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post #1 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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CE Week 2014



Scott Wilkinson roams the show floor at CE Week 2014 to see what's new from some of the exhibiting companies. Of particular interest is the introduction of Dolby Atmos in home products from Onkyo and Pioneer; high-resolution audio from Sharp, Sony, and WiSA; the HEOS wireless whole-home audio system from Denon; WebOS Smart TV from LG; inexpensive UHDTVs, soundbar, and upconverting Blu-ray player from Seiki; and remote access to your TV system from TiVo, Dish, and Simple.TV.

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post #2 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 10:05 AM
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Nice video
That Panamax guy HAS to cut down on the caffeine .
Scott, during the Pioneer section when he is talking about ATMOS content he says that there are 100 titles released in ATMOS already. He said that the same exact soundtrack is what they would put onto a BR disk. So I already have movies like THOR: The Dark World, Elysium and The Wolverine as just examples on BR. Does that mean that there is already an ATMOS track on those disks buried somewhere? I mean, right now I think all those disks only show a DTS-MA soundtrack as the audio choice. If you bought at ATMOS preamp or AVR, would it automatically sense an ATMOS signal?
He also said that it would be a 9 channel system? If you look up THOR TDW for example on the site Blu-Ray Statistics
http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php
(which is great btw), it says it has a 7.1 soundtrack, not a 9 channel sound track. These are just questions I have rolling in my head.

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post #3 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 10:24 AM
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there is no BD with Atmos out yet and there is no way they will fit 64 channel on one BD it's simply not possible...
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post #4 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
there is no BD with Atmos out yet and there is no way they will fit 64 channel on one BD it's simply not possible...
That's what I thought but I wanted to make sure. I wonder why he was saying that then. Unless I misunderstood him, which is %100 possible. But I have heard that they can put the audio on a standard BR. I think some people even mentioned it on this forum. So does that mean that they are wrong?

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post #5 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 10:47 AM
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time will tell but 64 channel is not going to happen even with 192 kbit per channel we get over 12 mbit. thats possible but this is not going to happen.
but to correct my self you can't put 64 lossless channel on a disc
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post #6 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 10:56 AM
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Great coverage, Scott. I wish I was as enthusiastic as you always seem to be

Something really disappointing: the guy from Pioneer, talking about receivers and Atmos, shows that he does not understand Atmos (he talks about 64 and 32 channel mixes that will be mixed down to the number of speakers of the receiver - from 33.30 onwards). I don't want to pick on him, but maybe this proves that the whole concept is really too complicated for consumers.
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post #7 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 11:09 AM
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I know I am not being picked on , but I don't mind if I don't understand either. Again, that's what it sounded like to me. Maybe it is to complicated for a consumer "like me" but I am sure there are other people here who are "consumers" who fully grasp the concept. Honestly, for me it's academic since I only have a 5.1 setup and even doing a 5.1.2 setup would be hard for me to do. I was just wondering that's all. But he does seem to say that ATMOS is already on some BR movies that were mixed and played in ATMOS theaters right?

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post #8 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post
I know I am not being picked on , but I don't mind if I don't understand either. Again, that's what it sounded like to me. Maybe it is to complicated for a consumer "like me" but I am sure there are other people here who are "consumers" who fully grasp the concept. Honestly, for me it's academic since I only have a 5.1 setup and even doing a 5.1.2 setup would be hard for me to do. I was just wondering that's all. But he does seem to say that ATMOS is already on some BR movies that were mixed and played in ATMOS theaters right?
Obviously not!

But maybe it would be interesting to create a thread to explain Atmos, because it is a very smart and simple concept. In fact, let me try!
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post #9 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 12:35 PM
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Here is my attempt to explain Dolby Atmos

Atmos: who can provide the simplest explanation?

