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post #1 of 33 Old 03-26-2013, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Video calibrator and THX instructor Michael Chen and calibrator Ray Coronado talk about Michael's series of instructional videos that explain the entire purpose and process of video calibration. They also discuss the difference between a tristimulus colorimeter and a spectroradiometer, calibrating for different ambient-light environments, calibrating from a test-pattern generator versus a Blu-ray player, how it's impossible to completely calibrate a display for broadcast television, answers to chat-room questions, and more.

 


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post #2 of 33 Old 03-26-2013, 03:07 PM
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Thanks for posting this,

Both Ray and Michael have helped me a ton on my calibration journey.
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post #3 of 33 Old 03-26-2013, 03:33 PM
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You know you're an a/v geek if you want to watch a one hour video on TV calibration.

I can't wait to watch it.
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post #4 of 33 Old 03-26-2013, 03:57 PM
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Well I didn't have time to digest the entire video but I will say their pointed disdain for someone simply following along on a calibration appointment to learn a little reeked of, well, guys looking to sell calibration videos.

Shadowing and on the job training is reality of professional life. I've NEVER had a problem with it in 3 major industries and I simply cannot imagine a remotely reasonable person (customer) poo pooing it when handled professionally.

More imperatively, there's absolutely no reason in the world why the customer- the first and foremost priority- should be neglected or short-changed in any way whatsoever. It can and should be an easy win-win for all concerned.

I'm not talking about dragging someone to every appointment, and it should be presented before hand of course, but it certainly shouldn't be flatly deterred in my experience/estimation.

I'm appreciative of the knowledge and insight, as always, just offering another perspective.

Hope to finish the video later, thanks for posting it.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #5 of 33 Old 03-26-2013, 07:27 PM
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Fun to watch... and yes, totally geeky and up the AVSForum alley.

I do think that I've gotten some pretty great calibrations from my sets in the past by using a Colorimeter from the web ($150+), the free HCFR software, the AVS HD 709 disc, and LOTS of studying, reading about calibration right here. (THANKS AVS Forum!)

I'm also a fan of the "Steaming-Rat" method of tweaking... especially for that five minute tweak at a friend's house. Search for it here on AVSForum... it's a classic thread from 2003, ten years ago.

For "joe-public", and the ultraphile, then yes, a pro-calibration is the best way to go. For a "tweaker-geek" like me, I'll always give it a go on my own...that's the hobby fun!

Keep up the great work bringing these videos to AVSForum

Cheers,

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post #6 of 33 Old 03-26-2013, 07:39 PM
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Greetings

The expansion of the answer to the question of bringing people along is as follows:

If that person worked for me then I might consider some form of arrangement.

Problem is ... what Ray and I get are people we don't know from Adam asking us to show them everything we know for free. Sure ... let me give you all my knowledge and experience for free and my time too ... because all that has no value on my end. I should just freely give it out to anyone that asks. If I don't, I'm selfish, right?

That gets me in the poor house.

As my day job, I mentor junior engineers all the time and I can't say no even if I wanted to. Why? Because when I was a junior engineer, someone took the time to mentor me. I am giving back to the industry what I got. Now did anyone mentor me in this industry? Not a one. I had to figure out everything myself. And guess what, it wasn't that hard.

This is like that Hen story about making the bread. Who will help me here .... who will help me there ... Not I ... Not I. Who will help me eat it? Now I'm being selfish because I want to charge people for a slice of bread. How dare I.

Regards
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post #7 of 33 Old 03-26-2013, 07:44 PM
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The use of the term "color-blind" @22:10 is a misnomer... it is officially called a "color vision deficiency", and they come in all sorts of types and degrees.

I'm an aerospace ophthalmologist in the Navy, with a specialty of color vision....

The spectrum of CVD is quite broad, and some are so mild as to test near normal, with no degradation in real-world performance and usually have no idea they are subtly deficient. These very mild CVD persons could *probably* calibrate well... but moderate or severe CVD would be problematic in professional calibration, as the final image must be judged subjectively, after all the objective graphs and tweaks have been made.

For those interested in taking an online, professional grade color-vision test, go to this website:
testingcolorvision.com

Cheers,

Doc Rings
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post #8 of 33 Old 03-26-2013, 07:55 PM
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Michael,

I'm a doctor, and I can't tell a patient every *little* detail of the surgical procedure I am performing while I am doing it (if they're awake)... just too much information they don't understand, nor do I have the time, nor do I want to get distracted from the very important work at hand (!) The education took place before the surgery even started, at the pre-op visit, where they can ask questions, I explain how the surgery will help them and why maybe not.

