Which Anamorphic Lens? - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 22 Old 03-27-2014, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi everyone,

It's been a while since I've posted anything but I have enjoyed reading about everything HT. I'm about to pull the trigger on an anamorphic lens to use with my JVC X95. The dilemma is which one to choose; CAVX - Aussiemorphic lens MK 5 or the XEIT- Crystalmorphic CM-5E. (Because I live in Australia I figure these two brands will give better value for money.) I'll be projecting on a Seymour AV curved AT C130 XS screen in a completely light controlled room.
So which lens will give me the biggest bang for my buck. Your thoughts?
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post #2 of 22 Old 03-28-2014, 04:03 PM
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Have you compared the specs?
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post #3 of 22 Old 03-29-2014, 12:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Spec wise the main difference is that the CAVX is a 4 element design and the XEIT is a 5 element. Each with it's pros and cons. I guess what I'm after is real world experiences from owners before I commit to joining their ranks.
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post #4 of 22 Old 03-29-2014, 07:30 AM
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I have a little bias (not much really), and would recommend the XEIT. Curious, what do you see as the pro's for the CAVX? I see the XEIT better in every way. Particularly the new one.
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post #5 of 22 Old 03-29-2014, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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In principal a simpler design means less that can go wrong. ISCO for instance shares a similar design history however there is progress , refinement and execution of design. I agree the XEIT is a very good lens and so is the CAVX.
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post #6 of 22 Old 03-29-2014, 07:18 PM
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I'm not sure about the physical size difference between the two, but make sure that whichever you choose will work with your throw ratio, you don't want to end up with vignetting and a lens you can't use. However, being that you're in Australia, I assume both Mark and Aussie Bob would be more than willing to help you with any issues should they arise.

-Sean
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post #7 of 22 Old 04-04-2014, 05:20 PM
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I am sure there is a similar thread to this running on DTV and the purpose of this post is simply information. If this breeches the AVS rules, please remove it.


This image show the MK5 mounted on a revised version of the Projector Station with "special order" long telescopic legs which allow absolute precise leveling of the projector. I elected to 'invert" the projector for this installation
.
The MK5 is approx 225mm or 9" in diameter with the stand being just over 300mm or 12" wide. The height adjustment legs are 250mm or 10" long and the weight of the lens itself is 6.1KG! Yes this lens is BIG and heavy smile.gif

The optics were designed by an optical engineer that designs optics for Cannon Cameras. This is a 4 element / 2 lens design (fully CA corrected) with multi-asperic radii. This means that the correction for grid distortion is part of the precision optical design and does not require an additional lens.
These optics now feature "JVC safe" optics due to new optical coatings.
The case was designed my myself and the engineer that does the machine work for the lens.

The continuously adjustable astigmatism correction is made via the focal ring which moves the front lens in and out at a rate of 4mm per 360 degrees rotation.
The stand features height, tilt, rotation and yaw adjustments.



A quick screen cap. When set up correctly, these A-lens will deliver a sharp image with true corner to corner focus.
I am using a curved screen here.

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post #8 of 22 Old 04-09-2014, 09:18 PM
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How big is that screen?

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post #9 of 22 Old 04-11-2014, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK Doom View Post

How big is that screen?

My screen is small at just 8 feet wide. HD + these A-lenses really shine at 10+ feet. I wish I had taken up the offer to build a bigger HT and I would have gone with 12 feet wide.

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post #10 of 22 Old 04-11-2014, 08:40 PM
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Looks real nice, i was going to compare mine to that screenshot this weekend.

Is that low lamp mode?

I'm sure I'll need high to look like that.

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post #11 of 22 Old 04-17-2014, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by TK Doom View Post

Looks real nice, i was going to compare mine to that screenshot this weekend.

Is that low lamp mode?

I'm sure I'll need high to look like that.

Yeah it is on low lamp mode. I am using the BenQ W6000 at this time and out of the box, it was nasty bright at over 30FL! I calibrate every 100 hours (due now cool.gif ) and set the brightness of a full white field to be 16FL.

later this year I hope to upgrade to the Optoma HD91 which was also very bright at about 24FL out of the box when I tested it. Not only does this projector do 3D (fully scales for CIH as well) at 144Hz, it is LED and after calibration gave one of the most accurate colour gamuts I've measured. Being single chip DLP and with exceptional optics, a very sharp image and no RBE!

