Receivers with Vertical Stretch - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 12-11-2012, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello,

I have a UH380 lens and am in the market for a new receiver. I am trying to find out if any of the newer models like the onkyo 818 or any of the new pioneer elite's have the necessary scaling for a lens setup. I would like to simplify my setup a bit and having the receiver do the scaling would help a lot.

Thanks

Darin
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post #2 of 21 Old 12-11-2012, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I pulled up the manual and see it shows 4 aspect ratios .... 4 x 3, full, zoom, and wide zoom... Does this mean I am out of luck?

Darin
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post #3 of 21 Old 12-12-2012, 05:37 AM
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Yes. You will need a video processor or a bluray player that will vertically stretch the image.

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post #4 of 21 Old 12-12-2012, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I have found 2 receivers that I know for sure do vertical stretch. Both the Denon 4310CI and 4810CI would work but I was hoping either pioneer or Onkyo would follow with their new models.

Also, is there a list of bluray players that do vertical stretch? I had read that the OPPO blayers do it, I thought it didn't work with all disks... am I remembering this correctly?

I have a JVC RS1 and a Lumagen HDP which does a nice job, But I am thinking about having the receiver do it. I can't currently output 1080P/24 to the HDP and then output that to the projector. If I could keep it simply in a receiver, I would prefer that route.

Darin
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post #5 of 21 Old 12-12-2012, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I have grabbed an image from the Onkyo 818 manual. It has some fairly sophisticated scaling.

"Dual Core Video Engine with HQV Vida (1080p) and Marvell Qdeo™ (4K) Processing
ISF (Imaging Science Foundation) Video Calibration for Optimal Video Performance"

I have also grabben an image describing their different modes. Is their 4x3 mode the same as vertical stretch?


I was trying to remember the button on the Lumagen scaler and was thinking it was labelled 4x3 also.

Any thoughts?
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post #6 of 21 Old 12-18-2012, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dj7675 View Post

Hello,
I have a UH380 lens and am in the market for a new receiver. I am trying to find out if any of the newer models like the onkyo 818 or any of the new pioneer elite's have the necessary scaling for a lens setup. I would like to simplify my setup a bit and having the receiver do the scaling would help a lot.
Thanks
Darin

You bring up an excellent point dj7675. There are many other devices that can handle the anamorphic scaling modes if your projector doesn't have that capability. This is one topic that can really help us manufacturers out in offering other solutions. I know that Oppo has a solution for the vertical stretch mode. The BDP-103 and BDP-105 both have this mode. I believe that their older models couldn't do the vertical stretch with JAVA encoded discs. I will have to do some research on that.

Here's a list of components that i know of that have the vertical stretch and horizontal squeeze modes.

Vertical stretch and horizontal squeeze
- Lumagen's RadianceMini-3D, RadianceXS-3D and RadianceXE-3D
- DVDO's iScan Duo and EDGE Green

Vertical stretch only
Denon AVR-4310CI and AVR4810CI (Don't know about the new AVR-4520CI)
Oppo BDP-103 and BDP 105

I am not sure about the Onkyo receiver you mentioned. From the picture it doesn't look like the 4:3 mode is the vertical stretch mode. In fact, most of the time the 4:3 mode (horizontal squeeze) is for watching 16:9 with an anamorphic lens in place. I will see what I can find out about the Onkyo and Pioneer receivers.

If anyone knows of any other options please post the specifics. This information is valuable to those who don't have a projector compatible with an anamorphic lens and having a list on the forum is very helpful. smile.gif

www.panamorph.com

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post #7 of 21 Old 12-18-2012, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dj7675 View Post

I have grabbed an image from the Onkyo 818 manual. It has some fairly sophisticated scaling.
"Dual Core Video Engine with HQV Vida (1080p) and Marvell Qdeo™ (4K) Processing
ISF (Imaging Science Foundation) Video Calibration for Optimal Video Performance"
I have also grabben an image describing their different modes. Is their 4x3 mode the same as vertical stretch?

I was trying to remember the button on the Lumagen scaler and was thinking it was labelled 4x3 also.
Any thoughts?

The Zoom mode is what you need. I have a 709 and I think I tried it once, can confirm again. I normally use the projector's stretch mode though.

The only downside is that 709 does not do it in 3D. In the above picture from the manual, see the footnote *2. My 709 manual states there that wide mode is fixed in 3D. Maybe it's has changed in the 818 generation.
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post #8 of 21 Old 12-18-2012, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russelliht View Post

