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purchased a avr from an unauthorized dealer, had failure, got money back!

4K views 110 replies 26 participants last post by  turnne1 
#1 ·
I couldn't find a good place to post this and I feel like I got a good deal so I will try it here.

I purchased a denon avr-x4000 from an ebay site for a couple of hundred less than I was able to find it locally or on amazon at that time. It was clickgoandbuy or beststopdeals. I was happy with the unit other than it put out a ton of heat. After 5months the unit started shutting it self off randomly. I called denon and they had me do a few things and decided it needed to go to a service center. They asked where I got it so I told them and they told me I was out of luck and had no warranty at all. I thought I had a 2 year since I purchased it new.

Next I called clickgoandbuy to see what they were going to do and they said my 2weeks were up and they were going to do nothing. They also said they are not an authorized dealer like I should have known that somehow. It looks like I have a $700 space heater.

I told clickgoandbuy I was going to see what ebay and paypal were able to do and figured it would be nothing. I also told them I planed on posting up some negative reviews but I have been through some horrible customer service lately and was determined not to let this get me down. I am enjoying my home theater so much I didn't want to sour my fun and just went out and got a onkyo 737 locally for cheap so I could continue the enjoyment.

I took the 2 minutes to file a dispute with paypal telling them there was no way for me to know the factory warranty was striped from this new denon avr. after a week it was elevated to a claim since the seller wasn't going to do anything about it. After another week paypal ruled on the claim in my favor and requested I return the unit. I returned the unit and 2 days after clickgobuy received it paypal sent me a notice that I should expect to see the entire sales amount refunded to me within 5 days. Keep in mind I have had this unit for over 5 months.

I completely expected to be out that money but paypal came through. :D
 
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#5 ·
I am curious if others feel the same as you do.


beststopdeals has 63 pages of products and a 98% rating on ebay. I think they are a fairly large outfit but who knows. It isn't like I purchased it off of craigs list or a back alley.


I spent $700 on an avr and had an expectation that it would last at least through the warranty period. If a company is selling "NEW" items I would expect that item to come with the factory warranty and if it didn't they should put that on the add. Now I am aware of this "grey" market and will avoid it in the future.
 
#7 ·
You just now figured out eBay is a grey market? If it was a valid distribution channel, Denon would just sell the things themselves with no middle man slurping up extra margin.

Sucks your avr died so soon, I've had lots of Denon products with no problems. In the future be careful. It isn't your fault the product failed, but I don't really see how it's the sellers fault either.
 
#9 ·
Really gets down to the argument that consumers should not have to police the distribution channels of products they buy.

Manufacturers give their "authorized dealers" price breaks for buying in volume. Many do and then resell the goods to "non authorized" dealers, making a profit and letting the next guy make a buck too.

The consumer buys a name brand item, and then gets held accountable for the manufacturer not policing their "authorized" dealers.

The manufacturers win three ways:
1. They save $ not having to check on how their dealers distribute their stock.
2. They move more product.
3. They get to slide on warranty issues.

Sad, but that is business today.
 
#35 ·
If an authorized dealer sells to someone who turns around and resells it, it's a breach of the dealer agreement and is cause for the manufacturer to immediately end that agreement, without recourse by the authorized dealer. That's called 'trans-shipping' and is expressly forbidden.

FYI- the bar code contains the serial number and every time it changes hands, it's scanned. The manufacturers keep a close watch on their products- if they don't, it would cost them a lot of money because warranty claims on equipment sold by unauthorized dealers would be paid, even when the problem is caused by user error. The warranty claim is submitted by the service shop, referencing the serial number.

As a Denon dealer, this is reinforced frequently. As someone who has been in the audio business since 1978, I have seen many dealers cut off by the manufacturers for doing exactly what you think happens but it doesn't happen nearly as often as you think.
 
#10 ·
I purchased a denon avr-x4000 from an ebay site for a couple of hundred less than I was able to find it locally or on amazon at that time.
they told me I was out of luck and had no warranty at all.
Didn't you stop to think "Hmmmm... I wonder why this is a few hundred dollars cheaper than anywhere else?"

I feel like this is your failing - though the blame could be shared if they don't outright come out to describe the lack of a manufacturer warranty.
 
#13 ·
I picked up my onkyo 737 for $450 localy which is cheaper than eBay or Amazon by a decent amount. Sometimes eBay is cheaper, sometimes Amazon and sometimes localy is cheaper. I research what I want then look for the best price. Now i will add make sure they are authorized to sell that unit. My klipsch speakers were way cheaper localy than eBay.

In the future if eBay is cheap enough can you add on a square trade or whatever they call it warranty to a purchase from an unauthorized seller?

Just curious how do you guys feel about a place like Cleveland TV? 6 months ago I almost purchased a $5k TV from him and I don't think they are authorized sellers.
 
#11 ·
Why jump on this guy for not knowing?Why should Denon care who or where he purchased it from.....denon got their cost for this unit and since it was new,should stand behind it..is Authorized a Dealer a phrase for" We want you to purchase from select vendors so they can
Sell for higher profit?"
Denon made..it failed after 5 months...Denon should stand behind it..
That's what serial numbers are for.
 
