Ultimate Ultra High Definition with Joe Kane - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 10-29-2013, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Video guru Joe Kane goes into great detail about the UHD video system and what he would like to see included in it, such as wider color gamut, higher bit depth and dynamic range, less-aggressive color subsampling, higher frame rates, and better codecs. He explains why these parameters are more important than raw pixel resolution and bemoans that the current UHD standard, ITU-R Recommendation BT-2020, doesn't go nearly far enough. Plus answers to chat-room questions and more.

 


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post #2 of 22 Old 10-29-2013, 12:56 PM
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There already is quite a bit of discussion of this podcast in the HDMI 2.0 podcast thread.


Once again Scott, a truly great interview conducted by you.

I urge all to watch it. If it was Dancing with the Stars, Scott would get a TEN! A lot of the pundits here disagree with various of Joe's opinions and rationales so would give him only an 8.5 here, but that isn't chicken feed coming from this critic. smile.gif

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post #3 of 22 Old 10-29-2013, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Mark, thanks so much for your kind words! I wish that discussion on the Mike Heiss podcast thread were here instead, but I couldn't post this one until I got the home-page graphic, which was late this week.

 

BTW, for those who want to check out that other thread, it's here. But I hope future comments about Joe's comments are posted here, where they belong.


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post #4 of 22 Old 10-29-2013, 08:55 PM
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Thank you Scott for another fantastic Podcast.

Hhhhmmm, UUHD. Maybe we will get Manufactures introducing small advances on a regular time basis. So will have to upgrade regularly. rolleyes.gif
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post #5 of 22 Old 10-30-2013, 09:01 AM
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Does anyone here have any sense for what the obstacles are to implementation of these sorts or enhancements? I understand the light source limits the color gamut, and there are bandwidth limitations on various delivery methods - are there serious obstacles to 10 or 12 bit color encoding and rendering?

Does 10 bit or 12 bit video pose a serious challenge to any mass market CE manufacturers? Would pricing be much different? It seems that most AVRs advertise 10 bit video processing, so I can't imagine it would be too hard to add support to displays and players. That makes me think that the BD alliance and the disc production studios are the major obstacle to better color - 422 or 444 at 10 or 12 bits. If the content is produced with those encodes, why not let us have it? It looks to me like DCI standards are reachable with common equipment, and the improvement there is real.

I suppose the hold up is the corner office concern that we won't go to the theater if we can get all that at home. If so, that's awfully discouraging. I can imagine movie studio executives making that argument, but maybe broadcast is different. Do you think FOX or Showtime would hold back the best picture quality on purpose, or has ATSC and broadcast bandwidth limitations forced them into 8 bit 420 encoding?

The other option, I guess, is that the only obstacle is the absence of a widely adopted standard. That would be nice, if this were just an organizational challenge.
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post #6 of 22 Old 10-30-2013, 10:35 AM
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probably bandwidth from capture chain all the way through replication chain.

but i really really hope that they go for XYZ for everything. why not go the for maximum amount of information captured and allow display technology to catch up to what content is encoded/stored in?biggrin.gif

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post #7 of 22 Old 10-30-2013, 06:05 PM
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I had just thought about something here - has anyone done a comparison of 1080p played on a 1080p TV (plasma, lcd etc) and one of these new UHD type units? I would be curious to know if the match, exceed or diminish the movie image. Seems that this should be a major consideration for anyone wanting to step into the unknown of UHD.

Perhaps a contrast and compare of top LCD, plasma and UHD with samples of a good and a mediocre DVD and Blu Ray disc (as well as streaming from say Vudu HDX) would make for a good bit of information to help inform us of a plus or minus.

HINT HINT HINT Scott.
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post #8 of 22 Old 10-30-2013, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrehdd View Post

I had just thought about something here - has anyone done a comparison of 1080p played on a 1080p TV (plasma, lcd etc) and one of these new UHD type units? I would be curious to know if the match, exceed or diminish the movie image. Seems that this should be a major consideration for anyone wanting to step into the unknown of UHD.

Perhaps a contrast and compare of top LCD, plasma and UHD with samples of a good and a mediocre DVD and Blu Ray disc (as well as streaming from say Vudu HDX) would make for a good bit of information to help inform us of a plus or minus.

HINT HINT HINT Scott.


Good idea! Actually, Consumer Reports did just that, which you can read about here.