I agree with you that you can maybe "chit-chat" a little bit, but every minute doing "training" is time you are not working.

I support your position and that's your business model.

thank you for the videos... that's one way you give back to the AVS Forum crowd, and earn some income for your hard work and years of training.

Cheers,
Doc
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post #9 of 33 Old 03-26-2013, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docrings View Post

The use of the term "color-blind" @22:10 is a misnomer... it is officially called a "color vision deficiency", and they come in all sorts of types and degrees.

I'm an aerospace ophthalmologist in the Navy, with a specialty of color vision....

The spectrum of CVD is quite broad, and some are so mild as to test near normal, with no degradation in real-world performance and usually have no idea they are subtly deficient. These very mild CVD persons could *probably* calibrate well... but moderate or severe CVD would be problematic in professional calibration, as the final image must be judged subjectively, after all the objective graphs and tweaks have been made.

For those interested in taking an online, professional grade color-vision test, go to this website:
testingcolorvision.com

Cheers,

Doc Rings
cool.gif

Thanks for the clarification! I appreciate your expertise here, and I will try to abandon the term "color-blind" in the future.

 

As an ophthalmologist, you're the perfect person to ask this question: Is there a vision test that is analogous to an audiogram hearing test? That is, a way to measure a person's sensitivity to the various visible wavelengths of light like an audiogram measures a person's sensitivity to various audible frequencies? I wondered about this on a previous podcast; I don't remember which one, but I do remember that it came up and I didn't know the answer. As I understand it, there are three types of color receptors in the retina (RGB), and each type has its own sensitivity curve, and these curves overlap. But I'd love to understand how this relates to an individual's color perception across the entire visible spectrum, what deficits someone might have, and how a TV might be "miscalibrated" to compensate for those deficits.


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post #10 of 33 Old 03-26-2013, 08:30 PM
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Scott,

Yes, there is a test that does just what you are thinking. The Navy (well, me and my resident aerospace medicine physicians) have validated over the past year a particular computerized color vision software package that tests each of the three cone types independently from one another (red, green, and blue cones), with decreasing saturation on a neutral grey background... at some point, the very desaturated numeral "disappears" to the patient, and that is the threshold of that particular cone-type in that person's eye. We have sampled the known 'color normal' population and known 'color deficient' population, and have statistically mapped out what the "normal" threshold is for each cone type.

The website I posted earlier (Testingcolorvision.com) is by the developer, Dr. Terrace Waggoner. The online public test does much the same thing as the Navy test software...but only tests the individual color desaturation plates if the tester scores below normal on the first set of typical pseudoisochromatic plates (PIP or "colored bubble dot" test books). It could actually be a part of the THX seminar, for example, if they purchased a group package... it'd be nice for a calibrator-in-training to know for certain he/she was "color normal" (and get a certificate to that effect). I have no financial interest in this website.

I can send you a flyer for the software which we just began using in the Navy for testing pilots and aircrew/air traffic controllers. The old tests were just not sensitive enough to determine color vision deficiency, and inherently unreliable for screening.

PM me and I'll be happy send you more details on this very rapidly developing field of color vision testing.

Regarding the mis-calibration by someone who was color deficient: for example, someone who was "red-weak" would tend to adjust the television with much more red saturation, maybe tweak tint a bit, and increase the brightness a bit to make a picture look better, and a green-weak person might add more green saturation to the picture. Rarely, someone might be "blue-weak", usually from an acquired eye condition or central nervous system disease (optic neuritis, glaucoma, etc.). What would save someone with CVD, would be the use of the software and colorimeter... if they knew they were color vision deficient, they should trust the gear, not their eyes...but they would not be able to do that last critical subjective reality check on the source material.

Cheers,

Doc Rings
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post #11 of 33 Old 03-26-2013, 09:07 PM
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Greetings

This test sounds fascinating to do in the class environment, but I wonder if it will also create some dejected people as well when it goes badly for them.

Not as bad as sitting in the room waiting for results to see if you have cancer or not ... but smashed dreams all the same.

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post #12 of 33 Old 03-26-2013, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Doc! Wow, great info, glad to meet you! And Michael is exactly right; some attendees might be bitterly disappointed. But knowing the exact nature of any deficiency could let you intelligently compensate for it in the display.


