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post #1 of 70 Old 12-05-2012, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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For those of you with 2:35.1 do you have masking?

I really have never thought about 2:35 until I saw it about two weeks ago. The wife and I stopped into a store and in one of the rooms we watched 007 on a Wolf Cinema Pup and a Stewart 138" masking screen. When he went from 16:9 to 2:35 the wife and I both went WOW.... So I wanted it... but other than the initial wow it had do I really need it?

The projector will be a JVC RS66 and I currently have 110" Stewart Studiotek 130. I am thinking of going with the 138" Stewart with UltraMatte 150 and 98% of what I watch is Blu-Ray. I think I am leaning more to the 2:35 so now I am considering my options for masking. Do you think the electric masking systems are worth the extra $$$ or is it smarter to just use curtains to mask on the few times you need the 16:9 image?

Mike here at AVS has been a lot of help... I'm just looking for other options.
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post #2 of 70 Old 12-05-2012, 12:38 PM
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I have a 2.35:1 screen and find that most of my viewing is 2.35:1 so I've been a bit lax at sorting out side masking. I have experimented with using offcuts of black velvet clipped to my screen pelmet and 16:9 content did look better for it, but I wouldn't pay a lot of money to have it personally. If mine was a fixed screen I'd just use curtains, but that won't work on my electric drop down screen as the curtains would look silly when the screen wasn't down. However, I have to agree that seeing the masks move outwards before the 'main feature' starts looks very cool. cool.gif

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post #3 of 70 Old 12-05-2012, 12:40 PM
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I think if you are going with a RS66 you must have a scope screen with motorised masking!. To spend that amount on a projector the rest is a small price to pay if you really love the WOW factor.

Ive just ordered my RS66 also to replace my RS65. I have a scope 150" screen with motorised side masking for 4:3, 16:9 and 2.37, its the only way to go!
You can see it here.
http://www.rapalloav.co.nz/blog/rapallo-home-cinema-build

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post #4 of 70 Old 12-05-2012, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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RapalloAV very nice theater! Love the lights and curtains there as well. Wish I could start from scratch with a theater room... Great job

Thanks Kelvin two great points which brings me back to my current problem... If I keep searching for the wow factor my wife will kill me if she ever looks at the receipts wink.gif
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post #5 of 70 Old 12-05-2012, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clrv View Post

RapalloAV very nice theater! Love the lights and curtains there as well. Wish I could start from scratch with a theater room... Great job
Thanks Kelvin two great points which brings me back to my current problem... If I keep searching for the wow factor my wife will kill me if she ever looks at the receipts wink.gif
What projector are you replacing and have you seen the RS66 yet?

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post #6 of 70 Old 12-05-2012, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

What projector are you replacing and have you seen the RS66 yet?

I have not seen the RS66 I have gone into it with blind faith. I will be replacing a Optoma HD8200. I love the DLP but want the blacks of the JVC. Problem is there is no where near me I could demo a JVC. I did get to to see the Wolf which I think is a rebranded RS35.

Seeing you are replacing a RS65 I am hoping you will tell me I will be blown away wink.gif not to much info on the forums about the RS65/X90's
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post #7 of 70 Old 12-05-2012, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clrv View Post

I have not seen the RS66 I have gone into it with blind faith. I will be replacing a Optoma HD8200. I love the DLP but want the blacks of the JVC. Problem is there is no where near me I could demo a JVC. I did get to to see the Wolf which I think is a rebranded RS35.
Seeing you are replacing a RS65 I am hoping you will tell me I will be blown away wink.gif not to much info on the forums about the RS65/X90's

You are right, there is very little about the RS65 or X90 on the forum, but let me tell you it blows me away every time I turn it on. The image is spectacular and I'm still amazed with what I'm looking at. After some 35+ years as a cinema projectionist in top city houses of Auckland and Sydney, I never thought I would live to see images better than I ever saw in those theatres!

How much better my new RS66 will be over the RS65 I have no idea, but I trust it will be worth it!

Lets hope there is nothing better for awhile rolleyes.gif

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post #8 of 70 Old 12-05-2012, 01:37 PM
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Whether masking is "worth it" is always a subjective issue. Masking is something that anyone can see the benefit if you do an A/B, but not everyone is willing to go to the expense of buying commercial masking, or instead the effort to come up with
their own solution.