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post #9 of 22 Old 10-30-2013, 07:42 PM
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It is the BD allience. If you look to see who is on that panel it's Samsung, sony, panasonic etc. They have the control and say. Just increase the bandwith requirements it can be done. Now there is another hiccup in all of this nonsense . I find it funny that once again we are taking stuff from legacy, cie 1931, analog crt. Let's move on leave the past behind us instead of allways dragging the legacy stuff along . BD allience should adopt 2160p 10bit at 444 as a minimum and then leave options. I like Joe Kane's idea to unify the benifits of UHD to 1080P. The content creators have the means , they have 10bit already at 444 according to Joe Kane he even uses it. It's in the hands of BD allience to finalise a standard and new disk player. Lot's of thoughts going on up in my head , lol.
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post #10 of 22 Old 10-31-2013, 09:24 AM
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Joe talks at cross purposes and forgets he is addressing multiple audiences. He is trying to sell the industry on the concept that for 4K to catch on so they can compete with each other in the 4K display market and lower prices until they all go bankrupt, they need to offer consumers more than increased resolution which most couldn't use anyway because of screen sizes and viewing distances. They need to offer a wider color gamut, longer bit length, and less compressed chroma sub sampling. If they do that, 4k will sell like hot cakes. Then without thinking of the implications because he is a video nerd he says they should give all that to the 1080p and 720p display owners too, DUH DUH JOE. If you get all the good stuff at 720 and 1080, then nobody will buy 4K because they can't benefit from the increased resolution and they get all the new good stuff anyway with lower resolution panels. Brilliant my boy. Brilliant.

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post #11 of 22 Old 10-31-2013, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Joe talks at cross purposes and forgets he is addressing multiple audiences. He is trying to sell the industry on the concept that for 4K to catch on so they can compete with each other in the 4K display market and lower prices until they all go bankrupt, they need to offer consumers more than increased resolution which most couldn't use anyway because of screen sizes and viewing distances. They need to offer a wider color gamut, longer bit length, and less compressed chroma sub sampling. If they do that, 4k will sell like hot cakes. Then without thinking of the implications because he is a video nerd he says they should give all that to the 1080p and 720p display owners too, DUH DUH JOE. If you get all the good stuff at 720 and 1080, then nobody will buy 4K because they can't benefit from the increased resolution and they get all the new good stuff anyway with lower resolution panels. Brilliant my boy. Brilliant.

^^ I can't speak for Joe, but I believe his point is, that in order for the industry to move forward, there has to be something more than just the 4K resolution......Like Joe & you an mentioned, the wider color gamut, longer bit length, and less compressed chroma sub sampling are all necessary "features" for these new tv's to appeal to the larger market. I am sure you have seen 4K upclose and personal, I know I have, and I am not all that impressed at the 55" size sets. They look good but not the WOW factor we had when going from SD to HD.
I agree that in order to make this evolution viable, the industry needs to broaden their "features" ie make all new TV sets 4K and finalize the spec ( 4K, 4:4:4, 10bit, 120Hz Rec-709 & Rec-2020, HDMI 2.X etc) so we can all move on to enjoying our content.

OH! right! content............

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post #12 of 22 Old 10-31-2013, 06:22 PM
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Joe is a video evangelist. He wants for us the best video possible. He really cares not for the industry. He is telling the industry that for 4K to be successful for them, it must be delivered with a wider color space than rec. 709, it must use a less compressed chroma sub sampling, and it must use longer bit lengths for a variety of reasons. He states that unless one sits on top of a panel or has a screen at least 10 ft wide and sits no further than 1.8 screen heights away, the resolution increase will be useless to the viewer. They won't be able to sell it in quantity unless 4K delivers the benefits of a wider color gamut, better chroma sampling, and longer bits. Good argument. But then he states they ought to give to those to everyone buying lower resolution products as well. But if you can't benefit from 4K, and all resolution sets will have those non resolution benefits, then why buy a 4K set. His arguments to the industry thus don't hold water. He wants better video and that argument has nothing to do with ensuring success of the 4K format for manufacturers.

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post #13 of 22 Old 10-31-2013, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

He wants better video and that argument has nothing to do with ensuring success of the 4K format for manufacturers.
That's true - full stop.

If manufacturers are interested in gaining and retaining market share as well as driving sales, they will find ways to market their products. I think Joe just hopes that they market their products based on real value-added features, not (just) increased resolution. That's my hope too.

Working with Joe's terminology, UHD (not 4K) should be marketed as the new "whole package' of image improvements - much as the Blu-ray demos on loops at stores have always touted the improvements in both picture and sound, UHD is the name for the whole new standard. I think that is marketable. And while it will probably sell better in sets with *all* of the UHD features, including increased resolution, I would personally still buy 1080p or even 720p sets where available and appropriate, given size and distance requirements.
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post #14 of 22 Old 10-31-2013, 06:58 PM
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I don't disagree but I think the extra goodies should only be given to the UHD sets. If they are given to all sets regardless of the resolution, there will be no reason for most to buy a set that then would provide only the benefit of higher resolution.

