The Science of the Room with Paul Hales - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 165 Old 07-02-2013, 09:28 AM
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thanks for all the info. I think I know what my next receiver upgrade will be. The realtime feedback is certainly enticing now that I know the subs get handled well.
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post #92 of 165 Old 07-02-2013, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post


With audyssey, the mic is uncalibrated and you get no assistance with placement. You have no idea or any control over what it's doing to your system. It's completely opaque, and it's audyssey's way or the highway...it's just an incomplete solution for those who really care about audio.

Ha ha, ok so I must not Really care about audio, just enough to have my new place pre-wired for 9.4 and buy Floyd Toole's book. With time I'll learn to really care. wink.gif

Just kidding, thanks for sharing the anthem info. Glad your happy with it.
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post #93 of 165 Old 07-02-2013, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by toddRiffic View Post


Ha ha, ok so I must not Really care about audio, just enough to have my new place pre-wired for 9.4 and buy Floyd Toole's book. With time I'll learn to really care. wink.gif

Just kidding, thanks for sharing the anthem info. Glad your happy with it.

Perhaps I could have worded that more delicately. tongue.gif

What I really meant to say was along the lines of "for those that really care about the underlying details."
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post #94 of 165 Old 07-02-2013, 02:07 PM
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ARC is an amazing product. How Anthem put it into their $1000 receiver is amazing (with calibrated mic included too!!)

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post #95 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 12:23 AM
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Perhaps I could have worded that more delicately. tongue.gif

What I really meant to say was along the lines of "for those that really care about the underlying details."

The underlying details is the end result " Can it sound like music and not harm it, but in addition to that increase it's "Fidelity" and not forget this applies to movies as well. I came from the treat the acoustics of the room camp and Am still a member, as of recently I upgraded my pre/processor to catch up with the times and also see what DRC bought to the table . I came to the conclusion after a lot of careful listening( I tend to sweat the details) and many runs of Audyssey XT32 , that there was no denying how it took things to the next level and what surprised me was its ability to handle complex classical sacd with a surgeons care and did no harm but made music! weight and slam and the onslaught of brass and the strike of the bow across the strings maintained there tonality and cymbal crashes didn't become strident but still had impact and shimmer. Down the road perhaps the Pro Kit! but as of now music and movies have never sound better.

Count me in the Audyssey on camp!

Can you say

Time domain ! biggrin.gif
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post #96 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 05:47 AM
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I bet if there was a poll here on AVS asking about room calibration, and if it helps or hurts, there would be way more voters opting for the former. MCACC has saved my day! cool.gif
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post #97 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 08:15 AM
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I do agree with Mr. hales that bass can be directional. That's one of the reasons why I run quad subs so that I'm not noticing a single sub as the source of the low bass. To me, I hear/perceive the bass coming from wherever the the other associated higher frequency sounds are coming from in the room, I don't get that same effect with a single sub.

I rarely watch concerts and would much rather have "non directional" bass for movie surround sound. Anyone with multiple subs also experience this?
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post #98 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddRiffic View Post

I do agree with Mr. hales that bass can be directional. That's one of the reasons why I run quad subs so that I'm not noticing a single sub as the source of the low bass. To me, I hear/perceive the bass coming from wherever the the other associated higher frequency sounds are coming from in the room, I don't get that same effect with a single sub.

I rarely watch concerts and would much rather have "non directional" bass for movie surround sound. Anyone with multiple subs also experience this?

I don't have multiple subs, but with a single sub in certain situations I've definitely been able to localize it. For example, in my current room, there's a wall on the left side, but just a curtain separating out the room from a much wider open space on the right.

When I placed my sub on the left wall, xover at 60hz, it was immediately apparent where the bass was coming from, and was pretty awful to listen to...It wasn't subtle at all. It was probably a combination of the placement of the sub and the lack of reflectivity from the other side, but it was undeniable. I since moved the sub to be directly behind the couch, and I can't really localize it anymore.

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post #99 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddRiffic View Post

I do agree with Mr. hales that bass can be directional. That's one of the reasons why I run quad subs so that I'm not noticing a single sub as the source of the low bass. To me, I hear/perceive the bass coming from wherever the the other associated higher frequency sounds are coming from in the room, I don't get that same effect with a single sub.

I rarely watch concerts and would much rather have "non directional" bass for movie surround sound. Anyone with multiple subs also experience this?