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post #13 of 33 Old 03-27-2013, 06:15 AM
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There's no question, calibration improved my TV's image quality quite a bit. I became familiar with the benefits of professional calibration because I am a photographer by trade. I enjoy color-correcting images using Photoshop on my HDTV, so accurate color is a must.

The HDTV I use is a Vizio M3D550KD; 3D seemed to benefit from the calibration, even more so than 2D. After calibration the realism I saw in movies like "I Robot 3D" and "Top Gun 3D" was striking, despite the fact they are 3D conversions of older movies.

Here are links to a website that has free color vision tests, for the curious. If you don't need certification of your color vision, perhaps for a federal job, there's no need to spend $30. I'm happy to have passed.

This link leads directly to a simple, free, and interactive test: http://www.colour-blindness.com/colour-blindness-tests/colour-arrangement-test/

This test uses the same "tiles" (Waggoner/Ishihara) as the site that charges, but it's also free: http://www.colour-blindness.com/colour-blindness-tests/ishihara-colour-test-plates/

The terms "color blind" and "color blindness" appear in every major reference I checked including OED, Wikipedia, Princeton WordNet, and WebMD. It is listed as a synonym of color vision deficiency, but I saw no indication it's use is wrong.

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post #14 of 33 Old 03-27-2013, 09:28 AM
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looking forward to trying this.
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post #15 of 33 Old 03-27-2013, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Well I didn't have time to digest the entire video but I will say their pointed disdain for someone simply following along on a calibration appointment to learn a little reeked of, well, guys looking to sell calibration videos.

Shadowing and on the job training is reality of professional life. I've NEVER had a problem with it in 3 major industries and I simply cannot imagine a remotely reasonable person (customer) poo pooing it when handled professionally.

More imperatively, there's absolutely no reason in the world why the customer- the first and foremost priority- should be neglected or short-changed in any way whatsoever. It can and should be an easy win-win for all concerned.

I'm not talking about dragging someone to every appointment, and it should be presented before hand of course, but it certainly shouldn't be flatly deterred in my experience/estimation.

I'm appreciative of the knowledge and insight, as always, just offering another perspective.

Hope to finish the video later, thanks for posting it.

James
This post demonstrates the typical, repulsive, false, sense of entitlement and resentment too common in this and many other public forums, and contemporary culture at large.. "Pointed disdain"....."reeked of, well, guys looking to sell"........"NEVER"......"cannot imagine a remotely reasonable person"....."poo pooing"......"More imperatively, there's absolutely no reason in the world"....."should be an easy win-win for all"....."certainly shouldn't be flatly deterred in my experience/estimation." You remarked that you "didn't have time to digest the entire video" yet you found the time to post drivel that wastes our time in reading it. I found it insulting. Then you attempt to cover for its rudeness by the closing two sentences. It only sounds schizophrenic and juvenile.

Any business owner has the absolute right to use whatever business model he deems appropriate for his temperament, goals, procedures, standards, and market. Knowing what I do about a certain segment of this hobbyist community, Michael and Ray would likely be inundated by inquiries from would-be tweak-geeks wanting to go along on jobs. If they gave any hint in this video interview of allowing such practice, they would never cease being approached for it. They were quite wise to squelch the issue. You are very presumptuous to question their motives or reasoning. They are completely capable of determining how much of a distraction a tag-along would be for them while endeavoring to serve their clients properly.

I know both men, but especially Michael. My respect, admiration, and gratitude have been earned by each of them. They enjoy teaching, and have demonstrated technical proficiency, plus both professional and personal generosity in this community for many years. The video series they collaborated on is worth far beyond what is being charged for it. It's practically a "steal" by any fair measure.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
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post #16 of 33 Old 03-27-2013, 11:00 AM
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Hi iMagic,

You are right that the term "color blindness" is pretty ubiquitous, but as in many things, terms change as we better understand the disease, and help to better communicate the condition. In the medical world, those of us who deal with this on a professional level use the term "Color Vision Deficiency", or CVD. Since this forum is all about "science" and leading-edge technology, I knew it would be something the forum would be interesting to know.

When a typical lay-person here's "color-blind"... they tend to think the person sees in black & white... which is not true for the vast majority of CVD patients. They see color...just different than the other 92% of the normal population, and the term 'deficiency' helps connote that there are degrees of color vision reduction and sensitivity.

There are some quick & free websites to check color vision... which are fine. But, if professional certification is required (police, fire, bomb squads, lab technicians, etc.), then you need the most sensitive and specific tests, that have been validated by the research. Hence, the link I sent that does just that.

