Different Ratio Setups - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 38 Old 01-10-2013, 11:37 PM - Thread Starter
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1. Hi i've been reading and reading and my head is full of numbers. I'd just like as simple of an answer as there is. If I want to avoid the black bars on the top and bottom then I don't do standard 16:9 and instead do 2:40 right? Most of the blu rays I look at are in 2:40.

2. What is the difference between 2:40 and 2:35?

3. What will a bluray in 1:78 look like on a 2:40 screen?

4. I also have a pretty extensive library of VHS movies that I still enjoy(the old school grittiness of them) Will VHS/4:3 format work on any of these screen ratios better than another?

Thanks.

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post #2 of 38 Old 01-11-2013, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

1. Hi i've been reading and reading and my head is full of numbers. I'd just like as simple of an answer as there is. If I want to avoid the black bars on the top and bottom then I don't do standard 16:9 and instead do 2:40 right? Most of the blu rays I look at are in 2:40.

2. What is the difference between 2:40 and 2:35?

3. What will a bluray in 1:78 look like on a 2:40 screen?

4. I also have a pretty extensive library of VHS movies that I still enjoy(the old school grittiness of them) Will VHS/4:3 format work on any of these screen ratios better than another?

Thanks.

1. Correct, however you could use masking on a 16.9 screen to eliminate the black bars, so the question should really be which AR do you want to be the larger one? Seeing as you've said you mainly watch scope titles then it stands to reason to display them as large as possible.

2. Negligible.

3. It will have black bars either side of the image, so the reverse effect of a 2.35:1 film on a 16.9 screen.

4. It will work the same, the only difference is the width of the bars either side of the image. On a 16.9 screen the bars will appear the same size as the bars of a 1.85:1 film on a scope screen. The black bars either side of 4.3 content on a scope screen will be twice as wide because the image remains the same width but the scope screen is much wider. I would advise too that VHS content displayed via a projector can look very ordinary, especially if you've been watching blu-ray content before hand.

Feel free to ask for further explanation. I've made it as simple as possible but it is still a confusing subject for newcomers.
Cheers.

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post #3 of 38 Old 01-11-2013, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for making it simple for a noob sir haha.

I keep reading about this masking, are there any pictures or links how to properly use such a technique? I just don't want something looking "generic" on my screen wall.

See that is the pickle that I am in. I still watch my old VHS tapes quite a bit and i've heard sports and TV can only use the 16:9 when in HD which gets considerably smaller if displayed on a Scope screen.

I'm an all around kind of guy as far as what will be watched on this screen, mostly movies but different formats.

I've also been looking at projectors that have power lens shift and memory to switch between the Scope and 16:9 with ease and the only one in my price range is the Panasonic AE7000. But still even with that feature making it easier to switch I would still almost need 2 screens to get the full effect of the Scope and 16:9 ratios....right? Does the cinescope image shrink at all on a 16:9 or is it just the black bars because it's a shorter image. the width is the same correct?

I've just put a LOT of time and work in to my theater to skimp out on screen size now.

Also, which format requires the projector to be half the distance to the screen because of zoom and shift.

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post #4 of 38 Old 01-11-2013, 09:55 AM
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Here is a tutorial with pictures that should help answer some of your questions.

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post #5 of 38 Old 01-11-2013, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Here is a tutorial with pictures that should help answer some of your questions.

Yes that explains it perfectly.

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post #6 of 38 Old 01-11-2013, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

Thank you for making it simple for a noob sir haha.

I keep reading about this masking, are there any pictures or links how to properly use such a technique? I just don't want something looking "generic" on my screen wall.

See that is the pickle that I am in. I still watch my old VHS tapes quite a bit and i've heard sports and TV can only use the 16:9 when in HD which gets considerably smaller if displayed on a Scope screen.

I'm an all around kind of guy as far as what will be watched on this screen, mostly movies but different formats.

I've also been looking at projectors that have power lens shift and memory to switch between the Scope and 16:9 with ease and the only one in my price range is the Panasonic AE7000. But still even with that feature making it easier to switch I would still almost need 2 screens to get the full effect of the Scope and 16:9 ratios....right? Does the cinescope image shrink at all on a 16:9 or is it just the black bars because it's a shorter image. the width is the same correct?

I've just put a LOT of time and work in to my theater to skimp out on screen size now.

Also, which format requires the projector to be half the distance to the screen because of zoom and shift.

You really need to take the time to thoroughly read the link Josh Z has provided, and more importantly understand the information contained, otherwise you'll just go around in circles.

Most of us with CinemaScope setups enjoy different formats also, so you're not Robinson Crusoe there. The whole point of a CIH setup is to display movies how the director intended them to be viewed, that is 16.9 movies wider than 4.3 movies, and scope movies wider than 16.9 movies.

