exciting thing to happen since the release of the BD.

Mark Techer

I love my Constant Image Height system!
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post #29 of 127 Old 11-20-2012, 09:39 AM
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Are you in contact with RED so they get this in their RedRay player format from the beginning? (to be released 30-11-12)
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post #30 of 127 Old 11-21-2012, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

The beauty of the process is that it is totally backward compatible with current Blu-ray players. Any current / past Blu-ray player will play an MFE disc in standard letterbox format. Those with an MFD capable Blu-ray player can extract either anamorphic 16:9 at 1920 x 1080, widescreen 2.37:2 / 21:9 at 2560 x 1080 (for 4K or 21:9 projectors / displays), cropped 16:9 (at full 1920 x 1080 resolution), or standard letterboxed 16:9 at 1920 x 810. In other words, four different picture formats on one disc.
Sorry about any confusion...

Is there currently any blu-ray players that will decode MFD? Any manufacturers you know of who will have a firmware update for MFD for current players or any upcoming players that will incorporate this?

Thanks,
Mike

The Mayans were full of sh*t!!!
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