The free sites are a quick-n-easy thing to check, though, for fun, and give some modicum of whether one is color normal or color deficient for the lay-person.

Cheers,

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post #17 of 33 Old 03-27-2013, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docrings View Post

Hi iMagic,

You are right that the term "color blindness" is pretty ubiquitous, but as in many things, terms change as we better understand the disease, and help to better communicate the condition. In the medical world, those of us who deal with this on a professional level use the term "Color Vision Deficiency", or CVD. Since this forum is all about "science" and leading-edge technology, I knew it would be something the forum would be interesting to know.

When a typical lay-person here's "color-blind"... they tend to think the person sees in black & white... which is not true for the vast majority of CVD patients. They see color...just different than the other 92% of the normal population, and the term 'deficiency' helps connote that there are degrees of color vision reduction and sensitivity.

There are some quick & free websites to check color vision... which are fine. But, if professional certification is required (police, fire, bomb squads, lab technicians, etc.), then you need the most sensitive and specific tests, that have been validated by the research. Hence, the link I sent that does just that.

The free sites are a quick-n-easy thing to check, though, for fun, and give some modicum of whether one is color normal or color deficient for the lay-person.
a soCheers,

Dr. Rings cool.gif

Thank you Dr. Rings, I agree color-blind has a very absolute connotation to it, I understand why you'd use the preferred medical term and teach people about it's use.

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post #18 of 33 Old 03-28-2013, 07:38 AM
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I for one can admit to color blindness.
but I can see the difference between the "colored crayons."
so I see light in a different way. because of this some times I can set things up and see
wrong variations to true life in my eyes.
maybe it helps in adjusting set ups. just my own that is.
when I post any settings on screen set ups I always make the comment I am color blind
and check your own, but this is what I found looks best to me. I have had many guest visit my
house and they all were amazed at the picture. I ask them if any colors look off as I am colorblind,
they always say no perfect, best they ever saw.
thanks for the color tests

my HT
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post #19 of 33 Old 03-28-2013, 12:59 PM
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The conversation around the 20 to 25 minute mark is very interesting. The general thesis is that pretty graphs cannot guarantee a pretty picture. Brief mention was made of the color decoder's contribution to this problem. I quite agree, as I have participated in many threads that discuss what saturation point is the best compromise for a particular display's color decoder and how other saturation levels fall into line, or don't fall into line. So to me, the new CalMAN/Chromapure/Light Illusion multi-point calibration systems are a real breakthrough for the home market.

What do you think of these new calibration systems (often called "Color Cubes") that calibrate along saturation and luminance ramps to corral these wacky decoders? I have CalMAN's version with a Radiance and a C6. For me the results are spec-tac-ular on my old JVC RS20, especially with the gamma dialed in. In this case, pretty graphs produce stunning pictures! I had no idea a movie could look this good in a home theater. Currently it takes 3 minutes to run a 21 point gamma/grayscale calibration and about 30 minutes for a 125 point color cube.
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post #20 of 33 Old 03-29-2013, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

The conversation around the 20 to 25 minute mark is very interesting. The general thesis is that pretty graphs cannot guarantee a pretty picture. Brief mention was made of the color decoder's contribution to this problem. I quite agree, as I have participated in many threads that discuss what saturation point is the best compromise for a particular display's color decoder and how other saturation levels fall into line, or don't fall into line. So to me, the new CalMAN/Chromapure/Light Illusion multi-point calibration systems are a real breakthrough for the home market.

What do you think of these new calibration systems (often called "Color Cubes") that calibrate along saturation and luminance ramps to corral these wacky decoders? I have CalMAN's version with a Radiance and a C6. For me the results are spec-tac-ular on my old JVC RS20, especially with the gamma dialed in. In this case, pretty graphs produce stunning pictures! I had no idea a movie could look this good in a home theater. Currently it takes 3 minutes to run a 21 point gamma/grayscale calibration and about 30 minutes for a 125 point color cube.

Color-cube calibration was the focus of my conversation with Derek Smith, CEO of SpectraCal, in episode 129 of Home Theater Geeks, which you can find here. I agree that it is a big step forward in calibration technology.


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post #21 of 33 Old 03-31-2013, 06:22 AM
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After calibration, can you still see video level 17 for video based content?

If you are suppose to, please let most pro calibrators know, as they seem to forget this... wink.gif
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post #22 of 33 Old 03-31-2013, 06:43 AM
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Greetings

No one thinks this in my circle of calibrators and THX calibrators certainly are not taught this.

