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post #121 of 153 Old 08-14-2014, 07:40 PM
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I would also like CinemaAndy to tell us, without lying (and that's kind of key), when was the last time he actually went to a movie theater and saw the projected black level.

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post #122 of 153 Old 08-14-2014, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
CinemaAndy,

I will re-state the question I've asked of you more than once already:

Do you know how projector contrast works, in terms of it's relationship to black levels? If so, the following question should be easy.
In a test in which competent set up conditions are assumed in each....

Take two projectors:

Projector A
Projector B

Projector A is capable of producing 2,100:1 native on/off contrast

Projector B is capable of producing 60,000:1 native on/off contrast

Project both projectors on to the screen sizes for which each was designed, such that both are producing industry-standard brightness of 14 fL +/-3

Compare/observe and measure the black levels. Under such conditions:

Which one of the two projectors will produce the LOWER (darker) black levels? Projector A or B?

If you work in the professional projection industry as you claim, then you should have the basic understanding of contrast allowing you to easily answer this question.

Can you answer the question, directly, please?
I don't deal with, snake oils, myths, or compounded formulas to make something work. It does or it does not. There is no 60,000:1 native on/off projector in any field. If you want such contrast, as to why is beyond me as you can't see the difference over 3,000:1, you should look to CRT based devices.

Projector A will produce the lowest darks, as projector B is a myth.

This thread is discussion on black bars on television's, not projected material.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #123 of 153 Old 08-14-2014, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
I would also like CinemaAndy to tell us, without lying (and that's kind of key), when was the last time he actually went to a movie theater and saw the projected black level.
I tried today, but, the projector kept showing reds, blues, greens, oranges, browns, blacks, pinks, whites. Like a damn rainbow in there. I'll try next week.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #124 of 153 Old 08-14-2014, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
I don't deal with, snake oils, myths, or compounded formulas to make something work. It does or it does not. There is no 60,000:1 native on/off projector in any field. If you want such contrast, as to why is beyond me as you can't see the difference over 3,000:1, you should look to CRT based devices.

Projector A will produce the lowest darks, as projector B is a myth.

This thread is discussion on black bars on television's, not projected material.
Outed.

Back to rational discussion elsewhere.
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post #125 of 153 Old 08-14-2014, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
I tried today, but, the projector kept showing reds, blues, greens, oranges, browns, blacks, pinks, whites. Like a damn rainbow in there. I'll try next week.
I think this explains it. Andy is dropping LSD while looking at projectors. It's the only feasible explanation for the nonsense he's babbling.

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post #126 of 153 Old 08-14-2014, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Outed.

Back to rational discussion elsewhere.
Where is your proof of anything you have been saying? Oh that's right, you actually believe the marketing sales gimmicks don't you? Well then, i have a bridge in Brooklyn that i want to sell you, and on a sunny day, the contrast is very high, around 3,000:1.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #127 of 153 Old 08-14-2014, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
I think this explains it. Andy is dropping LSD while looking at projectors.....
Yes i am.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #128 of 153 Old 08-14-2014, 11:22 PM
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For the sport of it....

Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
Where is your proof of anything you have been saying? Oh that's right, you actually believe the marketing sales gimmicks don't you? Well then, i have a bridge in Brooklyn that i want to sell you, and on a sunny day, the contrast is very high, around 3,000:1.
Have you already forgotten the posts to which you were supposed to respond? Too much LSD?

Remember this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness
The most technically thorough consumer projector reviewers, Cine4Home, provided the actual MEASURED (not just manufacturer's claimed specs) contrast of various JVC projectors:

https://translate.google.com/transla...htm&edit-text=

https://translate.google.com/transla...htm&edit-text=

There you can see a "low" of 26,000:1 all the way up to 130,000:1 measured on/off contrast!
I have specifically emphasized that the contrast numbers were CONFIRMED BY MEASUREMENTS by technically competent reviewers. I did that so you wouldn't squirm to the "who believes manufacturer's specs?" excuse...which of course you did anyway.

