How Bright Are Your Colors? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 10 Old 02-13-2013, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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In this very geeky episode, Lumita color scientist Karl Lang and 3LCD product manager Tim Anderson explain the difference between measuring white light output and color light output, which should yield the same result but sometimes don't, especially in single-chip DLP projectors, whose color-filter wheels often include white, cyan, magenta, and/or yellow segments to boost the white light output. Unfortunately, these extra segments also sacrifice color accuracy, which is clearly illustrated here.

 

 

Run time: 1:05:09


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post #2 of 10 Old 02-14-2013, 11:10 AM
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Thanks for posting this here on AVS. This total blew my mind! When researching projectors a few years ago I noticed a bit of this light output to color difference but never understood what I was seeing. One of the brightest projectors I saw was a single chip DLP. However that same projector always looked washed out and lacking color while watching normal content when compared to other "less" bright projectors.

This also explains to me why a calibrated projector puts out less light than an un-calibrated projector. Once calibrated all colors would be equal, therefore lowing these spikes in color/light output. I never fully understood this until watching this video.

This is a very interesting discussion to me and would love to learn more.

Thanks again for sharing this here.
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post #3 of 10 Old 02-15-2013, 11:46 PM
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Wow, I think this needs to become common knowledge to anyone interested in projectors.

I'm a fan of single chip DLP projectors. I own two, including one (Acer H5360BD) which has an RGBCYW color wheel. I always assumed that the extra segments in the color wheel meant better picture quality. The CYW segments aren't used in 3D mode (or rather, they're used for the DLP-link flash which gets filtered out by the glasses), so I always thought I must be compromising picture quality for the DLP-link functionality, despite the fact that I couldn't put my finger on anything wrong with the image. Turns out I probably got it backwards! I'll definitely be treating ANSI lumen measurements different from now on.

Another thing I thought of, I've never seen an LED DLP projector before, but I've often heard owners say they seem brighter than their lumen measurements would seem to suggest. I couldn't image how that could be. Maybe it's just people's imagination after all, but perhaps a measure of color lumens vs other projectors could be illuminating.
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post #4 of 10 Old 02-16-2013, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airion View Post

Wow, I think this needs to become common knowledge to anyone interested in projectors.

I'm a fan of single chip DLP projectors. I own two, including one (Acer H5360BD) which has an RGBCYW color wheel. I always assumed that the extra segments in the color wheel meant better picture quality. The CYW segments aren't used in 3D mode (or rather, they're used for the DLP-link flash which gets filtered out by the glasses), so I always thought I must be compromising picture quality for the DLP-link functionality, despite the fact that I couldn't put my finger on anything wrong with the image. Turns out I probably got it backwards! I'll definitely be treating ANSI lumen measurements different from now on.

Another thing I thought of, I've never seen an LED DLP projector before, but I've often heard owners say they seem brighter than their lumen measurements would seem to suggest. I couldn't image how that could be. Maybe it's just people's imagination after all, but perhaps a measure of color lumens vs other projectors could be illuminating.

I am not so sure.

I have two projectors.
1. Sanyo PLV Z2000 which is 3 LCD
2. Acer H9500 BD which is single chip DLP

The colors on Acer are much better and brighter. Sanyo colors look muted.
I do understand what they are saying, but practically I see the exact reverse.
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post #5 of 10 Old 02-16-2013, 07:24 PM
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It's still possible that the Acer could have more color lumens, isn't it? Without a measurement of the two, we don't know.
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post #6 of 10 Old 02-16-2013, 07:35 PM
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I don't think they are saying single chip DLP's are bad. Or that lcds are always better. But more to the point that just because lumens are rated higher the actual light output could be much lower than what they are rated. I think they were using single chip DLP's as an example because they are probably the worst offenders. I believe they even mentioned that a single chip dlp could be rated just as good as any other type of projector if they build it correctly.
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post #7 of 10 Old 02-18-2013, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airion View Post

Wow, I think this needs to become common knowledge to anyone interested in projectors.

I'm a fan of single chip DLP projectors. I own two, including one (Acer H5360BD) which has an RGBCYW color wheel. I always assumed that the extra segments in the color wheel meant better picture quality. The CYW segments aren't used in 3D mode (or rather, they're used for the DLP-link flash which gets filtered out by the glasses), so I always thought I must be compromising picture quality for the DLP-link functionality, despite the fact that I couldn't put my finger on anything wrong with the image. Turns out I probably got it backwards! I'll definitely be treating ANSI lumen measurements different from now on.

Another thing I thought of, I've never seen an LED DLP projector before, but I've often heard owners say they seem brighter than their lumen measurements would seem to suggest. I couldn't image how that could be. Maybe it's just people's imagination after all, but perhaps a measure of color lumens vs other projectors could be illuminating.

Yes, that's correct. They seem brighter to the eye/brain because the LED's make more saturated colors. Our eyes see that as "brighter".

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post #8 of 10 Old 02-18-2013, 09:18 AM
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This is some good stuff
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post #9 of 10 Old 02-18-2013, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stitch1 View Post

I don't think they are saying single chip DLP's are bad. Or that lcds are always better. But more to the point that just because lumens are rated higher the actual light output could be much lower than what they are rated. I think they were using single chip DLP's as an example because they are probably the worst offenders. I believe they even mentioned that a single chip dlp could be rated just as good as any other type of projector if they build it correctly.

You are exactly correct. Single-chip DLPs don't necessarily measure poorly in terms of color light output, but they do tend to be the worst offenders because the manufacturers include white and secondary segments in the color wheel to boost the measured white light output. But when you measure color light output on such projectors, you get a much lower number, and when you watch real-world material, it often looks dull. And you're also right that a single-chip DLP can be made to measure as well as a 3-chip design, but its white light output would not be as high as those with white and secondary segments. And as we all know, marketing is definitely a numbers game for the manufacturers...the larger the number, the better, even if it actually means nothing. So it's up to consumers to set them straight by buying products that perform the best, regardless of the specs.


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post #10 of 10 Old 02-19-2013, 11:49 AM
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I understand a lot more about lumens and how to interpret mfgs associate data than I did before. More with the videos please.
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