(please go easy on me )
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post #10 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post
Scott, during the Pioneer section when he is talking about ATMOS content he says that there are 100 titles released in ATMOS already. He said that the same exact soundtrack is what they would put onto a BR disk.
If you rewatch that part of the video you will notice that the guy catches his mistake and clarifies that the 100 titles that have Atmos soundtracks are Cinema releases (i.e. that they are not on Blu-Ray yet) but that they will be coming to Blu-Ray, streaming, etc. As far as it being the exact same soundtrack on Blu-Ray as it is in the theater, I doubt it. That would be awesome, but I suspect that the version put on current Blu-Ray discs will have to be downmixed to something more manageable before it is encoded.
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post #11 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
As far as it being the exact same soundtrack on Blu-Ray as it is in the theater, I doubt it. That would be awesome, but I suspect that the version put on current Blu-Ray discs will have to be downmixed to something more manageable before it is encoded.
There will be no need to downmix, because the mix does not exist (except for the 5.1 or 7.1 or possibly 9.1 sound bed). The mix is created on the fly by the decoder.
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post #12 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
If you rewatch that part of the video you will notice that the guy catches his mistake and clarifies that the 100 titles that have Atmos soundtracks are Cinema releases (i.e. that they are not on Blu-Ray yet) but that they will be coming to Blu-Ray, streaming, etc. As far as it being the exact same soundtrack on Blu-Ray as it is in the theater, I doubt it. That would be awesome, but I suspect that the version put on current Blu-Ray discs will have to be downmixed to something more manageable before it is encoded.
You are exactly correct; Chris Walker did clarify what he meant—that there are over 100 movies with Dolby Atmos soundtracks that have been released commercially, not on Blu-ray. From what I learned, that will start happening this fall. If you already have certain titles that are re-released with Atmos, you'll have to buy them again. (T'was ever thus...)

As for including Atmos on current Blu-rays, that's totally possible, because the audio objects that move around the 3D soundfield are not encoded in channels, so there are not 64 or 32 channels of audio on the disc. Instead, the data for the audio objects is decoded by an Atmos-enabled AVR or pre/pro (which have been announced by Pioneer, Onkyo, and Integra so far), and those data don't take up all that much space on the disc. The new channel designation of, say, 5.1.4, indicates that, in addition to a 5.1 bed, there are four speakers available to Atmos for overhead effects, not that there are four extra channels in the audio data.

Aside from object-oriented 3D audio, Atmos is all about scalability; it adapts to whatever the system resources are. I suspect that the home version might be somewhat different from the commercial version, but only in some tech details, not in principle or in operation. I eagerly await its availability in the home; the demos I heard at CE Week were most impressive.
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post #13 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by antoniobiz1 View Post
There will be no need to downmix, because the mix does not exist (except for the 5.1 or 7.1 or possibly 9.1 sound bed). The mix is created on the fly by the decoder.
That's what I was thinking as I read the above posts. It's basically like a vector-based sound mix, as opposed to a "bitmap" (a bit of an analogy there...) like current fixed channels, right? The quality and flexibility should go way up, as does the processing power requirements.
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post #14 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
there is no BD with Atmos out yet and there is no way they will fit 64 channel on one BD it's simply not possible...
That's one of the crucial points with atmos.
Its not channel based, so instead having a voice in left, right and center with differences in volume thus panning between them it needs to be represented in all channel individual audio track.

With atmos you only need a single 'file' or track with sound accompanied with metadata in x,y,z, volume and possibly a few others I can't think of at the moment.
The actual channel mix doesn't exist until after decoding by a processor and it has rendered it for its connected system regardless of how many speakers are connected to it.

First thing is this would be much easier to compress and transport, in other words an atmos track shouldn't take much more storage space than a 7.1 mix if not less.

The primary reason why they are pushing so hard on atmos isn't necessarily the improvement in our own audio immersion but labor and technical savings, no more need to do separate dolby trueHd or dts master masters for disc media, and the one audio track being supplied would work even you only have a stereo setup or a 32 channel home cinema.

Now I am probably wrong about most of this
But just went for it anywyas.
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post #15 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniobiz1 View Post
Great coverage, Scott. I wish I was as enthusiastic as you always seem to be

Something really disappointing: the guy from Pioneer, talking about receivers and Atmos, shows that he does not understand Atmos (he talks about 64 and 32 channel mixes that will be mixed down to the number of speakers of the receiver - from 33.30 onwards). I don't want to pick on him, but maybe this proves that the whole concept is really too complicated for consumers.
Part of his job is to be enthusiastic. For an OG, he can take the mound every day and pitch a stellar couple of innings.

I am still waiting for a suicide, it was a really dull show, not much new or exiting, and you are right, an interviewee was blowing smoke out of his posterior. Scott for the most part has become a very effective reporter and interviewer, he asks the right questions but is always respectful of his interviewees and of us.