Sound And Vision magazine recently reviewed another JVC projector on a 120" 1.3 gain screen. They measured ....M-E-A-S-U-R-E-D...on off contrast ratio up to 33,000:1 at 20 ft-L (note: higher brightness than you'll ever actually see in a Cinema, and STILL a lower black floor) and he measured...M-E-A-S-U-R-E-D.... up to 420,000:1 on/off with the Dynamic Iris employed (which is how I used my projector).

Whereas you'd claimed at one point D-Cinema projectors using TI chips can do perfect no-light black levels...and then later claimed:

"Black out of a DCI projector is a close to black as a light based source can get."


(And the professional calibrator who did my projector measured black levels as low or lower than the Pioneer Kuro plasmas he had worked on, which if you knew anything about contrast you'd know would be impossible with the contrast numbers of your beloved D-Cinema projectors).

The best you have so far for your D-Cinema projectors aren't even independently taken measurements - YOU are relying on manufacturer specs. If you have independent sources of measurement (i.e. not from the manufacturer) time to produce them. More important, point to independently taken contrast measurements showing D-Cinema projectors using TI chips measuring higher measured on/off contrast than the JVC projectors.

Now, at least one of us in this conversation knows you can't do that. (In fact everyone else here knows it too).

Your move.

(Wait...can I guess? Charges of incompetence or conspiracy in the reviewers. Or evasions like.."it doesn't matter anyway you can't see that contrast" - with no admission your technical claims have been shown false...or...just flat out ignoring the relevant facts again...or why not surprise us!?)

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post #129 of 153 Old 08-15-2014, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
For the sport of it....



Have you already forgotten the posts to which you were supposed to respond? Too much LSD?

Remember this?



I have specifically emphasized that the contrast numbers were CONFIRMED BY MEASUREMENTS by technically competent reviewers. I did that so you wouldn't squirm to the "who believes manufacturer's specs?" excuse...which of course you did anyway.

Sound And Vision magazine recently reviewed another JVC projector on a 120" 1.3 gain screen. They measured ....M-E-A-S-U-R-E-D...on off contrast ratio up to 33,000:1 at 20 ft-L (note: higher brightness than you'll ever actually see in a Cinema, and STILL a lower black floor) and he measured...M-E-A-S-U-R-E-D.... up to 420,000:1 on/off with the Dynamic Iris employed (which is how I used my projector).

Whereas you'd claimed at one point D-Cinema projectors using TI chips can do perfect no-light black levels...and then later claimed:

"Black out of a DCI projector is a close to black as a light based source can get."


(And the professional calibrator who did my projector measured black levels as low or lower than the Pioneer Kuro plasmas he had worked on, which if you knew anything about contrast you'd know would be impossible with the contrast numbers of your beloved D-Cinema projectors).

The best you have so far for your D-Cinema projectors aren't even independently taken measurements - YOU are relying on manufacturer specs. If you have independent sources of measurement (i.e. not from the manufacturer) time to produce them. More important, point to independently taken contrast measurements showing D-Cinema projectors using TI chips measuring higher measured on/off contrast than the JVC projectors.

Now, at least one of us in this conversation knows you can't do that. (In fact everyone else here knows it too).

Your move.

(Wait...can I guess? Charges of incompetence or conspiracy in the reviewers. Or evasions like.."it doesn't matter anyway you can't see that contrast" - with no admission your technical claims have been shown false...or...just flat out ignoring the relevant facts again...or why not surprise us!?)
I don't have to do anything. Who is asking who, for information here? I already know.