Although there has been cases of some who have gone through class getting so smart that they start to ignore what was taught and establishing their own standards.

The videos also exist as a compliment to those that have taken the THX and the ISF classes. It is supposed to ensure that the fundamentals as taught in the classes are not forgotten. (And believe me, people do forget a lot in these classes since they only have hand written notes to rely on and the slide set in the case of THX.)

Regards

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post #23 of 33 Old 04-01-2013, 02:27 PM
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Thanks for the great info!!

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post #24 of 33 Old 04-02-2013, 06:35 PM
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I hope you don't mind if I ask -- why do you think that a Blu-ray is inferior to a standalone pattern generator? Is it because of the 4:2:0 output? Or are there other reasons? I am very curious about this and I would really like to know.

Thanks very much.
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post #25 of 33 Old 04-03-2013, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

This post demonstrates the typical, repulsive, false, sense of entitlement and resentment too common in this and many other public forums, and contemporary culture at large.. "Pointed disdain"....."reeked of, well, guys looking to sell"........"NEVER"......"cannot imagine a remotely reasonable person"....."poo pooing"......"More imperatively, there's absolutely no reason in the world"....."should be an easy win-win for all"....."certainly shouldn't be flatly deterred in my experience/estimation." You remarked that you "didn't have time to digest the entire video" yet you found the time to post drivel that wastes our time in reading it. I found it insulting. Then you attempt to cover for its rudeness by the closing two sentences. It only sounds schizophrenic and juvenile.

Any business owner has the absolute right to use whatever business model he deems appropriate for his temperament, goals, procedures, standards, and market. Knowing what I do about a certain segment of this hobbyist community, Michael and Ray would likely be inundated by inquiries from would-be tweak-geeks wanting to go along on jobs. If they gave any hint in this video interview of allowing such practice, they would never cease being approached for it. They were quite wise to squelch the issue. You are very presumptuous to question their motives or reasoning. They are completely capable of determining how much of a distraction a tag-along would be for them while endeavoring to serve their clients properly.

I know both men, but especially Michael. My respect, admiration, and gratitude have been earned by each of them. They enjoy teaching, and have demonstrated technical proficiency, plus both professional and personal generosity in this community for many years. The video series they collaborated on is worth far beyond what is being charged for it. It's practically a "steal" by any fair measure.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

The above was absolutely misrepresentative, exaggeratory, and unnecessarily combative and volatile- all in one post.

I'm speaking of- CLEARLY- a one-off "follow" or "shadow" -not a "free" offering of any and all expertise or industry/products, including a video series. The distinction between the two is and was clear as crystal to anyone who actually took the time to read and comprehend the text instead just letting go with a completely inaccurate knee-jerk response of: "yeah you're another one of those guys who expects everything to be free". Easy to "virtually" beat a guy up when he walks away from his lap-top, though. rolleyes.gif

Of course that nonsense cannot be further from the truth but again it's much easier to misrepresent and vilify the guy who offered a differing perspective on the thousands-of-years old custom of a "follow".

Last spare me of the personal insult of being "juvenile" and "schizophrenic" (if for no other reason then it violates AVS forum rules) because I included a compliment and thank you for the info and interview on the whole.

Imagine that, both an opposing viewpoint and an attaboy for the same one hour video.

Let's talk about "juvenile".

Again, thank you Scott, Michael and Ray, please accept my apology if you were led to understand that I believe all calibration knowledge and expertise should be a "free lunch" for everyone.


James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #26 of 33 Old 04-03-2013, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

The expansion of the answer to the question of bringing people along is as follows:

If that person worked for me then I might consider some form of arrangement.

Problem is ... what Ray and I get are people we don't know from Adam asking us to show them everything we know for free. Sure ... let me give you all my knowledge and experience for free and my time too ... because all that has no value on my end. I should just freely give it out to anyone that asks. If I don't, I'm selfish, right?

That gets me in the poor house.

As my day job, I mentor junior engineers all the time and I can't say no even if I wanted to. Why? Because when I was a junior engineer, someone took the time to mentor me. I am giving back to the industry what I got. Now did anyone mentor me in this industry? Not a one. I had to figure out everything myself. And guess what, it wasn't that hard.

This is like that Hen story about making the bread. Who will help me here .... who will help me there ... Not I ... Not I. Who will help me eat it? Now I'm being selfish because I want to charge people for a slice of bread. How dare I.