Yes a scope movie displayed on a 16.9 screen will be the same width as a 16.9 movie but will be shorter in height because it is a different ratio. The same thing occurs with 16.9 movies displayed on a traditional 4.3 tv. It's all in the link Josh Z has provided and explains it much better than what I or anyone else here can.

Cheers and good luck.

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post #7 of 38 Old 01-11-2013, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by crazy4daisy View Post

It's all in the link Josh Z has provided and explains it much better than what I or anyone else here can.

Well, not anyone else. One of us here did write it. smile.gif

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post #8 of 38 Old 01-11-2013, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Well, not anyone else. One of us here did write it. smile.gif

Hehe my bad, apologies Josh! I read that article when it first came out on Hidefdigest and loved it, but I took no notice of who wrote it, and checking the link and seeing it again during this thread and again I didn't take note of who wrote it! Sorry again.

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post #9 of 38 Old 01-11-2013, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok that article is very in depth and I think I understand HALF of it so far lol. He was talking about keeping the height of the screen the same but using curtains to mask the different widths of the 3 ratios. Right? Or did I read that totally wrong. See I cannot afford a high end projector with powered lens shift and lens memory. So all this zoom and lens movement will have to be done manually which I see getting old very fast. The only projector with those 2 options I can afford is the Panasonic 7000 but other than those options I think the Epson 8700ub and 5010 are better overall.

I've read that having a Scope screen, a 16:9 image is smaller than what it would appear on a 16:9 screen because it has to be shortened and thus smaller width as well.

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post #10 of 38 Old 01-11-2013, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mijotter View Post


I've read that having a Scope screen, a 16:9 image is smaller than what it would appear on a 16:9 screen because it has to be shortened and thus smaller width as well.

You have read wrong information then or misunderstood some key factors.
CIH - Constant Image Height. The height remains the same no matter what ratio the film or source material is. Displaying a 16.9 image on a scope screen you will have black bars either side. The image is no smaller then if it was displayed on a 16.9 screen PROVIDED the HEIGHT remains CONSTANT. Example - if you were to buy a 16.9 screen and it was 40 inches tall, all your 16.9 shows would be 40 inches tall and would fill the entire width of the 16.9 screen. Now to keep your 16.9 shows at the same size of 40 inches tall on a scope screen, the scope screen would obviously have to be 40 inches tall also, so now your 16.9 image displays the EXACT same size as it would have on a 16.9 screen, but you have black bars either side of the image which is the extra width of the scope screen. I can't explain it any simpler, and Josh Z's article explains all this. I've no doubt you've read plenty on the subject but you seem to be struggling to actually understand what it is saying. Don't take this the wrong way, it's a complex subject and I can guarantee 99%+ of the general population would have no idea. Keep reading Josh's article, print it out and study it. Especially study the diagrams and explanations. Cheers.

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post #11 of 38 Old 01-11-2013, 11:33 PM - Thread Starter
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AHA! I get it now. So this is why some people get some sort of left and right masking like curtains. Holy crap that just made my life that much simpler. I wonder if they make AFFORDABLE remote curtains...Thanks man.

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post #12 of 38 Old 01-12-2013, 12:01 AM
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130" Scope Screen

Exactly! In my case I have two MDF panels with jet-black colored velvet fabric over them which I simply lift into place and hang on the scope frame via 2 small brackets. Although only a manual system, they cost less than 100 bucks and work a treat.

Panels in place, now approx.102" 16.9 screen

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post #13 of 38 Old 01-12-2013, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

He was talking about keeping the height of the screen the same but using curtains to mask the different widths of the 3 ratios. Right?

You don't have to include curtains. That's how I choose to do it. Some people just leave the screen exposed with pillarbox bars on the sides of narrower material.

Do you do anything to cover up the letterbox bars on your 16:9 TV now? You get used to seeing the black bars. Same thing can happen in scope. Or you can put some curtains up and cover the bars.
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So all this zoom and lens movement will have to be done manually which I see getting old very fast.

It's not like you have to get up and do it every five minutes. The average movie is 90 minutes to 2 hours long. How many movies do you watch in a night?
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I've read that having a Scope screen, a 16:9 image is smaller than what it would appear on a 16:9 screen because it has to be shortened and thus smaller width as well.

The idea is not to make 16:9 smaller. It's to make 2.35:1 bigger. So, you find a screen that's the same height as whatever 16:9 screen you would normally use, then you make it wider. 16:9 material is the same size as it would be otherwise, but scope is bigger.