For me, and I'm not alone, masking is a must-have for my projection set up. It makes images look better and feels more professional and complete. I have the JVC RS55 projector and the Stewart ST-130 screen material in a room with total light control, and "bat-cave" like lack of reflection. And even then when my masking is not engaged I can see the lightened areas around the image on the unused screen. Sliding the masking in (in my case remote controlled) makes such a difference - the image "pops" more when against a razor-black edge, looks neater, and more cinematic. You just get more sucked into the image. Look at the threads for the Carada Masquerade systems and see how enthralled people are with the effect masking has on the image presentation.

Side curtains will work if need be. Best if they are black velvet, and sew something like a wooden dowel into the leading edges to keep a straight line for the picture sides. Otherwise, if you can swing it, something like a Carada Constant Image Height masking system would be perfect:

http://www.carada.com/masquerade-masking-system.aspx

Masking systems like those are one of the things you'll think "how could I have done without this?" once you own it.

As I've said before, personally I"d take a lesser projector and a masking system over a great projector and no masking.

Rich H


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post #9 of 70 Old 12-05-2012, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been looking at the masquerade as Mike at AVS suggested it and I do think it is a good option. I guess I was looking for someone to talk me out of it and save the extra $$$$

Thanks for all the input
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post #10 of 70 Old 12-05-2012, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Rapallo thanks for the insight about the RS65. I'm anxious to get the RS66 up and calibrated and see what it can do.

"Lets hope there is nothing better for awhile"

you know true 4K will be out eventually and we will have to upgrade again biggrin.gif
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post #11 of 70 Old 12-05-2012, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clrv View Post

Rapallo thanks for the insight about the RS65. I'm anxious to get the RS66 up and calibrated and see what it can do.
"Lets hope there is nothing better for awhile"
you know true 4K will be out eventually and we will have to upgrade again biggrin.gif

Its out now!

Murray Thompson

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post #12 of 70 Old 12-05-2012, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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redface.gif Ohh.... Well see I havent even got my projector and I am already behind the times

I was talking about JVC though
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post #13 of 70 Old 12-05-2012, 06:21 PM
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redface.gif Ohh.... Well see I havent even got my projector and I am already behind the times
I was talking about JVC though

Ok lets wait and see, yet many still prefer the look of e-shift over the Sony 4K

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post #14 of 70 Old 12-06-2012, 03:44 AM
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I don't have side masks on my AT screen and probably should get some. I had them on my solid screen back in 2006 and even though they tended to be open more times, they do add a nice touch to the CIH system.

Mark Techer

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post #15 of 70 Old 12-06-2012, 08:16 AM
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In my setup, the room is dark enough with all the velvet and black paint that I have never felt any need to make side masks. The 1.78 image really jumps off my HP screen and I just dont see the side bars. If I actually look for the bars, I can see them slightly but they never catch my eye like the top/bottom bars used to on my 1.78 screen when I watch a movie normally as one does. Even if I actively look for them, it always takes my eyes some time to actually adjust and see them which is in part why I never notice them while simply watching a movie. I do watch in a BLACK pit of a room though and always with the lights out. If I were to watch with any type of room lighting, the side bars do become visible at that point and masking would be a nice option to have.

If I were you OP, I would first test out your new screen without side masking to see if its even noticeable to you. Its hard to say for sure since I dont know how good your lighting control is, but you will be surprised if your results are anything like mine and you will be glad you saved the money by not going with a pricey masking system like the Masquerade. This was one of the unexpected bonuses of going to a 2.35 screen for me as the side bars honestly never catch my eye which I cant say for the top/bottom bars on my 1.78 screens before it.

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post #16 of 70 Old 12-06-2012, 08:37 AM
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My living room set up is quite light walled and white ceiling. I'm planing some improvements using a removable option to totally blacken 2.5-3 metres out from the screen, but when watching 1.85:1 content without lens, the side bars do light up quite considerably in my room. Some of it is slight overspill of light from my projector (a 4-5" wide strip of light each side) but most of it is the room reflections. As we will probably be watching quite a bit of TV sourced content over Christmas I'm going to dig out my two pieces of black velvet and sort out a way of hanging them up each side to improve the result. Perhaps if I had a total bat cave I'd get away without them, but I think I want to sort something out, even if it's not a lovely electrically controlled masking system like Rich H has. cool.gif

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post #17 of 70 Old 12-06-2012, 09:09 AM
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Ok, maybe I'm a masking evangelist here. Though I don't for a second think "everyone ought to mask his image" because we all have our own criteria and variables to weigh. And it can be pricey, or require some time for DIY, so far be it from me to say anyone ought to go this route. However, I like to say "But IF YOU DO go for masking, here are the benefits..."