http://www.edcf.net/edcf_docs/DCI%20...cs%20final.pdf


Watch this video in full. Or jump to 48:00 for your contrast concerns and myths.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Last edited by CinemaAndy; 08-15-2014 at 12:04 AM.
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post #130 of 153 Old 08-15-2014, 02:49 AM
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I don't see the point of masking black bars when they're too bright, since the same level of black we'll be displayed on the movie content. I mean that if the black is too bright, masking the bars won't suddenly make the black level of the movie better.
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post #131 of 153 Old 08-15-2014, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by luca_frontino View Post
I don't see the point of masking black bars when they're too bright, since the same level of black we'll be displayed on the movie content. I mean that if the black is too bright, masking the bars won't suddenly make the black level of the movie better.
Masking improves perceived contrast.
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post #132 of 153 Old 08-15-2014, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by GreySkies View Post
Masking improves perceived contrast.
I perceive the black of the movie the same way, no matter if there are black bars or not. In bright scenes, perceived black improves either with full screen content or letterboxed.
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post #133 of 153 Old 08-15-2014, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by luca_frontino View Post
I perceive the black of the movie the same way, no matter if there are black bars or not. In bright scenes, perceived black improves either with full screen content or letterboxed.
That's because you're not using a projector.
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post #134 of 153 Old 08-15-2014, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
I don't have to do anything. Who is asking who, for information here? I already know.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DSiAlzJ_rg

Watch this video in full. Or jump to 48:00 for your contrast concerns and myths.
LOL...apparently you didn't watch the video yourself.

Remember, you claimed D-Cinema projectors can currently do perfect "off" black levels, that - with their 2,100:1 contrast, they nonetheless magically produce deeper/better blacks and contrast than JVC projectors.

If you listen from 48:00 from your video, you will hear the Christie representative say:

There are diminishing returns in contrast in commercial cinema because of other sources of light in the cinema (track lighting on iles, exit signs)....

That's why I don't place track lighting and exit signs in my home theater Which is another reason why commercial theater presentation is compromised in terms of achieving higher contrast, whereas home theater is well placed to achieve contrast and black levels higher than commercial cinemas!

The Christie rep also says there is room for improvement in contrast (in D-cinema projectors) - that audiences "will notice and enjoy more contrast" "haven't established that upper limit yet"…

Finally, the Christie rep says: "certainly I think we can tell the difference between 2,000:1 and 10,000:1" (host Scott Wilkinson agrees) "we are striving to design projectors that are MUCH HIGHER in contrast…"

So there you have it: your own video link is more evidence that your claims have been bogus - and that current D-Cinema contrast capabilities are not perfect, not all you need, that more contrast will be beneficial and is being sought by the designers, and that higher contrast will make for a visible improvement.

And JVC projectors already offer much higher contrast, and most owners like myself view them in environments which are not compromised by additional lights in the room, as you get in commercial cinemas.

But, again, none of this assumes for a moment you will relent; you don't come across as serious as you have made every troll move in the book. However, for others watching getting some real information can be helpful.

I think that's all that can be squeezed out of this interaction.

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post #135 of 153 Old 08-15-2014, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luca_frontino View Post
I don't see the point of masking black bars when they're too bright, since the same level of black we'll be displayed on the movie content. I mean that if the black is too bright, masking the bars won't suddenly make the black level of the movie better.
Two things:

1. The black bars (when too light, actually "gray bars") act as unnecessary, extraneous information around the image. In projection you normally have a pitch black velvet screen border that should form the screen edges. However in a letter-boxed image on a 16:9 screen, the "gray bars" are like adding another frame to the image. It's like taking a picture and putting a second frame on it - it's distracting and unnecessary visual information. The gray bars are constant reminders that the image doesn't actually properly fit the shape of your screen and does not fill it. An image bordered only by pitch black masking looks much neater, more "professional" and more aesthetically satisfying.


2. Improved perception of contrast.
Remember how contrast guides your eye's perception of black levels. Place a bright image right next to a gray patch, and the gray patch will look darker. Imagine a screen image - a full shot of a man in a white room, in a white suite, wearing a black tie. Because that black tie is so small in the image, surrounded by so much brightness, your eye will perceive it as very dark black. Even projectors with very low contrast will produce this effect, do to the contrast effect. Now imagine the camera begins zooming in on the black tie. As the black tie begins to fill the screen, the ratio of dark to light on the image changes, and your perception of contrast and the "blackness" of the tie will change. Once you have the tie filling the majority of the image, then there will be much less ratio of bright area to bias your eye to see the tie as black, and you will perceive the projected light in that dark area, and will perceive it as now more gray.