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post #16 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 05:16 PM
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Onkyo rep didnt mention the S9700 HTiB that will have ATMOS as well...

Panamax product doesnt sound practical... it turns off the outlets until the power is good??? I would rather get battery backups (UPS) and use those instead and those have come down a lot in price...

Sharp Bluray Player - at that price point... no thank you...

Netgear next gen night hawk is pretty nice but I will wait for a few firmware updates to hit and work out any bugs, I have been pretty happy with my ASUS Dark Knight N66U Router. ^_^

B&O TV is interesting but those speakers in the background are amazing looking.

Sony... No comment... I was hoping they would mention something about their projectors...

Sharp UHD TV really have stepped up their game.

Pioneer front speakers with the built in angled speaker for reflecting sound off of the ceiling reminds me of LG 3D surround sound kit that all their speakers had a top speaker aimed at the ceiling to give you an artificial 3D feel.

Seiki, well you get what you paid for but its a hell of a value and a $99 4k up-scaling bluray player is cheap enough to give it a shot

Denon - No comment

Westinghouse, I like the idea of having 4 different 1080 streams but I would probably go no smaller then 60" for such a setup.

LG - No comment / No Interest

WISA - all these wireless frequencies, Radio frequencies, Digital, Analog, and so on and so on, I wonder how this effects US and everything else around it and how it effects our electronics compared to wired options...

TIVO - No Comment / No Interest

DISH - No Comment / Cutting the cord or ummm Sat Feed lol...

Simple.TV so its like slingbox with a few more features and at $199 thats not to bad... I will have to look into it more.



Well I was hoping for more demos to be filmed but overall this was very informative, is there not much love any more for projectors? was any company there showing off any of that tech?

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post #17 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 06:50 PM
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Manufacturers traditionally do noy use this show to demo or introduce projectors. They use Cedia partially because that is consistent with there overseas and US new model years and even then they except for Sony need a few months after Cedia before production models start to ship.
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post #18 of 25 Old 06-27-2014, 11:20 PM
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Good video fairly comprehensive interviews.
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post #19 of 25 Old 06-28-2014, 04:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
there is no BD with Atmos out yet and there is no way they will fit 64 channel on one BD it's simply not possible...
sure ain't
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post #20 of 25 Old 06-28-2014, 06:41 AM
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Considering a very long movie is 180 minutes it would appear there is plenty of room on a single layer BD (25GB / 4 hour HD video) to fit whatever additional optional audio track is desired regardless of its complexity.
Retailers will balk at adding an even lower volume product to the shelf that would simply add more confusion to consumers.
There is already multiple BD options and the vast majority of the buyers have the BD player connected directly to the TV.
If Atmos is going to get a foothold on BD it has to be an additional optional soundtrack added to the BD that could be utilized if a BD player or processor is capable of decoding the codec.


http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#bluray_capacity_data
Q) How much data can you fit on a Blu-ray disc?
A) single-layer disc can hold 25GB.
A) dual-layer disc can hold 50GB.
To ensure that the Blu-ray Disc format is easily extendable (future-proof) it also includes support for multi-layer discs, which should allow the storage capacity to be increased to 100GB-200GB (25GB per layer) in the future simply by adding more layers to the discs.

Q) How much video can you fit on a Blu-ray disc?
A) Over 9 hours of high-definition (HD) video on a 50GB disc.
A) About 23 hours of standard-definition (SD) video on a 50GB disc.


Q) What audio codecs will Blu-ray support?
A) Linear PCM (LPCM) - up to 8 channels of uncompressed audio. (mandatory)
Dolby Digital (DD) - format used for DVDs, 5.1-channel surround sound. (mandatory)
Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) - extension of Dolby Digital, 7.1-channel surround sound. (optional)
Dolby TrueHD - lossless encoding of up to 8 channels of audio. (optional)
DTS Digital Surround - format used for DVDs, 5.1-channel surround sound. (mandatory)
DTS-HD High Resolution Audio - extension of DTS, 7.1-channel surround sound. (optional)
DTS-HD Master Audio - lossless encoding of up to 8 channels of audio. (optional)
Please note that this simply means that Blu-ray players and recorders will have to support playback of these audio codecs, it will still be up to the movie studios to decide which audio codec(s) they use for their releases.