With that in mind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

In my setup, the room is dark enough with all the velvet and black paint that I have never felt any need to make side masks. The 1.78 image really jumps off my HP screen and I just dont see the side bars. If I actually look for the bars, I can see them slightly but they never catch my eye like the top/bottom bars used to on my 1.78 screen when I watch a movie normally as one does. Even if I actively look for them, it always takes my eyes some time to actually adjust and see them which is in part why I never notice them while simply watching a movie.
If I were you OP, I would first test out your new screen without side masking to see if its even noticeable to you. Its hard to say for sure since I dont know how good your lighting control is, but you will be surprised if your results are anything like mine and you will be glad you saved the money by not going with a pricey masking system like the Masquerade. This was one of the unexpected bonuses of going to a 2.35 screen for me as the side bars honestly never catch my eye which I cant say for the top/bottom bars on my 1.78 screens before it.

Yes, whether to mask is a personal criteria for sure. But there are some issues to sort of untangle. There's the issue of "whether your unmasked image bothers you" and another of "Does masking make a difference?"

Certainly some portion of people (most?) live happily with unmasked systems, saying "I don't really notice the 'black bars,' they don't bother me, so I don't need masking." And of course that can be quite true.

But masking does make a difference WHEN you see it employed, and especially when you see it employed in your own system. Even in the darkest rooms, the best JVC projectors project far-from-black in the unused portions of the image - the unprojected black bar area "black levels" can't remotely compete with the true pitch black of black velvet. And that's something you really notice when you actually slide in the masking (as mentioned, I have the JVC RS55 in bat cave conditions).

Masking is much like the issue of presenting an image in a field of dark/black and removing visual clutter. Most people have projection set ups with all sorts of visual clutter near the image, be it their equipment racks with glowing buttons under or near the screen, speakers, and all manner of objects that light up around the image. And most people will say they "don't notice" these things because, after all "I'm watching the movie, not the objects around the screen." But the fact is they ARE seeing the things around the screen, any visual information IS part of the image presentation your brain is taking in. And that's what you realize when you actually take away that visual clutter. Once you see it gone, you realise it WAS contributing to the viewing experience...and not in an enhancing manner. My buddy now has my previous JVC RS20 projector in his set up. He's got a typical room, gray screen with gain, equipment under the screen, you can see the speakers, rug, ceiling, walls etc light up during movies etc. He thinks it looks great and it does. But the difference between how the image looks and the viewing experience at his place vs how it looks at mine (both with the RS20 and with my newer RS55) is HUGE. It's just a whole different ballgame as a viewing experience because the image floats in a sea of black which adds so much dimensionality and immersiveness. As my friend, and my other friend's with projectors, always comment when they watch movies in my room.

So, in fact, the things you don't really think you are noticing do contribute to the image and viewing experience, and you find this out when you actually see the difference with visual clutter stripped away.

Black projected areas on projection screens are, I find, the same way. You may not find yourself noticing them during movies, but once you see them actually gone with masking, suddenly you realise how much better it is and you want them gone. I occasionally try to watch unmasked images just for the heck of it. For instance I had my system in CIH mode recently, and switched to watching a 1:85:1 movie, without moving the side masking in.
If I didn't have masking would I think the image looks bad? Certainly not. It looked exellent! But having masking makes watching it this way really hard to do because I know it looks so much better once the true pitch black slides in to take over the unprojected area. And when I did that it was the usual "OMG that looks so much better!"

So it boils down to 2 questions one can ask on the issue:

Do I need masking?

and:

Do I want masking?

In the first case, it's nice to be able to do some experimenting, or have some experience, to see whether you are actually bothered by an unmasked image. If anything nags. If not, if you are just fine with an unmasked image then in that sense you don't "need" masking. And you have saved yourself some money or perhaps time. If you are nagged by the "black bar" areas on your screen, then you may "need" masking to feel happy with your system.

In the second case, masking DOES make an appreciable difference to the image presentation, and it boils down both to whether want to push the performance of your system/presentation to a higher level. Masking WILL elevate the experience of your system...you just have to ask whether this particular aspect is something you value enough to pay for or create for your system. (Much like controlling room reflections will enhance your image/viewing experience...how far do you want to go?).