This greatly depends on the sub, if its designed well one sub can successfully track all the high and mid frequencies around the room and place bass there like each speaker had its own dedicated sub eek.gif Myself and other owners of Ken Kreisel's new DXD12012 have all noticed this as at first i thought I was crazy and was going to go down the path of multiple subs around the room to achieve this effect, however I do still plan to add another sub in the future but it will still be placed in the front right corner of the room as they are meant to be stacked. the real kicker was the crossover was set at 90hz for the center and surrounds and the mains at 80 hz. wink.gif

funny thing though, Ken feels the same as Paul does biggrin.gif
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post #100 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

This greatly depends on the sub, if its designed well one sub can successfully track all the high and mid frequencies around the room and place bass there like each speaker had its own dedicated sub eek.gif Myself and other owners of Ken Kreisel's new DXD12012 have all noticed this as at first i thought I was crazy and was going to go down the path of multiple subs around the room to achieve this effect, however I do still plan to add another sub in the future but it will still be placed in the front right corner of the room as they are meant to be stacked. the real kicker was the crossover was set at 90hz for the center and surrounds and the mains at 80 hz. wink.gif

funny thing though, Ken feels the same as Paul does biggrin.gif

No subwoofer can do what you just described on its own; you still have to put the effort into proper placement and system integration—no matter what—when setting up a sub. I've heard Ken Kreisel's subs are very capable, low distortion and good dynamics go a long way towards helping a sub integrate with a speaker system. As you note, and as stated on the website, they DXD12012 is actually designed to be implemented in a multi-sub system. Buying one is "your first step to a KEN KREISEL Ultimate Signature Studio Subwoofer System." Enjoy the journey.

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post #101 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I since moved the sub to be diry behind the couch, and I can't really localize it anymore.

Nearfield placement, up against the couch?
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post #102 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

No subwoofer can do what you just described; you have to put the effort into proper placement—no matter what—when setting up a single sub. I've heard Ken Kreisel's subs are very capable, low distortion and good dynamics go a long way towards helping a sub integrate with a speaker system.[/quote

You better bet your bottom dollar effort went into placement to extreme of my OCD being satisfied biggrin.gif (many, many hours) Believe or not its even corner loaded and is exactly 3.4inches from the sidewall (driver facing) and 6.7 from the rear wall , I'm sure other well designed subs can pull this off if placed well and designed well. This wasn't something subtle, but very apparent and if you get a chance to hear one don't pass it up. At first I thought it was the good job I did with treating the room with bass traps and panels and the addition of Audyssey but after chatting with others on the AVForums, others had the same impressions. so is it possible ? yes indeed it is wink.gif
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post #103 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 10:38 AM
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You better bet your bottom dollar effort went into placement to extreme of my OCD being satisfied biggrin.gif (many, many hours) Believe or not its even corner loaded and is exactly 3.4inches from the sidewall (driver facing) and 6.7 from the rear wall , I'm sure other well designed subs can pull this off if placed well and designed well. This wasn't something subtle, but very apparent and if you get a chance to hear one don't pass it up. At first I thought it was the good job I did with treating the room with bass traps and panels and the addition of Audyssey but after chatting with others on the AVForums, others had the same impressions. so is it possible ? yes indeed it is wink.gif

Your efforts were rewarded, I assure you that every step you performed was crucial to the end result—including the room treatment. My only comment was that a sub can't do what you described on its own. I'm not surprised to hear how much effort you actually put into getting your result. wink.gif

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post #104 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 10:50 AM
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Your efforts were rewarded, I assure you that every step you performed was crucial to the end result. My only comment was that a sub can;t do what you described on its own. I'm not surprised to hear how much effort you actually put into getting your result. wink.gif

Thanks!
I've been at this for quite awhile and it was indeed very impressive results and when upgrading from an M&k MX150 ( which was localizable in the same corner at 12" all around) , the wife told me to get two but I played the modest fellow wink.gif to save my chips for when I need them. While you're correct on the DXD12012 being designed to function as a whole to take advantage of what ken calls the 3d pulsar effect, as a stand alone unit and the way it couples to the room by design ( look closely at the dispersion pattern) while I'm not sure if this is why but its a sealed design but disperses bass in 3 directions with nothing coming directly at you unless you turn and fire the driver at the MLP or into the room itself, whatever it is my main reason for getting a second down the road is for the 3d pulsar effect and the additional gain of 6db at all frequencies biggrin.gif
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post #105 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddRiffic View Post

Nearfield placement, up against the couch?

Yeah, just a few inches right behind my seat...my room is dimensions are really bizarre, in a lot of ways it's the most convenient place. So not physically touching it, but it's an 18 incher so you definitely feel it.

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post #106 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 11:18 AM
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Yeah, just a few inches right behind my seat...my room is dimensions are really bizarre, in a lot of ways it's the most convenient place. So not physically touching it, but it's an 18 incher so you definitely feel it.

I tried that once and it was so much tactile energy, that it was too much for me. My lazyboy to the right of the mlp is pretty much nearfield to one of my subs and It's fun to occasionally "ride the bass" there. smile.gif
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post #107 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 11:25 AM
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Yeah, just a few inches right behind my seat...my room is dimensions are really bizarre, in a lot of ways it's the most convenient place. So not physically touching it, but it's an 18 incher so you definitely feel it.