In other words: the more "projected gray" you add to the image, the more you change the ratio of bright and dark in the image, and the less "black" that projected gray will look.

The projected "black bars" amount to a constant, additional amount of gray surrounding the image. Making it easier to perceive the "not black" character of your projector's black levels. Especially in scenes that are not really bright. This addition of a larger area of gray makes black levels in many scenes perceived as lighter than they otherwise would be. Maksing the gray bars away, reduces the amount of gray area in your view, and thus can give the perception of higher contrast (or at least reduce the perception of poor black levels). You increase your ratio of "bright to dark" in the image, increasing it's perceived contrast.

Further, this also benefits most bright scenes and "mixed brightness" scenes, again due to how we perceive contrast differences. If you place a gray square in a white border, it will appear dimmer. If you place it in a pitch black border, it will appear brighter. Masking away gray bars places a pitch black border around your image, making it perceived as brighter, and "punchier" in contrast. I'm always amazed that when, just for the heck of it, I raise my masking to see the projected "black bar" area, how the contrast of many images immediately seems to go lower.
With some images, activating the masking makes it feel like I'm going from an old lower contrast projector to a new higher contrast projector. Most people using masking experience this.

All this is pretty well known in projection, but I take it from your posts here that you are not very experienced in home theater projection, correct? (For instance, your protests against re-scaling Blu-Rays for CIH projection show quite a gap between theory and actual experience).
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post #136 of 153 Old 08-15-2014, 08:16 PM
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LOL...apparently you didn't watch the video yourself.
Yes i did watch it. I see you just skipped right over where they both laughed at the contrast "CLAIMS" made by ce companies. Yet, you still believe you're getting 60,000:1 contrast ratio. OK. Whatever. Cuckoo Cuckoo.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #137 of 153 Old 08-15-2014, 10:23 PM
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Why are you still posting in this thread, Andy? We've already called you out on your lies and BS.

This is not the right forum to argue about contrast ratio. Go to one of the projector forums and let them laugh at your hilariously stupid claims there.
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post #138 of 153 Old 08-16-2014, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
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Why are you still posting in this thread, Andy? We've already called you out on your lies and BS.

This is not the right forum to argue about contrast ratio. Go to one of the projector forums and let them laugh at your hilariously stupid claims there.
I was talking about contrast and black bars on Televisions, as well as projectors. As both are the same as they reproduce a image, using a light source. you guys pulled this into a projector debate. I guess i will also have to post the scientific fact for that as well. I know the clinical study of perception of contrast by the human eye is rather long and uses some big words. Here it is for you to read again. Enjoy.

http://web.stanford.edu/class/ee368b...Perception.pdf

http://www.ics.uci.edu/~irani/pubs/apgv06.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrast_ratio

from the above link,

In marketing literature, contrast ratios for emissive (as opposed to reflective) displays are always measured under the optimum condition of a room in total darkness. In typical viewing situations, the contrast ratio is significantly lower due to the reflection of light from the surface of the display, making it harder to distinguish between different devices with very high contrast ratios.[4] How much the room light reduces the contrast ratio depends on the luminance of the display, as well as the amount of light reflecting off the display.[5]

A clean print at a typical movie theater may have a contrast ratio of 500:1.[6] Dynamic contrast ratio is usually measured at factory with two panels (one versus another) of the same model as each panel will have an inherent dark and light (hot) spot. Static is usually measured with the same screen showing half screen full bright vs half screen full dark. This usually results in a lower ratio as brightness will creep into the dark area of the screen thus giving a higher luminance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_eye,