Rich H


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post #18 of 70 Old 12-06-2012, 11:16 AM
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I figured you would come back with this type of response Rich. biggrin.gif I dont disagree with you and I am sure masking would make it better to some degree. The point I am making is simply this..........I was ALWAYS aware of the top/bottom bars when I had a 1.78 screen due to the projected light creating them for one, and two they are more in your field of vision vs bars off to the side in my experience and in my room.........they always NOTICEABLY distracted from the presentation. The side bars on my 2.35 screen in my room and my setup NEVER draw attention to themselves and I am quite simply never aware of them while watching a movie which is the exact opposite of my experience with the top/bottom bars on a 1.78 screen when projecting scope. I am sure a lot of this has to do with a black hole of a room with floors, walls, ceiling in black velvet and/or flat black paint and in conjunction with my BRIGHT pic coming off my HP screen at a relatively small 94" diag. I also NEVER watch with the room lights on or ANY ambient light as the room is completely closed off. In my room, the side bars flat out dont distract.

In light of the above, I would strongly suggest the OP try out the setup in his room first to determine if the side bars are a noticeable distraction or not as he might be surprised and might not feel any need to do any masking. If you do find that the side bars are distracting in your setup/room, then you can always add a masking solution at that point and if you find like me that the side bars are a complete and total non issue, you will have a nice extra chunk of $$$ in your pocket for something else. wink.gif

That is all I got. Good luck!

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post #19 of 70 Old 12-06-2012, 11:44 AM
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I know that if someone who currently doesn't have side masking was to install in in there own HT, in less than 5 mins they would never ever want to remove it! There is nothing better than viewing an image through a window surrounded by a complete black hole with lots of black velvet. Four sides of black masking really does give the illusion of the window that your arm can reach into.

It doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. I made mine with the Goelst track. It has RS232 and one can have up to three separate positions. I have set mine for 4:3, 16:9 and 2.37. The track is silent and when I go out to scope its very DRAMATIC and SILENT. My leading edges of velvet have a 3" pocket sown into them with 5mm MDF board inserted. This keeps the velvet very straight and flat next to the projected area. This system is a miniature of how its done in the cinemas.

Its not difficult to make and its fun to do it yourself rather than buy an off the self model.



http://www.goelst.nl/rail/products/products-nor/products-mot/

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post #20 of 70 Old 12-06-2012, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I figured you would come back with this type of response Rich. biggrin.gif

I understand. It was predictable of me. biggrin.gif:)

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post #21 of 70 Old 12-06-2012, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

I know that if someone who currently doesn't have side masking was to install in in there own HT, in less than 5 mins they would never ever want to remove it! There is nothing better than viewing an image through a window surrounded by a complete black hole with lots of black velvet. Four sides of black masking really does give the illusion of the window that your arm can reach into.
It doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. I made mine with the Goelst track. It has RS232 and one can have up to three separate positions. I have set mine for 4:3, 16:9 and 2.37. The track is silent and when I go out to scope its very DRAMATIC and SILENT. My leading edges of velvet have a 3" pocket sown into them with 5mm MDF board inserted. This keeps the velvet very straight and flat next to the projected area. This system is a miniature of how its done in the cinemas.
Its not difficult to make and its fun to do it yourself rather than buy an off the self model.
http://www.goelst.nl/rail/products/products-nor/products-mot/

I believe we have the same system from Goelst. It's truly a terrific, quality product isn't it? Though I went with hanging flat velvet panels vs curtains.

Something to note in case it's of use: Upon "learning" the Goelst codes into my universal remote, I found it very easy to introduce macros that gave me as many different intermediate pre-set stopping points as I wished. In my rather wacky system I think I have about 18 pre-sets for the Goelst and after over 2 years they continue to stop on a dime at exactly the same pre-set points (I've re-measured occasionally to check). Which re-enforces to me the quality of the motor (somfy I believe).

Though, I suppose running CIH all you need is the 3 pre-sets you already have.

Rich H


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post #22 of 70 Old 12-06-2012, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I believe we have the same system from Goelst. It's truly a terrific, quality product isn't it? Though I went with hanging flat velvet panels vs curtains.
Something to note in case it's of use: Upon "learning" the Goelst codes into my universal remote, I found it very easy to introduce macros that gave me as many different intermediate pre-set stopping points as I wished. In my rather wacky system I think I have about 18 pre-sets for the Goelst and after over 2 years they continue to stop on a dime at exactly the same pre-set points (I've re-measured occasionally to check). Which re-enforces to me the quality of the motor (somfy I believe).
Though, I suppose running CIH all you need is the 3 pre-sets you already have.