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post #14 of 38 Old 01-12-2013, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot guys. Josh Z would've been funny if you found a way to crop Milla Jovovich in to that Casablanca still lol. I think I would get some kind of curtain setup provided they're not too expensive and heck it could give my wife a way to test out the new sewing machine I bought her for Christmas ;-p.

Yeah I thought about that as well and i'm on the fence as whether to go with a projector that has powered lens shift/lens memory or no. So currently it's either the Panasonic E7000 or the Epson 5010 as there are nights with the guys where we'll watch 3 movies.

I taped off the Scope screen and 16:9 screen last night(as i'm still in construction) and Scope = 112" and 16:9 = 88" diagonal with the same height of 43" My room is only 11'x16'9".

If I just watched a Scope screen movie and the next movie was a 16:9 would the lens shift and zoom be vertical and horizontal?

Oh and Crazy awesome looking theater man.

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post #15 of 38 Old 01-12-2013, 11:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Also even though the cinescpoe screen will not have the black letterbox lines on it, will they still be there just off screen?

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post #16 of 38 Old 01-13-2013, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

Also even though the cinescpoe screen will not have the black letterbox lines on it, will they still be there just off screen?

If all you do is zoom, yes. The letterbox bars will be projected off the top and bottom of the screen. Some black masking fabric around the screen will absorb it so you don't notice.

If you want to get rid of the bars altogether, you need an anamorphic lens, and your projector will need to be able to apply the appropriate vertical stretch.

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post #17 of 38 Old 01-13-2013, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok that's what I figured. Does the Epson 5010 or Panasonic AE7000 support such vertical stretch?

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post #18 of 38 Old 01-16-2013, 11:05 PM - Thread Starter
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So i've been seeing a lot of blurays with a 1.85:1 ratio. Is this somewhere between 16:9 and Scope as far as width is concerned since i'll be having a CIH screen.

Also what is the native format of the Panny AE8000 or the Epson 6020? Can they produce the normal amount of pixels for a 2.40 picture or is the 1920x1080p the 16:9 amount of pixels? If not are there any projectors out there that can?

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post #19 of 38 Old 01-17-2013, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

So i've been seeing a lot of blurays with a 1.85:1 ratio. Is this somewhere between 16:9 and Scope as far as width is concerned since i'll be having a CIH screen.

Also what is the native format of the Panny AE8000 or the Epson 6020? Can they produce the normal amount of pixels for a 2.40 picture or is the 1920x1080p the 16:9 amount of pixels? If not are there any projectors out there that can?

1.85:1 is basically 16.9, so no it's not in between 16.9 and scope. The difference between 1.85:1 and 1.78:1 is insignificant, so not worth worrying about.

All projectors are native 16.9. They produce the same amount of pixels for scope as a 16.9 does but an "X" amount of the pixels will make up the black bars top and bottom. So if zooming, your actual scope picture will have approx. a third of the pixels missing (the missing third are the black bars zoomed off the screen), to preserve all the pixels you would need to use an anamorphic lens. These are basic explanations, someone with more expertise may explain further with more detail.

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post #20 of 38 Old 01-17-2013, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh I see. Hopefully this doesn't affect the picture quality too much(1/3 of the pixels for the black bars) So do I need some permanat masking for the top and bottom as well other than the 2" black border around the screen. I was trying to look closely at your pics Crazy but it's too dark. How is yours set up.

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post #21 of 38 Old 01-19-2013, 08:27 PM
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I have an anamorphic lens so I have no overspill outside the onscreen image, however if I did zoom, the entire screen wall is painted black so the black bars would be absorbed. Up to you what you do to absorb the overspill, some people aren't bothered by it, others hate it. Black material is a popular choice to absorb the black bars.

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post #22 of 38 Old 01-21-2013, 05:34 AM
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Well I'm going to go on record as recommending a 2.40:1 screen compared to 2.35:1 or 2.33:1. Maybe there's something wrong with my setup, but with my screen (49.5" x 116", so about 2.34:1) I find that I pretty much always have at least a couple of inches of picture bleeding off to each side of my screen when watching a scope movie and zooming it so that the height fills the screen completely.

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post #23 of 38 Old 01-23-2013, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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That was actually going to be my next question. What is the difference between a 2.35:1 and 2.40:1 in relation to the screen. Will I see bars at all(horizontal or vertical?) if my lens memory is and screen is set to 2.40:1 and the disc is 2.35:1 format? Since I'm getting the Panny AE8000 with 6 lens memory settings it won't be an issue, just curious.

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post #24 of 38 Old 02-03-2013, 07:57 AM
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So, just by getting a projector which supports vertical stretch will solve this problem ?

So, which Epson model supports Vertical stretch ?