For a while, I used a near field configuration for my subwoofers. While it was perfect for movies, the physical shaking was a bit much for music. For the most part I'm happier with them up front; but sometimes I miss the way explosions would kind of lift me off the couch. Meanwhile, I appreciate how natural music sounds in the current configuration, with a pair of subs behind each of my main speakers.

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post #108 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by toddRiffic View Post

I tried that once and it was so much tactile energy, that it was too much for me. My lazyboy to the right of the mlp is pretty much nearfield to one of my subs and It's fun to occasionally "ride the bass" there. smile.gif

That's mainly the reason why I tried it in the first place. I'm in a basement right on top of concrete, so there's very little tactile energy even at ref level when it's 7-8 feet away. The sub is powerful enough to fake an earthquake back in my 6th floor apt (my neighbors really didn't appreciate that). But in my basement it'd legitimately have to move planet earth in order to achieve the same effect...not gonna happen. Placing it near field brought a lot of that back, and smoothed out the bass quite a bit as well.

I find that over concrete at least, the couch shaking quotient drops off pretty quickly as you move it away, so I've been able to tune it to be just right by moving it a few inches back.

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post #109 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

For a while, I used a near field configuration for my subwoofers. While it was perfect for movies, the physical shaking was a bit much for music. For the most part I'm happier with them up front; but sometimes I miss the way explosions would kind of lift me off the couch. Meanwhile, I appreciate how natural music sounds in the current configuration, with a pair of subs behind each of my main speakers.

I considered moving it back up front and buying a transducer instead...but I've never tried one before, so I figure if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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post #110 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 04:34 PM
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Setting tactile transducers is very tricky. If you set it too high, it will feel artificial, if you set it too low, it will also feel artificial.

For my tactile transducers, I have to EQ so the transducers actually complement the sub sound. NOT adding, NOT extending.

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post #111 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 06:22 PM
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Setting tactile transducers is very tricky. If you set it too high, it will feel artificial, if you set it too low, it will also feel artificial.

For my tactile transducers, I have to EQ so the transducers actually complement the sub sound. NOT adding, NOT extending.

I would have thought they'd be most useful if they mainly covered the subsonic frequencies, like 30hz and below.

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post #112 of 165 Old 07-03-2013, 06:25 PM
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That's what I thought too, but after buying and installing them in my own theatre (and commercial theatres plus clienteles' home theatres), using them just as an extension is not "natural" enough. There is a certain detached feeling.

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That's what I thought too, but after buying and installing them in my own theatre (and commercial theatres plus clienteles' home theatres), using them just as an extension is not "natural" enough. There is a certain detached feeling.

Could it be that at such low frequencies its really obvious when it's even slightly out of phase?

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post #114 of 165 Old 07-04-2013, 06:35 PM
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Can be because of that. Sonically, when the low frequency phase is off even by a little bit, it's very easy to tell.

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post #115 of 165 Old 07-08-2013, 06:45 PM
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Thanks Scott (and Paul). That was great.
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post #116 of 165 Old 07-21-2013, 03:48 PM
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Not in this section of the forum, where most threads get very few replies (in the single digits).

Yes; I only saw this because Sanjay gave a link in another thread.

Great and interesting interview, except for the odd conclusion about "too smooth over-corrected bass, as well as a bit too simplistic dismissal of EQ because we don't hear like mic's do.

The example of the mic adding all reflections and giving "the wrong answer" does not apply to more sophisticated RC implementations that gate the sound, i.e measure for a short time, before the reflections arrive at the mic.

My mid-range HK 635 did this by including a measurement with the mike placed right in front of the front speakers (L/R for sure, I forget if the center was as well).

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post #117 of 165 Old 07-21-2013, 04:28 PM
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Noah, I think Roger summed it up best in the other thread: there is no case that can be made against all EQ, only against bad EQ.

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post #118 of 165 Old 07-21-2013, 06:06 PM
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When tasked to create an optimum listening experience, I start with what the user has, make that the best it can be by treating the environment first. Then areas of lacking content can be fine tuned. Equalizing has its place, in a preamp stage but proves difficult with streaming or compressed digital content. Making up for missing content by reducing peak points and then raising volume just muddles the entire content. Some bad elements(glass lamps, uncovered windows or large appliances) can be used to help boost via reflection . Even adding half section room dividers can help. Each room is not perfect nor is the content. Even positioning speaker cabinets upside down can have astounding results.
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post #119 of 165 Old 07-21-2013, 09:48 PM
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Hi Sanjay,

Yes, but it would be easy to conclude from what Paul said that there's no such thing as good EQ above the transition region.
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Noah, I think Roger summed it up best in the other thread: there is no case that can be made against all EQ, only against bad EQ.

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post #120 of 165 Old 07-22-2013, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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In my viewing environment the audyssey on or off question is lol obvious. On. I'd bet the op would agree too if he were here. Although I guess I could build a studio....


How can I agree or disagree, since I don't know your environment? Also, it's not the viewing environment that Audyssey addresses, but the listening environment.


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