Yes the motor and track work beautifully and always stops in exactly the same place every single time. One press on the ipad moves the masking/cineslide and Lumagen stretch all at the very same time. Seamless and silent presentation that gets all the wows!

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post #23 of 70 Old 12-06-2012, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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The Goelst idea is very intriguing but it looks as there are no distributers here in the US.

R Harkness did you have it shipped over or did you find someone in Canada?
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post #24 of 70 Old 12-06-2012, 06:29 PM
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The Goelst idea is very intriguing but it looks as there are no distributers here in the US.
R Harkness did you have it shipped over or did you find someone in Canada?

I imported mine to NZ from Canada.

Murray Thompson

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post #25 of 70 Old 12-06-2012, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by clrv View Post

The Goelst idea is very intriguing but it looks as there are no distributers here in the US.
R Harkness did you have it shipped over or did you find someone in Canada?

There is a distributor in USA. I imported into Toronto from Goelst America (in Georgia, I believe).. You'll find info in this list:

http://www.goelst.nl/curtain/contact/

Rich

(It can be a bit confusing Googling the company Goelst because various different websites can come up, I guess for various distributors, and they don't always have the same info).

Rich H


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post #26 of 70 Old 12-06-2012, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

I imported mine to NZ from Canada.

BTW, boy that's a nice looking theater.

I think we discussed this before but we both went the route of using colored lights on our screens (or you at least on the curtains covering your screen). I use remote controlled LED lights that can be any color, or alternate/fade between colors.
To me it makes so much sense because we have these massive screens just sitting there as a focal point in the room, and a big blank white rectangle isn't necessarily the most attractive or interesting site. Like a big, unused canvas.

Why not use the screen for drama? Just add some colored light onto the screen and the mood and aesthetics in the room is much enhanced (IMO). As is shown so well in the pictures of your home theater.

I love choosing colors on the screen depending on the mood I'm in, or the dramatic effect I want for the time.

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post #27 of 70 Old 12-06-2012, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

BTW, boy that's a nice looking theater.
I think we discussed this before but we both went the route of using colored lights on our screens (or you at least on the curtains covering your screen). I use remote controlled LED lights that can be any color, or alternate/fade between colors.
To me it makes so much sense because we have these massive screens just sitting there as a focal point in the room, and a big blank white rectangle isn't necessarily the most attractive or interesting site. Like a big, unused canvas.
Why not use the screen for drama? Just add some colored light onto the screen and the mood and aesthetics in the room is much enhanced (IMO). As is shown so well in the pictures of your home theater.
I love choosing colors on the screen depending on the mood I'm in, or the dramatic effect I want for the time.

Yes Rich you are so right. My colour changes on the curtain take approx 3mins for a full cycle of RGB to the top and the bottom of the curtain. They cycle through the same colours top and bottom, then they go through the changes of different colour on the top to the bottom. This creates beautiful colour mixes and does create the drama Im looking for. They go through a multitude of mixes so the results are pretty special especially when I set up a show with an Overture at the start, while the rest of the house lights slowly dim. I use the Overtures and Entr'actes on the start of big shows that used to have them like "Laurence of Arabia" Cinema presentations used to be this way, but sadly today its all lacking!

Murray Thompson

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post #28 of 70 Old 12-07-2012, 04:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

There is a distributor in USA. I imported into Toronto from Goelst America (in Georgia, I believe).. You'll find info in this list:
http://www.goelst.nl/curtain/contact/
Rich
(It can be a bit confusing Googling the company Goelst because various different websites can come up, I guess for various distributors, and they don't always have the same info).


I have no clue how I over looked that. I even went to the contact page. Thanks
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post #29 of 70 Old 12-07-2012, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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So did you all go with the Curtain Rail System? I have sent in my info for a quote from them.
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post #30 of 70 Old 12-07-2012, 08:19 AM
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So did you all go with the Curtain Rail System? I have sent in my info for a quote from them.

I went with the Panel Track system:

http://www.goelst.nl/rail/products/products-pan/

Because I preferred the look of flat panels vs curtains (and I think the straightness of panels make for a better masking system). If you get the motorized version they combine it with their automated curtain transport motor system:

http://www.goelst.nl/rail/products/products-nor/products-mot/

Rich

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