You bring up an excellent point dj7675. There are many other devices that can handle the anamorphic scaling modes if your projector doesn't have that capability. This is one topic that can really help us manufacturers out in offering other solutions. I know that Oppo has a solution for the vertical stretch mode. The BDP-103 and BDP-105 both have this mode. I believe that their older models couldn't do the vertical stretch with JAVA encoded discs. I will have to do some research on that.
Here's a list of components that i know of that have the vertical stretch and horizontal squeeze modes.
Vertical stretch and horizontal squeeze
- Lumagen's RadianceMini-3D, RadianceXS-3D and RadianceXE-3D
- DVDO's iScan Duo and EDGE Green
Vertical stretch only
Denon AVR-4310CI and AVR4810CI (Don't know about the new AVR-4520CI)
Oppo BDP-103 and BDP 105
I am not sure about the Onkyo receiver you mentioned. From the picture it doesn't look like the 4:3 mode is the vertical stretch mode. In fact, most of the time the 4:3 mode (horizontal squeeze) is for watching 16:9 with an anamorphic lens in place. I will see what I can find out about the Onkyo and Pioneer receivers.
If anyone knows of any other options please post the specifics. This information is valuable to those who don't have a projector compatible with an anamorphic lens and having a list on the forum is very helpful. smile.gif

Media players based upon Realtek 1186 like Med1000x3d are also able to do a vertical stretch and it also works in 3D. Not sure about Java discs, but I tried with Prometheus 3D and Med1000x3d was able to stretch it.
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post #9 of 21 Old 12-21-2012, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dukeav View Post

The Zoom mode is what you need. I have a 709 and I think I tried it once, can confirm again. I normally use the projector's stretch mode though.
The only downside is that 709 does not do it in 3D. In the above picture from the manual, see the footnote *2. My 709 manual states there that wide mode is fixed in 3D. Maybe it's has changed in the 818 generation.

If you can check with your 709, that would be great. I emailed Onkyo and they said it does not but but sometimes they aren't familiar with what is needed. Thanks for checking smile.gif

russelliht-A list would be nice. I have an RS1 which does vertically stretch. I have the Onkyo 818 coming and will try the different modes including zoom as well and report back. It appears to be a great receiver and if it did it it would be the icing on the cake. If it doesn't I will problably to the OPPO route.

dukeav-What are some media players that have that chipset?

My Lumagen HDP with DVI is just starting to feel a bit dated and would prefer to simplify my setup a bit without a video processor if possible. We will see how this goes.

Darin
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post #10 of 21 Old 12-21-2012, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Also,

Did a bit more searching around and found a guy that says he is using the Onkyo 707 for vertical stretch. He also says he is using the "zoom" feature to do so. From the image from the manual, it certainly looks from the circles that it is in fact not zoomed but stretched vertically. The "wide zoom" feature looks like the mode I would consider a traditional zoom setting. This would be very cool if this is the case on the 818. From the 818 thread the scaler / video output on the 818 is very good. The receiver is arriving today, so hopefully I will be able to post what I find tonight or tomorrow. Below is a link

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1287708/is-zooming-the-same-as-vertical-stretch
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post #11 of 21 Old 12-21-2012, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by dj7675 View Post

If you can check with your 709, that would be great. I emailed Onkyo and they said it does not but but sometimes they aren't familiar with what is needed. Thanks for checking smile.gif
russelliht-A list would be nice. I have an RS1 which does vertically stretch. I have the Onkyo 818 coming and will try the different modes including zoom as well and report back. It appears to be a great receiver and if it did it it would be the icing on the cake. If it doesn't I will problably to the OPPO route.
dukeav-What are some media players that have that chipset?
My Lumagen HDP with DVI is just starting to feel a bit dated and would prefer to simplify my setup a bit without a video processor if possible. We will see how this goes.
Darin

Yes, I checked again 709 does stretch.

There are many Realtek 1186 based players,
http://www.iboum.com/net-media-players.php?sort=sortdate&chip=real6&rp=creal6.

But Med1000x3d is the best of the lot, the interface is good and firmware development is very active. There is a thread right here http://www.avsforum.com/t/1420605/med1000x3d-high-definition-3d-multimedia-player.

I am going to stretch only using Med1000x3d now onwards because one of the advantages of stretching at source is that the player GUI and controls are always on screen. Stretching via PJ or video processor might lose them.
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post #12 of 21 Old 12-21-2012, 02:49 PM
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Hi guys, the Onkyos fully support a-lens use for non-3D. I don't know if the newer models support it for 3D.

In the manual pages that have been posted, "zoom" supports A-lens use for 2.35 content. Full is for no A-lens non-2.35 AR content. "4:3" or sometimes "normal" (?) is for non-2.35 AR material with the a-lens in place. I've been using this back to the 886 for early projectors such as the RS1. smile.gif
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post #13 of 21 Old 12-21-2012, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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My 818 has arrived and will set it up tonight. Looking forward to removing my scaler and simplifying things a bit. I also located the discrete codes for the 818 so I can program my URC remote to change scaling modes with 1 button push. We will see how it goes... Thanks for chiming in. I hope this info is helpful to others, in particular if you don't want the extra expense or hassle of adding an extra scaler...