Just curious, what those anamorphic lenses normally cost and does it work with all types of projectors and convert to 2.35:1 ?
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post #25 of 38 Old 02-03-2013, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soamz View Post

So, just by getting a projector which supports vertical stretch will solve this problem ?

So, which Epson model supports Vertical stretch ?

Just curious, what those anamorphic lenses normally cost and does it work with all types of projectors and convert to 2.35:1 ?

No, vertical stretch by itself will not solve the issue. You will need to stretch the image, then use the Anamorphic lens to reshape the image to the correct [geometry] size. Doing scope on your first ever projector It is not an easy place to start. I have been doing home theater for 10 years and am just now going scope, and I find the learning curve to be steep, even knowing what all of the terms are.

The best place to start is on post #4 of this thread. Then go to the search function at the top of any thread and type in Anamorphic, or 2..35 and read, read some more, read some more, then ask to have the blanks filled in.

Everyone here wants to help, they really do, but the basics must be done first, which means study by searches first, reading a lot, then asking the questions.


Or we can just say buy an Epson 5010, 2.35 screen, and the cheapest lens out there a, Panamorph, Cinevista and your done. It will do what you want.

You'll still have to read though on how to make it work.smile.gif


Oh and AV Science has a store that sells everything you need and I mentioned too.
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post #26 of 38 Old 02-03-2013, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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"2.4x Cinemascope compatibility. The AE8000 has an anamorphic stretch mode for compatibility with anamorphic lenses. It also has automated Lens Memory, which can zoom the picture from 16:9 to 2.4 widescreen based on the aspect ratio of the content. This gives you the option of a constant image height (CIH) setup without using a costly anamorphic lens. The 5020UBe lacks both of these options. Anamorphic stretch mode is available on the Epson 6020UB and 6020UBe, but those models cost significantly more. "

Review from Projector Central. http://www.projectorcentral.com/epson_5020_vs_panasonic_ae8000.htm

Anamorphic lenses are very expensive(usually 3k) so this was not an option for me. I was torn between Epson and Panasonic but with the ability of Power lens and lens memory it was a no brainer as the picture quality will be so close between the two. This allows you to have lens setups for 2.35, 1.78, 1.33, etc by the push of a button after you save it initially to the projector.

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post #27 of 38 Old 04-12-2013, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quick question: How much space should there be between the screen and the masking whether it be curtains or panels?

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post #28 of 38 Old 04-13-2013, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

Quick question: How much space should there be between the screen and the masking whether it be curtains or panels?

The general rule is 'as close as possible without touching the screen surface."

That will minimize shadowing in the biggest variety of lighting/projector position situations.

Commercial masking systems vary: my Carada vertical masking system has the masks about 1/4" off the screen surface. Whereas I've seen some much more expensive Stewart masking systems in which the masking looked to be about 1 1/2" to 2" off the screen surface.

My Carada masks the top and bottom of images. I added an automated side masking panel system to my set up over top of my Carada so I have 4 way masking. I was concerned to get my side masking as close to the screen surface as possible. However, it had to clear the frame of my screen so it couldn't be as close as the Carada masking.
What I did to get the side mask edges closer to my screen surface is this: I went to Home Depot and bought a couple of long hinges - these were two metal strips about 2" wide each, 8 feet long, hinged together. I cut them to the height of the visible screen portion, so they would fit inside the area of my screen's frame. Then I had those sewn into the leading edges of my side masking. Since they were placed only within the screen area, they were not impeded by having to clear the screen frame. Then I simply pushed the angle of the leading edge piece in toward the screen surface, so now the leading edge was angled in toward the screen, making for a closer-to-screen-surface leading edge.

Ultimately I got my side masks about 2" from the screen surface (I actually would have got them a bit closer but my side masking system was installed a bit further out than I had designed).

I have no shadowing at all. It looks really clean and sharp when a movie is playing..

FWIW...
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post #29 of 38 Old 04-14-2013, 07:29 PM
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as an FYI - I have a scope screen, 99% of my watching is movies. When in 16:9 mode I still find the screen huge - the key to nirvana is to get the image height to match the 16x9 screen size you are happy with and then the scope screen will fill out the sides, meaning less compromise on both. I even watched Pinocchio last night in ol' 1.33 and found it a large and enjoyable image size (kids loved it - I find it a depressing movie).
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post #30 of 38 Old 04-14-2013, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks so much for the informative responses. Yeah Pinocchio gets rather creepy as well towards the end. On another note. I will be having a 112" diagonal scope screen with a CIH of 43". Would anyone know or have an educated guess as to the height of the letter box bars when playing a scope movie. I'll be getting a Panny AE8000 so I can zoom so the picture fills the screen but the black bars will still be there just off screen. By how much?

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