Read this sentence very carefully,

The retina has a static contrast ratio of around 100:1 (about 6.5 f-stops). As soon as the eye moves (saccades) it re-adjusts its exposure both chemically and geometrically by adjusting the iris which regulates the size of the pupil. Initial dark adaptation takes place in approximately four seconds of profound, uninterrupted darkness; full adaptation through adjustments in retinal chemistry (the Purkinje effect) is mostly complete in thirty minutes. Hence, a dynamic contrast ratio of about 1,000,000:1 (about 20 f-stops) is possible.[5][6] The process is nonlinear and multifaceted, so an interruption by light merely starts the adaptation process over again. Full adaptation is dependent on good blood flow; thus dark adaptation may be hampered by poor circulation, and vasoconstrictors like tobacco.[citation needed]

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/l...sionintro.html

From the above article,

The human visual system must not only detect light and color, but as an optical system, must be able to discern differences among objects, or an object and its background. Known as physiological contrast or contrast discrimination, the relationship between the apparent brightness of two objects that are seen either at the same time (simultaneous contrast) or sequentially (successive contrast) against a background, may or may not be the same. In the human visual system, contrast is reduced in environmental darkness and with individuals suffering from color visual deficiencies such as red-green color blindness. Contrast is dependent on binocular vision, visual acuity, and image processing by the visual cortex of the brain. An object with low contrast, which cannot be distinguished from the background unless it is moving, is considered camouflaged. However, colorblind individuals are often able to detect camouflaged objects because of increased rod vision and loss of misleading color cues. Increasing contrast translates into increased visibility, and a quantitative numerical value for contrast is usually expressed as a percentage or ratio. Under optimal conditions, the human eye can barely detect the presence of two percent contrast.

So despite all the medical research you, as superman, claim to see 1,000,000:1 contrast while watching a moving image with ever changing picture brightest? i guess you, as superman, can also see the 1,000,000,000 colors that manufacturers claim their product makes, when the human eye can only see 10,000,000 million colors for 56% of the population between 14 and 45 years of age. The other's, i'm in that bracket, only sees 6,500,000 colors.

It must be nice being superman.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #139 of 153 Old 08-16-2014, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

The Christie rep also says there is room for improvement in contrast (in D-cinema projectors) - that audiences "will notice and enjoy more contrast" "haven't established that upper limit yet"…

Finally, the Christie rep says: [U][B]"certainly I think we can tell the difference between 2,000:1 and 10,000:1" .
Again you scanned and found 10,000:1 and your brain stuck to it while erupting in laughter completely missing the POINT that those levels of contrast perception last only a few mere seconds. You want the sad news, well for you, during watching ANY FORM of moving imagery, your eye's adjust to light level changes, contrast changes, ambient light changes all the while focusing on the image keeps your eyes at a 500:1 contrast ratio. The contrast you like to quote and spill out by the CE's is measured in a pitch black room with one color, RED. And is measured for 30 minutes, THE TIME IT TAKES YOUR EYES TO FULLY ADJUST AND PERCEIVE MAXIMUM CONTRAST. What happens when the image moves or the color changes? YOU ARE BACK TO 500:1 and will take a still image or solid color to get back to maximum, 30 minutes later. You must watch some strange movies in your laboratory.