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post #15 of 22 Old 10-31-2013, 07:03 PM
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So you're saying people would buy 4K without expanded gamut or HFR or greater bit depth instead of 1080p with those features?

I'm not sure I'm reading you right.
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post #16 of 22 Old 10-31-2013, 07:10 PM
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I will try once more. To sell 4K, there has to be extra goodies because most people will not benefit from the increased resolution alone. BUY 4K BECAUSE YOU GET EXTRA GOODIES AND 4K RESOLUTION IF YOU CAN USE IT. If lower than 4K resolution sets also have all the extra 4K goodies, why buy 4K if you cannot benefit from the extra resolution that goes along with those goodies.

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post #17 of 22 Old 10-31-2013, 07:19 PM
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Indeed - why by 4K if you don't need it? If you can get the UHD picture improvements without paying for the increased resolution, I think that would be great. I understand that manufacturers would love to sell the 4K sets instead of 1080p because of the price premium - but I think that's not actually the proposition. The proposition under the current paradigm is buy a 4K set you don't benefit from, or buy nothing, since you have a 1080p set that's only a few years old. (obviously, those needing to add extra sets or replace broken sets are facing a slightly different proposition.)

By offering UHD that improves picture quality at all price points and sizes, manufacturers can drive upgrade purchasing instead of replacement purchasing (if those terms make sense) - keeping the life-cycle/replacement-cycle short, as is to their liking.
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post #18 of 22 Old 11-01-2013, 10:27 AM
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From the point of view of a consumer, I see the benefit of getting 1080p panels with the increased color gamuts and so on, which some enterprising company will probably build anyway (since I'm pretty sure 4K sets with HDMI 2.0 would probably still support lower resolutions but with those other goodies in there), so it should be possible.

Realistically, I do think it's better for it to be exclusive to 4K, at least for a while, to give a value-added proposition in upgrading. Let the market decide though, I mean, it's worked pretty well to lower prices for 1080p sets and other electronics products (in many areas, price fixing scandals notwithstanding). Why cannibalize your own sales of the higher end 4K sets by making your own 1080p ones almost as good? It doesn't make sense. If anything, the other areas of this UHD tech could be enough to help bring people to the next gen of display quality. And with pico projectors, laser projectors, printable OLED roll up screens, I bet you 4K will be useful in a lot more households than one might realize.

From the point of view of a company, I would just sell 4K with the new goodies, and 1080p stuff with those other color gamut improvements added in only later on, once the price differential would make people go towards the higher margin 4K tech, because hey, let's face it, the market has spoken : they buy inferior tech with lower contrast ratios because it's brighter, not because it gives a better image.
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post #19 of 22 Old 11-01-2013, 03:40 PM
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BD Allience should finalise a disk format and make 2160P 709 and 2020 10bit 444 as the standard. Content apparently is on the back burners according to Joe. Just do it already :rolleyes.gif at the BDA.
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post #20 of 22 Old 11-02-2013, 09:25 PM
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They will keep any PQ improvements for the new 4k sets to TRY to help spur sales.

Right now as people find out just how little difference the resolution will make and

the total lack of content there is NO reason whatsoever to upgrade.

So manufactures will dangle the goodies in front of us................

There have been many tech advances that could have been applied to current

products but why do that when you want to SELL the high end stuff.
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post #21 of 22 Old 11-04-2013, 05:24 PM
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After watching (part of) the video, he makes a good point about it being harder to convince studios and standardization committees to agree to this stuff, and produce content in it for mass consumption, however that's delivered, than to convince end users to buy it.

I'm on board with better quality 1080p content and displays and supporting electronics. A rising tide lifts all ships, including the flagship (4K). Let's face it, 4K will defeat 1080p, if only because eventually costs will come down enough to do it, regardless of whether it's an actual benefit for casual screen sizes and viewing distances.

For projectors, I can't wait! And OLED screens, will make that HDR color really pop.
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post #22 of 22 Old 11-13-2013, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

BD Allience should finalise a disk format and make 2160P 709 and 2020 10bit 444 as the standard. Content apparently is on the back burners according to Joe. Just do it already :rolleyes.gif at the BDA.

 

YIKES!  2160p/10bit/4:4:4 is a CRAPLOAD of data!


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