Darin
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post #14 of 21 Old 12-23-2012, 04:20 AM
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I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the 818. I am in the process of considering a new AVR to replace my Onkyo NR-905. I currently use a DVDO edge to do my vertical stretch but replacing both with one device seems attractive.
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post #15 of 21 Old 12-23-2012, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Got the onkyo nr818 installed and great news.. It does vertical stretch perfectly. The scaling and video processing are very good. Receiver is really fantastic. Under wide mode just select zoom and it performs vertical stretch for use with lens like other Onkyo users have said. I am using a urc 880 remote and with it can have one button access to the zoom modes. Select full for use without lens. For those wanting to forgoe the expense or extra component to perform scaling, this receiver works great. Great sound and features too. Amazon now has them at just $679.
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post #16 of 21 Old 01-03-2013, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dj7675 View Post

Got the onkyo nr818 installed and great news.. It does vertical stretch perfectly. The scaling and video processing are very good. Receiver is really fantastic. Under wide mode just select zoom and it performs vertical stretch for use with lens like other Onkyo users have said. I am using a urc 880 remote and with it can have one button access to the zoom modes. Select full for use without lens. For those wanting to forgoe the expense or extra component to perform scaling, this receiver works great. Great sound and features too. Amazon now has them at just $679.

Thanks for the review. I started looking into AVRs that have 11.2 processing (9 amps) along with the vertical stretch feature. At the moment, I think the only AVR that meets that criteria is the Denon 4520CI. Unfortunately, it sounds like there are no discrete codes on the 4520CI to change the picture mode. Therefore, you need to navigate through the menu (macros are not supposed to work either) to make the change. Total bummer

Thanks again for the review.

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post #17 of 21 Old 01-15-2013, 10:00 AM
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Following up with Scaling issues VStretch HSqueeze; Looks like the Lumagen is the way to go.

If BD-Java content.

"Dear Christian

At the time it is not possible to change because of legal reasons, You have to use an external source to stretch Java locked discs.

Best Regards
Bjorn
OPPO European Support Engineer"
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post #18 of 21 Old 01-15-2013, 10:18 AM
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Following up with Scaling issues VStretch HSqueeze; Looks like the Lumagen is the way to go.

If BD-Java content.

To be fair there is a difference in vertical stretch between different scalers and displays: My Mini3D does a better job (for 2D I don't watch 3D anyway) than the JVC built in one for example. I'd wager that the scaler built into an AV amplifier won't be as good either as typically they would (hopefully) be spending the budget on better sound and the video processing is likely to be second rate. There was a poster on the VW1000 owners thread that had deinterlacing issues using his Denon amp for example, all resolved once he set the amp to bypass.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #19 of 21 Old 01-16-2013, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by T.Wells View Post


Thanks for the review. I started looking into AVRs that have 11.2 processing (9 amps) along with the vertical stretch feature. At the moment, I think the only AVR that meets that criteria is the Denon 4520CI. Unfortunately, it sounds like there are no discrete codes on the 4520CI to change the picture mode. Therefore, you need to navigate through the menu (macros are not supposed to work either) to make the change. Total bummer

Thanks again for the review.

T.Wells


As an owner of a Denon 4520CI, I can confirm what you say about the lack of discreet codes.  It does require menu navigation and macros do not work due to the cursor resetting to different positions which prevents a repeatable sequence of inputs.  As for any comparison with a Lumagen Mini3D, I can't say and I no longer use my old DVDO VP50.  I can say that I have used the stretch in my Oppo BD-93, my old Sim2 C3X and my current Epson 6010 and none of them are any better than the stretch in the Denon.  The Epson 6010 is the easiest to use since it has a button on the remote and is the last device in the chain, but I often find myself using the menu of the Denon anyway.  I guess I should take still images from all 3 devices of the same scene and try to observe any differences, but haven't noticed anything obvious so far.


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post #20 of 21 Old 10-25-2013, 01:36 PM
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Hi guys, I'm resurrecting this thread because I have an onkyo 818 and I want to buy the epson 5030 along with a panamorph cinevista.

Can anyone confirm that the onkyo wide modes also work for 3d content on the 818?

Also, is there a better way to use the cinevista, such as a custom-made slider to make it move out of the way when not needed? I hate the idea of resizing all 1920 wide content down to 1440 just for convenience. Would probably never be able to tell the difference but I'm nuts like that smile.gif.

Thanks!
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post #21 of 21 Old 10-28-2013, 05:55 PM
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As an owner of a Denon 4520CI, I can confirm what you say about the lack of discreet codes.  It does require menu navigation and macros do not work due to the cursor resetting to different positions which prevents a repeatable sequence of inputs.  As for any comparison with a Lumagen Mini3D, I can't say and I no longer use my old DVDO VP50.  I can say that I have used the stretch in my Oppo BD-93, my old Sim2 C3X and my current Epson 6010 and none of them are any better than the stretch in the Denon.  The Epson 6010 is the easiest to use since it has a button on the remote and is the last device in the chain, but I often find myself using the menu of the Denon anyway.  I guess I should take still images from all 3 devices of the same scene and try to observe any differences, but haven't noticed anything obvious so far.

All,

I wanted to update this thread with new information as the above is incorrect. The 4520CI does have discrete codes for vertical stretch. They are included in the RS-232 commands and have worked for me.

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