Regards

As a business owner, software developer, computer guy I agree totally.

I have customers that purchase our software and then for some reason have the expectation that we are going to setup their server/client or peer to peer networking, configure their backup service for it, tweak anti-virus etc, etc, etc and then shocked when we tell them that we do networking for a rate of $450/3 hours and $120 there after.

Look you simply purchased the software. It's like purchasing a crate engine for your car and expecting Autozone to put it in. For free.

I just had another customer ask if the $3000 our software costs includes: Onsite (air fare, hotel, car, meals) a computer, cash drawer, receipt printer, barcode scanner, camera. I find myself questioning the average IQ of my fellow humans at that point. Come on just have a real internal conversation with yourself. As soon as the tag along question was asked I knew all the reasons and what the answer would be. Please don't act shocked.

Now when I did AV installs for 7 years (Commodore Amiga Video Toaster/Flyer, Mac with Avid etc...) I learned calibration from other industry pro's but no formal THX/ISF classes. But I had access to all the tools. I also showed all my linear colleagues the computer side of stuff. But never on the customer dime and 99% of the time it was at the shop. Setup the tandem PJ's, the big RP sets, CRT etc and learn there.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #27 of 33 Old 04-03-2013, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

The above was absolutely misrepresentative, exaggeratory, and unnecessarily combative and volatile- all in one post.

I'm speaking of- CLEARLY- a one-off "follow" or "shadow" -not a "free" offering of any and all expertise or industry/products, including a video series. The distinction between the two is and was clear as crystal to anyone who actually took the time to read and comprehend the text instead just letting go with a completely inaccurate knee-jerk response of: "yeah you're another one of those guys who expects everything to be free". Easy to "virtually" beat a guy up when he walks away from his lap-top, though. rolleyes.gif

Of course that nonsense cannot be further from the truth but again it's much easier to misrepresent and vilify the guy who offered a differing perspective on the thousands-of-years old custom of a "follow".

Last spare me of the personal insult of being "juvenile" and "schizophrenic" (if for no other reason then it violates AVS forum rules) because I included a compliment and thank you for the info and interview on the whole.

Imagine that, both an opposing viewpoint and an attaboy for the same one hour video.

Let's talk about "juvenile".

Again, thank you Scott, Michael and Ray, please accept my apology if you were led to understand that I believe all calibration knowledge and expertise should be a "free lunch" for everyone.


James

I think you are off the mark there personally. You can attend the same classes and make the same $$ / Time / Materials investment that they did.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #28 of 33 Old 04-03-2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

...

I'm speaking of- CLEARLY- a one-off "follow" or "shadow" -not a "free" offering of any and all expertise or industry/products, including a video series. The distinction between the two is and was clear as crystal to anyone who actually took the time to read and comprehend the text instead just letting go with a completely inaccurate knee-jerk response of: "yeah you're another one of those guys who expects everything to be free". ...

It's a "distinction" without a difference. No amount of semantic machinations will create a "distinction" where none exists. If I were to go to a client's site with a one-off "follow" or "shadow" who was not a part of my company, I think that client would terminate my contract right then and there, and rightly so. "Who is this guy??" And I would have no credible answer. I would never do that to my client or put myself in that position. Never. It is completely unprofessional.
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

I think you are off the mark there personally. You can attend the same classes and make the same $$ / Time / Materials investment that they did.

Right on.
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post #29 of 33 Old 04-03-2013, 11:09 AM
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The next thing I believe people have pop into their mind: Why should I have a $1200 TV paired with a $400 calibration. It's not about the cost of the toaster. It's the quality of the toast it makes.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #30 of 33 Old 04-03-2013, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by erkq View Post

It's a "distinction" without a difference. No amount of semantic machinations will create a "distinction" where none exists. If I were to go to a client's site with a one-off "follow" or "shadow" who was not a part of my company, I think that client would terminate my contract right then and there, and rightly so. "Who is this guy??" And I would have no credible answer. I would never do that to my client or put myself in that position. Never. It is completely unprofessional.
Right on.


Sigh. The word "semantics" has to be the most misused, overused- and frankly, flat-out abused words in the English language, lmao. Sounds great, though, right?

I get it, you don't understand where taking veritable strangers to job sites and my allusion to "something else" (I'll let you figure out what that is) divides like a fork in the road. Ok.

Forget it, Just continue to assume- better yet, CONTEND- that I'm speaking of pulling guys off AVS and bringing them into folks' homes...makes for a splendid strawman argument.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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