Regards,
Charlie

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post #21 of 25 Old 06-28-2014, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by chashint View Post
Q) How much video can you fit on a Blu-ray disc?
A) Over 9 hours of high-definition (HD) video on a 50GB disc.
if you think youtube has good video quality then yeah you can put over 9 H of video on a BD.
you can use up to 40 mbit for a 2d video stream and this is used too!
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post #22 of 25 Old 06-28-2014, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
If you rewatch that part of the video you will notice that the guy catches his mistake and clarifies that the 100 titles that have Atmos soundtracks are Cinema releases (i.e. that they are not on Blu-Ray yet) but that they will be coming to Blu-Ray, streaming, etc. As far as it being the exact same soundtrack on Blu-Ray as it is in the theater, I doubt it. That would be awesome, but I suspect that the version put on current Blu-Ray discs will have to be downmixed to something more manageable before it is encoded.
I knew there was something I missed. Scott's post bellow is also a good one as well. Thanks for the answers

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post #23 of 25 Old 06-30-2014, 03:53 PM
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Netgear next gen night hawk is pretty nice but I will wait for a few firmware updates to hit and work out any bugs, I have been pretty happy with my ASUS Dark Knight N66U Router. ^_^
Agreed. I love ASUS, I'm sticking with ASUS myself. Too many bad experiences with Netgear and D-Link, and Linksys only has that one crazy expensive router that's even worth looking at. They have declined a lot since the days of the WRT-54G (which my parents are still using to this day with Tomato).

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Simple.TV so its like slingbox with a few more features and at $199 thats not to bad... I will have to look into it more.
No. It's not a Slingbox. It's a full DVR system, plus a Slingbox-like functionality for the DVR all in one box, but it's only for OTA, so it's a niche market device. From what I've read, Tablo is a much better DVR. Niche, but still really neat devices for that niche.

Quote:
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Considering a very long movie is 180 minutes it would appear there is plenty of room on a single layer BD (25GB / 4 hour HD video) to fit whatever additional optional audio track is desired regardless of its complexity.
Retailers will balk at adding an even lower volume product to the shelf that would simply add more confusion to consumers.
There is already multiple BD options and the vast majority of the buyers have the BD player connected directly to the TV.
If Atmos is going to get a foothold on BD it has to be an additional optional soundtrack added to the BD that could be utilized if a BD player or processor is capable of decoding the codec.
They aren't additional SKUs, as they have to be backwards compatible. Even people with Atmos systems may want to play their discs elsewhere... The movies that have Atmos available will get new versions of the Blu-rays that will replace the old ones, and will feature Atmos. They'll probably get sneaky, and only put Atmos on the combo packs/ extended editions/ etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
if you think youtube has good video quality then yeah you can put over 9 H of video on a BD.
you can use up to 40 mbit for a 2d video stream and this is used too!
If you use VUDU's encoding, you can get over 12 hours of Blu-ray quality video on a Blu-ray disc, just not at normal Blu-ray bitrates. You could get just shy of 7 hours of Netflix 4k on a Blu-ray disc...
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post #24 of 25 Old 07-01-2014, 03:11 AM
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If you use VUDU's encoding, you can get over 12 hours of Blu-ray quality video on a Blu-ray disc, just not at normal Blu-ray bitrates. You could get just shy of 7 hours of Netflix 4k on a Blu-ray disc...
VUDU uses something like pathetic ~3 mbit for FHD
if i trust this source: http://hometheaterreview.com/vudu/

and it doesn't matter if this is very high quality h264 encode this is low quality. the removed grain and the banding must be terrible...
a BD has usually more than 18 mbit and 40 mbit are used too.
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post #25 of 25 Old 07-01-2014, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
VUDU uses something like pathetic ~3 mbit for FHD
if i trust this source: http://hometheaterreview.com/vudu/

and it doesn't matter if this is very high quality h264 encode this is low quality. the removed grain and the banding must be terrible...
a BD has usually more than 18 mbit and 40 mbit are used too.
It's about 9-10mbps for HDX. There's arguments all over the place on here, but the bottom line is that unless you have a giant screen, it's visually equivalent to Blu-ray, due to some tricks they do with the encoding.
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