#14 ·
I agree, What difference does it make to the manufacturer. They got their money why not honor the warranty. Are they selling factory seconds? If so they should be labeled so by the manufacturer. I had a dealer once who said he would match the price of another store on a pair of Klipsch Kg4s. I was at the first dealer at the time. they had ordered my speakers, but another salesman sold them while I was enroute to purchase. When I said I wouldn't wait two weeks for another pair, they found a dealer closer to home who would match the price. When I drove the 2 hrs back, he said he wouldn't honor the warranty. When the owner went away, the salesman told me not to worry about it. He said Klipsch wouldn't let it happen and scratched out the statement on the receipt and initialed it. I never went back. I still have the Kg4s and never had an issue.
 
#12 ·
I have to agree...You robbed a business. Used the product, broke it, and got your money back. 'Buyer beware'...
 
#76 ·
In the grand scheme of things the reason the online dealer can't just refund things 6 months later is who knows when the customer themselves has done something to cause a problem? The receiver could be in such a tight non-ventilated area it is over heating because of that. Some people do the craziest things when attempting to wire things up....
 
#20 ·
> and how do you know the details of this?

Because it is the rep's job to know their customers.

> My point is the merchandise could have come from anywhere....stolen comes to mind

That's a canard. It isn't. The grey market is not the black market.
 
#24 ·
so..you are a rep for Denon?
and how would you know the origin of this particular unit sold on Ebay definitely?

Warren
 
#23 ·
> unauthorized to sell a product, are also unwilling to service a product, as documented already in this thread.

And how would an authorized dealer have "serviced" the product?
They would have sent it right on to Denon for warranty repairs just like parish8 tried to do himself.

It's corporate doublespeak to claim that leaving customers high and dry is protecting them.
 
#25 ·
> unauthorized to sell a product, are also unwilling to service a product, as documented already in this thread.

And how would an authorized dealer have "serviced" the product?
They would have sent it right on to Denon for warranty repairs just like parish8 tried to do himself.

It's corporate doublespeak to claim that leaving customers high and dry is protecting them.
Corporate double speak?

every single one of their websites has multiple statements about buying anywhere other than a non authorized dealer

How much more plain could it be?

Clearly...if you want to take the risk...why would you expect to have the same treatment as someone who bought through authorized channels?

The other part of this story ..that we dont know is....what was the estimate for repair on this unit?
I just dont understand buying through unauthorized channels

I have bought plenty of items...all from authorized dealers...at prices below unauthorized channels

For instance...the unit in this thread was clearanced out at Magnolia Home Theater/Best Buy for $599

Warren
 
#28 ·
Actually, there is a way to fin out if they're authorized- call the manfacturer or look on their website. Most manufacturers have something on their site about unauthorized resellers and warranty. The problem is that unauthorized resellers aren't going to volunteer the information and unless you have or know someone who has had this kind of experience, you not only need to look for the info, you also have to know about it.

It sucks, but at some point, people need to think about the fact that manufacturers couldn't possibly have as many dealers as there are selling online AND the B&M stores and they want dealers & resellers who operate in a way that's (hopefully) professional, knowledgeable and ethical. Not telling potential customers that tehy're not authorized is their first strike.

Did you read anything in the Denon manual about the amount of space they recommend for cooling? They do run a bit warmer than some others and if you had a shelf within a couple of inches of the top of the Denon, that would be a likely cause of it turning itself off.
 
#52 ·
You use Best Buy as an example...Truth be told...they started their spiral when they discontinued Commission sales...commission salesman.....and I work that way in a different industry...achieve a greater level of success when they research and learn about the products involved...
And you are right about bad information being given to the consumer...why bother putting in extra work and study if it does not make that much of an increase in your paycheck?
They always tell you "we don't work on commission" like that is something of a stigma.....perhaps if they did,the info they spew would be more fact than fiction.
 
#53 ·
what spiral are you talking about?
they re the largest electronics retailer in the country....and have greatly expanded their higher end offerings in their Magnolia Design Center concept

Not sure commission salesman in the A/V world are necessarily a good thing...especially in a lrge retail environment

Warren
 
#55 ·
The eBay store was beststopdeals. They list a ton of products and have a high rating.

I asked about price matching at best buy and other local places and they told me they only match the big stores sites like Amazon. That's all they said.

Someone mentioned heat shutting off the unit. That could be but it was and open front and open rear cabinet with 2" clearance on the sides and 5" on the top. Seems like plenty but it got very hot. FYI it shut off when cold sometimes.

It is interesting seeing the various points of view. It seems I should have known better but I don't buy a lot of this type of stuff. My previous avr was a 20year old Sony. I do not feel having to go read the disclaimer on the warranty page counts as clear and obvious. There are lots of pages on the denon site and I did not read very many of them. Just a few to help me pick a unit.

My only hint of this was from 6 months ago I was lookin at a $5k TV from Cleveland plazma. There was a post or two talking about warranty but not much and no talk of anyone actually getting denied. I ended up getting a cheap temporary TV until they make a 80" oled for a resonable price. There was a considerable savings on high end tvs. A grand or two vs local dealers.