But since you, are Superman, you can see 1,00,000,000,000,000:1 contrast.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #140 of 153 Old 08-16-2014, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
All this is pretty well known in projection, but I take it from your posts here that you are not very experienced in home theater projection, correct? (For instance, your protests against re-scaling Blu-Rays for CIH projection show quite a gap between theory and actual experience).
Your explanation seem to backup a technical solution relying on vaporware and that wouldn't work with me at all. Masking doesn't change a projector's black level. The deepest black in movie content is not improved by the masking system. The black of the bars will be equal to the black of the movie: if the bars are visible, the movie's black will also be visible and will reduce the depth of the image.
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post #141 of 153 Old 08-16-2014, 10:40 AM
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Just from personal experience from owning 3 different projectors and watching quite a few others, contrast is definitely being manipulated by manufacturers. My old Infocus was just 2000:1 and my new HD131xe is 18,000:1, I certainly don't see 9X better contrast on the HD131xe. It is definitely a better picture. I've watched tv's that are supposedly rated over 1,000,000:1 and I've never seen them have any better contrast than my HD131xe. And these are in darkened home theater rooms.
Its just manufacturers playing fast and lose with statistics. A lot of industries are government regulated to supply standardized specifications but the home entertainment companies are not. Would be nice to see them all just decide to quite lieing but thats not how capitalism works.
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post #142 of 153 Old 08-16-2014, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by luca_frontino View Post
Your explanation seem to backup a technical solution relying on vaporware and that wouldn't work with me at all. Masking doesn't change a projector's black level.
Correct, it doesn't change anything the projector is doing. But it DOES improve our perception of contrast.

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The deepest black in movie content is not improved by the masking system. The black of the bars will be equal to the black of the movie: if the bars are visible, the movie's black will also be visible and will reduce the depth of the image.
If the deepest blacks are all around the edges of the image, that would be the case. But they're not (and certainly not 100% of the time). Even the best projector setups can benefit from masking - the same way that any screen can be improved by a black, light-absorbing frame.


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Just from personal experience from owning 3 different projectors and watching quite a few others, contrast is definitely being manipulated by manufacturers.
Which is why R Harkness and others in this thread have been talking about MEASURED results from independent testing - not the claims made by manufacturers using unregulated numbers... No one disagrees that the contrast ratio "specs" are suspect at best. I tell folks looking at TV's that those numbers should only be used to compare models within each manufacturer's product line - but comparisons between brands should be done by eye (or independent test results).


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post #143 of 153 Old 08-16-2014, 06:17 PM
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... that wouldn't work with me at all.
Out of all of the incorrect things you've written, this is the wrongest.

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Masking doesn't change a projector's black level.
Please look up the definition of the word perceived.
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post #144 of 153 Old 08-16-2014, 07:45 PM
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Masking with projection, makes all the difference in the world for perceived contrast and overall viewing experience. It frames the image and takes away the distraction of the black bars, makes for a more immersive cinematic experience. This is really a no brainer, as soon as you see it you get it.

James Reid:D
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post #145 of 153 Old 08-16-2014, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by luca_frontino View Post
Your explanation seem to backup a technical solution relying on vaporware and that wouldn't work with me at all.
What are you saying? First, are you calling masking systems "vaporware?"

What's that word in there for?

Second, do you think your visual system is somehow exempt from the well-known contrast bias effects of the human visual system?

When you alter the contrast of the border around an image, it changes the perception of the image. This will occur whether you want it to or not.

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Masking doesn't change a projector's black level.
Please re-read what I wrote. I didn't say it would change the projector's black level I'm talking about our perception of the black levels (not just black levels, images at all brightness levels will interact via the contrast effect when you alter the darkness of the surrounding border - in the ways I described).

Further, as I pointed out, the projected gray bars are not part of the movie content, they are extraneous visual information, not intended to be part of the image when the movie is being made - the image is normally, and ideally, fitted to it's frame. Imagine replacing all the frames in an art gallery so that they are slightly too tall for the painting, showing additional area as part of the image, never intended by the painter. It would look like crap and no one would choose it over properly fitting frames. The only reason anyone has had to put up with the additional "black bar" frame information is due to the compromises of having to fit more than one AR into a single frame size.

But in front projection, this can be remedied: you can alter the frame size to perfectly fit the picture (masking) or alter the image size to perfectly fit the frame (CIH system). It looks far better, and it removes the additional frame information that was never part of the artistic intention.

Best to get out of your armchair, stop guessing, and get some actual hands on experience with projection and masking before trying to educate people who already own such systems and see the effects every day.