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post #12 of 22 Old 04-17-2014, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

later this year I hope to upgrade to the Optoma HD91 which was also very bright at about 24FL out of the box when I tested it. Not only does this projector do 3D (fully scales for CIH as well) at 144Hz, it is LED and after calibration gave one of the most accurate colour gamuts I've measured. Being single chip DLP and with exceptional optics, a very sharp image and no RBE!

Don't think the blacks are so good from everything I have read though are they?
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post #13 of 22 Old 04-23-2014, 02:41 AM
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Don't think the blacks are so good from everything I have read though are they?

Depends on what you are projecting. The LEDs can and do dim out for low light scenes. Compared to my current DLP, it is very black but the point for me was the most excellent colour fidelity and 144Hz 3D. Whilst deep blacks are important, I don't watch full black fields.

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post #14 of 22 Old 04-23-2014, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

Yeah it is on low lamp mode. I am using the BenQ W6000 at this time and out of the box, it was nasty bright at over 30FL! I calibrate every 100 hours (due now cool.gif ) and set the brightness of a full white field to be 16FL.

later this year I hope to upgrade to the Optoma HD91 which was also very bright at about 24FL out of the box when I tested it. Not only does this projector do 3D (fully scales for CIH as well) at 144Hz, it is LED and after calibration gave one of the most accurate colour gamuts I've measured. Being single chip DLP and with exceptional optics, a very sharp image and no RBE!

Im going to derail for a moment, what do you mean no RBE ? No color wheel ?
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post #15 of 22 Old 04-23-2014, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Im going to derail for a moment, what do you mean no RBE ? No color wheel ?

No colour wheel. They pulse (and can dim) faster than any mechanical wheel or dynamic iris.

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post #16 of 22 Old 04-28-2014, 05:13 PM
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Interesting to read your comments on this projector, as I have been interested in it myself. I caught your comment about "I don't watch black fields," but as someone who loves the black levels of my JVC, can you comment at all on how it might compare? Other than black levels, I tend to prefer DLP.

Also very encouraged to hear your comments on color gamut. When I discussed this with Joe Kane a few years back, he was lamenting that LEDs are too narrow in their color spectrum to mix intermediate colors accurately. Any thoughts on this?

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post #17 of 22 Old 05-06-2014, 12:10 PM
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You are using a BenQ W6000 + A-lens to achieve the great picture shot of Star Wars. How would you compared to BenQ W7000 having 3d capability which I would like + A-lens? The Optoma HD91 has lots of features but costly. If not BenQ7000 what would you recommend? I watch alot of 2:35 material. My preferred 2:35 screen size is 54" X 130 with A-lens. Your MK5, 225mm/9"dia lens setup is impressive. Can a Panamorph lens do the same?
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post #18 of 22 Old 05-12-2014, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

Interesting to read your comments on this projector, as I have been interested in it myself. I caught your comment about "I don't watch black fields," but as someone who loves the black levels of my JVC, can you comment at all on how it might compare? Other than black levels, I tend to prefer DLP.

Also very encouraged to hear your comments on color gamut. When I discussed this with Joe Kane a few years back, he was lamenting that LEDs are too narrow in their color spectrum to mix intermediate colors accurately. Any thoughts on this?

Hi John, if black is defined as the absense of visible light, then how much blacker can no light be? The test I did seemed to suggest that a full black field (on test pattern) produced no light out the lens. Interestingly enough, this black floor raises if even 1 pixel is required to be on. Still, the blacks from the HD90 I tested killed those on my BenQ W6000.

I think the issue with traditional DLP was that when TI designed it back in the 1990s(?), it seems it was build around (including the filters of the colour wheel) SMPTE C colours (I am sure at the time EBU and HD colour spaces was already designed) and the limiting factor from all the DLPs I have tested seems worse in the green channel. Because the colour of this projector is now produced from pure light, the colour of green can be true to REC709. The DMD simply reflects these true "pure" colours out the lens.

Don't get me wrong, out of the box this projector was nothing great. I have my own colorimeter, so decided to have a play and after just 2 hours, I was seeing amazing results starting with a super flat grey scale, so decided to move onto the colour management. This projector offers the best CM. You start with setting colour brightness then it is X,Y co-ordinates on the CIE diagram and the results are pretty impressive. Watching video is even more so smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFree View Post

You are using a BenQ W6000 + A-lens to achieve the great picture shot of Star Wars. How would you compared to BenQ W7000 having 3d capability which I would like + A-lens? The Optoma HD91 has lots of features but costly. If not BenQ7000 what would you recommend? I watch alot of 2:35 material. My preferred 2:35 screen size is 54" X 130 with A-lens. Your MK5, 225mm/9"dia lens setup is impressive. Can a Panamorph lens do the same?