I would like to know if square trade warranty would have covered me on this avr?
 
#57 ·
Well...like you stated you got your money back and were made whole
even with what the seller stated their terms and conditions were..you still prevailed

Hopefully you gave them a positive rating because you bested their terms and conditions of sale

So..unless you just wanted the X4000...then you have your money and you are good to go
The warranty information is typically found on many pages of the manufacturers website along with direct links to the authorized dealers right on the start page
What the person at Best Buy probably meant was that they only price match authorized dealers

I dont know of any authorized dealer that will match an unauthorized one and that it typically laid out( in writing) in their price match policy
In any product thread on this forum there is always talk about authorized dealers for the products being posted
There are several forum sponsors that participate in the threads that are authorized dealers...one of which I recently purchased from. Saving money doesn't mean you buy from an unauthorized dealer
AFAIK the item would have had to come with a factory warranty to get a square trade warranty
Though Ebay may have some special deal with them and if so...it would have been given at a "used" rate

as far the 80 OLED getting to a reasonable price...if you mean a reasonable price is under $5K....good luck with that

well...from an authorized dealer anyway.

Warren
 
#58 ·
This "unauthorized dealer" excuse is bull****. When you walk into walmart to buy a package of hanes boxer shorts do you look up on hanes website to make sure they are an "authorized dealer"? No. anyone who says yes is clearly a dealer themselves with a vested interest to keep prices high.

If the item is brand new and you can provide proof of purchase and a serial number, then it is the reponsibility of the manufacturer to service their warranty. The consumer should not have to worry about the distrubution chain.
This is simply a tactic by manufacturers to inflate pricing to consumers and therefore their profit margins and subverts the free market. It is entirely artificial. Without it the market would be free to force bad sellers out of the market and reward good sellers depending on service/price/support/blah blah.

Is it even legal to not honor the warranty if you can prove you bought the item as new?
 
#64 ·
Yep.

Apparently I am the bad guy here.

It doesn't surprise me that there is one guy that feels this way. It does surprise me that there are several people that feel this way.

In the future I will not order from a place if I can not keep the factory warranty.

I do not feel bad for pursuing and receiving a repair or refund.
 
#67 ·
lol...
well you were successful in overriding the sellers rules and regulations

so..some could say that you are the smarter person vs the seller

since you were not impacted financially in any way

Quite honestly....if Ebay is going to enforce this type of policy..no matter what the seller states their conditions are

Then I would assume that sellers that are not authorized will stop their "grey" market sales....at least on Ebay anyway

which is frankly not a bad thing

Warren
 
#72 ·
My initial expectation was for the factory to fix the faulty unit under warranty. you are attempting to use statements out of context.

The seller knows there is no warranty on what they are selling. They are purposefully failing to share this information. They know their sales would plummet if they were 100% upfront about it. This seems dishonest to me.

And again.... Yes you can find the authorized dealer list in one place on the manufactures web site if you know to go looking for it. It isn't plastered all over the place and is not something you are going to stumble across without looking for it. I had no reason to look for it.
 
#81 ·
I didn't get an estimate.

I would have been happy with them repairing the unit or sending me a replacement. They refused to assist in anyway so I elevated it to a PayPal dispute. I figured after trying all the other options I would at that point get an estimate to repair it and consider paying to fix it myself but I got my money back.
 
#85 ·
so you didnt get an estimate?
After the end of a return policy..even at an authorized dealer....its between you and Denon warranty service and has nothing to do with the authorized dealer at that point
You had that you thought you were out the money...but then you started a Paypal dispute?

I think is would have been in the Manufacturer's interest to accept the unit for repair, under warranty, and check out the distribution path of that unit - via the serial # - to see how it ended up in the hands of an unauthorized seller.

This would help them "police" their distribution network and potentially punish an offending dealer.

Instead, they choose to punish a consumer, who may be totally unaware of their distribution agreements with vendors.
why would it have been in their best interest?
I think they want to have a certain standard...whatever those are...for their authorized dealers
I can only imagine this involves some type of legal paperwork and policies that each dealer must adhere to

I personally dont think its hard to find out who the authorized dealers are
But if anything they should make sure that those that are buying these units that its at their own risk

unless orcourse..its an Ebay sale and Paypal circumvents the sellers policy...:cool:

Warren
 
#82 ·
I think is would have been in the Manufacturer's interest to accept the unit for repair, under warranty, and check out the distribution path of that unit - via the serial # - to see how it ended up in the hands of an unauthorized seller.

This would help them "police" their distribution network and potentially punish an offending dealer.

Instead, they choose to punish a consumer, who may be totally unaware of their distribution agreements with vendors.
 
#86 ·
It would be in the manufacturer's best interest to protect their brand integrity and the authorized dealers that are abiding by their distribution agreement.

A sale on E-Bay by an unauthorized dealer is a sale not made through the authorized channel.

I'm guessing that this particular buyer won't be purchasing another product from this brand again, and those reading this type of feedback may interpret that the manufacturer does not stand behind their product (or looks for ways to get out of warranty responsibilities) by hiding behind red tape.
 
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