(And, btw, the interaction of a pure black background around movie images is dyanamic and complicated, because movie images are always changing the ratios of bright to dark in the image. For instance, in the very darkest, low APL images, a pure black surrounding the image can make the projected black level look a bit higher, due to it's being contrasted against pitch black. So sometimes it can sort of work against trying to perceive darker black levels. BUT....the reason people with masking nonetheless love it is because taken over-all, the majority of images benefit from the contrast effect of masking...and of course it is always eliminating those black bars! When we live in the currently imaginary world that CinemaAndy lives in, where projected black levels are perfect, then we won't need masking. But so long as projected black is lighter than pitch black, e.g. of the typical screen frame, masking will provide the benefits described)

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post #146 of 153 Old 08-16-2014, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Blindman0v0 View Post
Just from personal experience from owning 3 different projectors and watching quite a few others, contrast is definitely being manipulated by manufacturers. My old Infocus was just 2000:1 and my new HD131xe is 18,000:1, I certainly don't see 9X better contrast on the HD131xe. It is definitely a better picture. I've watched tv's that are supposedly rated over 1,000,000:1 and I've never seen them have any better contrast than my HD131xe. And these are in darkened home theater rooms.
Its just manufacturers playing fast and lose with statistics. A lot of industries are government regulated to supply standardized specifications but the home entertainment companies are not. Would be nice to see them all just decide to quite lieing but thats not how capitalism works.
Jeff already responded, but I'll just repeat: that is why I refer to measured contrast levels. Lots of projectors, for instance, will have fairy high-looking contrast specs that either: 1. they don't meet in the real world or 2. the used a dynamic iris to achieve - the actual native contrast of the projector will measure far, far lower. Manufacturer specs have never been reliable. (With few exceptions: JVC projectors have typically been measured to meet the actual manufacturer specs, though typically need a screen with gain to do so with a bright enough image to meet the highest manufacturer specs. Still, even when your set up meets 2/3 or 1/2 the manufacturer specs with a JVC, that's still an amazing real world contrast advantage over most other projectors).

Another thing is that contrast perception isn't as linear in the way you seem to assume. You need larger and larger steps in contrast to perceive differences. 18,000:1 contrast would never look 9X better than 2,000 contrast, even if both those projectors met those specs. But there would likely be a perceptible difference if both met such specs.

I have an original gen 4 Panasonic plasma which was rated (and measured) at around 3,000:1 on/off contrast. That was a really big deal at the time because until then plasma had struggled with lower contrast, grayish blacks etc.
The Panasonic 3rd gen were the first plasma with "good" contrast and decent black levels. But that was then.

Since then contrast truly improved - previous Pioneer Kuro, or especially the new OLED displays, measure from 30,000:1 (plasmas) up to 457,000:1 (OLED).

Visually, the contrast differences and black level difference vs my 3,000:1 Panny makes my Panny look like a joke.
Even going from my JVC projector to watching the same materials on my Panny plasma makes the plasma look washed out with grayish blacks in comparison. We certainly have made much needed advances in contrast. But projection still has a way to go before it gets pure-black/infinite contrast, like OLED.

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post #147 of 153 Old 08-17-2014, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Blindman0v0 View Post
Just from personal experience from owning 3 different projectors and watching quite a few others, contrast is definitely being manipulated by manufacturers. My old Infocus was just 2000:1 and my new HD131xe is 18,000:1, I certainly don't see 9X better contrast on the HD131xe. It is definitely a better picture. I've watched tv's that are supposedly rated over 1,000,000:1 and I've never seen them have any better contrast than my HD131xe. And these are in darkened home theater rooms.
Its just manufacturers playing fast and lose with statistics. A lot of industries are government regulated to supply standardized specifications but the home entertainment companies are not. Would be nice to see them all just decide to quite lying but thats not how capitalism works.
A lot of what is being done, that is not talked about, and needs to be talked about is screen(TV) and lens(projectors) material. Yes i welcome government intervention in the consumer electronics world, as it's the wild west. There is so many, for lack of a better term, flat lies about what their products can do and how it is tested. A large number of CE home projector companies stooped to using (Polycarbonate) plastic for their lens material. Yes plastic. There is not one, credible lens marker in the whole world, that has anything nice to say about plastic being used in a lens, outside of eyeglasses. There has been extensive research and money spend that pretty much determined plastic is the wrong material for a projection lens, as it warps from the heat in short order, distorting the image.