I looked into the W7000 as well. The issues with this projector and 3D is that you will need a scaler for CIH 3D and it does 3D at 120Hz not 144hz like the Optoma and you are still limited by UHP lamps. So add the cost of the MINI3D to the W7000 and you are close to the Optoma anyway. It is the colours that have drawn me to want this projector.

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post #19 of 22 Old 05-14-2014, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

Hi John, if black is defined as the absense of visible light, then how much blacker can no light be? The test I did seemed to suggest that a full black field (on test pattern) produced no light out the lens. Interestingly enough, this black floor raises if even 1 pixel is required to be on. Still, the blacks from the HD90 I tested killed those on my BenQ W6000.

Is that on a black frame (where it turns off the LEDs), or on something with some non-black, like a star field?

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #20 of 22 Old 05-14-2014, 05:45 PM
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Thanks Mark. Interested in getting my hands on one.

When I was at the Hollywood Post Alliance retreat in Palm Springs back in February, they had a fascinating presentation (with elaborate demos) about lighting for film / HD / UHD using LED lights. They were talking about how the color spectrum of LED lights as very narrow individually for red, green, blue, etc, and that it had real consequences for set lighting. This seemed to reflect what Joe Kane was telling me. Happy you are getting such good results!

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post #21 of 22 Old 05-14-2014, 06:49 PM
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The optics were designed by an optical engineer that designs optics for Cannon Cameras. This is a 4 element / 2 lens design (fully CA corrected) with multi-asperic radii. This means that the correction for grid distortion is part of the precision optical design and does not require an additional lens.

"Multi aspheric radii" is just another way of asserting that cylindrical lenses are "aspheric". While their profile is indeed not spherical, but only circular in one direction, cylindrical lenses are not usually included in the "aspheric" class. If they were,, then simple prisms would be "aspheric" as well, as they are non-circular too (i.e. flat). Cylindrical lenses are only "aspheric" in an unrealistically pedantic sense of the word, and are not classed as such in mainstream optics.

True aspheric lenses conform to non-circular profiles: cubic, polynomial and parabolic forms being examples of these. A simple cylindrical lens is not aspheric within the meaning of the term as it is used in optical design.

Aspherics are typically diamond-point polished right down to the final finished stage on machines costing millions. For this reason, they are usually quite small, due to the cost of producing them. Accordingly, when used in cameras and the like they are usually one of the smallest elements, close to minimum aperture size.

A true aspheric lens of the size indicated in the photograph would cost a small fortune to manufacture. This would render the sale price of any large projection lens, in whose design they were included, absolutely prohibitive. Employing multiple aspheric lenses of the size indicated would be complete overkill to the nth degree.

As to grid distortion, no simple 4-element anamorphic lens can correct for BOTH grid distortion AND retain focus to High Definition standards. This also applies to prism-based lenses. There are simply not enough degrees of design freedom in 4 elements to correct for color aberration, eliminate distortion, and keep the image sharp across the screen.

4 elements - in two groups of two elements - are the absolute minimum required for anamorphic projection. You can't do it with one lens, but you can with two. Adding more lens groups may provide extra degrees of freedom by which the designer can reduce other aberrations besides astigmatism and color aberration, namely grid distortion.

Adding extra lens groups is a common (indeed sometimes the only) way of enhancing the performance of an optical instrument. Extra glass is not usually added for fun, as doing so will inevitably increase the cost and complexity of manufacture, assembly and calibration. There are very few "miracle" short cuts in optical design, no matter how clever the designer.
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post #22 of 22 Old 05-20-2014, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Is that on a black frame (where it turns off the LEDs), or on something with some non-black, like a star field?

A full black field, but still pretty decent for a star field. As I said, blacker than my current DLP, but probably not DiLA blacks. I guess at some point, we all have to compromise on something.
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Thanks Mark. Interested in getting my hands on one.

When I was at the Hollywood Post Alliance retreat in Palm Springs back in February, they had a fascinating presentation (with elaborate demos) about lighting for film / HD / UHD using LED lights. They were talking about how the color spectrum of LED lights as very narrow individually for red, green, blue, etc, and that it had real consequences for set lighting. This seemed to reflect what Joe Kane was telling me. Happy you are getting such good results!

I still yet to purchase this projector. I did enjoy the unit when it I had it at my home, but due to some very unexpected bills, was put on the back burner. I should have one later this year.

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