A lot of these CE projector makers use plastic lenses in their base models. For a few hundred or thousand dollars more, the next model up promotes 60,000:1 contrast over the cheaper units 3,000:1 contrast. Both of these units feature 1080P DLP insides. Going from plastic, to a glass lens, is a 4 fold increase in image clarity. They use this hype to get you to buy the more expensive unit, based on contrast lies, not the materials used in construction of the product.

For a projector lens, glass is not glass. There are proven methods and raw materials that make the best lens. Quartz glass that has been diamond cut, rough sand polished, and micro polished offers the best lens there is, as it is able to achieve a transmission rate of 99.2% of the light sent thru it. That is as optically pure as can be made.

And a lot of this also carries over to the TV's as well. As a lot of the TV's and monitors being made today feature plastic, not glass viewing areas. And again the same "contrast" lies are being used to up sale between the two. It has nothing to do with contrast and everything to do with construction material used, the image from the source is the same. Those pesky black bars look really annoying to me on a plastic screen compared to a glass screen. With the death of plasma, comes the death of owning any newer glass screen tv or monitor.
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And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

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post #148 of 153 Old 08-17-2014, 10:40 AM
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Correct, it doesn't change anything the projector is doing. But it DOES improve our perception of contrast.



If the deepest blacks are all around the edges of the image, that would be the case. But they're not (and certainly not 100% of the time). Even the best projector setups can benefit from masking - the same way that any screen can be improved by a black, light-absorbing frame.
Jeff
With out a doubt this is true, in fact the darker a room the more black bars are exposed. My current setup is about as dark as one can get, my room is covered in black velvet, so no reflections just a void. I also have a JVC X500 which is an exceptional performer, stunning really. The black bars are very obvious in contrast to the velvet around the screen and room.

James Reid:D
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post #149 of 153 Old 08-17-2014, 11:24 AM
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Not much of a government regulation guy but it would be nice to have them step in and set some standards for measurements of contrast. Of course it would be nice if the companies would just stop lieing. Thats why these blogs are so important, to help get the info out there so that consumers can make and eductaed decision on their purchases.
And like both of you have said, so much of this stuff is based on perceptions and we all have different perceptions. Some people complain the Optoma HD131xe has terrible skin tones but myself and others find them to be pretty much perfect. With projectors there is just so many variables at play its hard to have 2 people agree on what looks best.
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post #150 of 153 Old 08-17-2014, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindman0v0 View Post
Just from personal experience from owning 3 different projectors and watching quite a few others, contrast is definitely being manipulated by manufacturers. My old Infocus was just 2000:1 and my new HD131xe is 18,000:1, I certainly don't see 9X better contrast on the HD131xe. It is definitely a better picture. I've watched tv's that are supposedly rated over 1,000,000:1 and I've never seen them have any better contrast than my HD131xe. And these are in darkened home theater rooms.
Its just manufacturers playing fast and lose with statistics. A lot of industries are government regulated to supply standardized specifications but the home entertainment companies are not. Would be nice to see them all just decide to quite lieing but thats not how capitalism works.



I think if you are going to see a difference in Contrast you would need to move to a JVC or some of the Epsons. I went from a Benq W7000 to a JVC X500 and the difference in contrast and black level was pretty dam obvious. I think part of the problem with false contrast claims is they are stating Dynamic Contrast not Native. It is the Native Contrast that matters. Although the new JVCs now have a dynamic Iris and it works rather well because it is starting from a high native contrast ratio to begin with.

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