Discs Ain't Dead Yet - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 08-10-2014, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Discs Ain't Dead Yet



Rob Aubey, manager of software engineering at Sony Creative Software, and Mark Waldrep, founder and chief engineer of AIX Records, talk about Pure Audio Blu-rays, which provide entire albums in high-resolution audio with virtually no video content at all. Over 240 titles are currently available, and they work just like CDs in any Blu-ray player without requiring a video monitor. Rob and Mark also discuss physical media versus online delivery of high-res audio, copy protection, answers to chat-room questions, and more.


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post #2 of 30 Old 08-10-2014, 07:47 PM
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who said they were dead in the first place

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post #3 of 30 Old 08-10-2014, 08:43 PM
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who said they were dead in the first place
1) People who want to be cool and keep up with the newest thing or join the bandwagon (i.e. streaming).

2) People who don't want to drive somewhere and rent/buy a disc.

3) People who are impatient.

4) People who don't care that they're paying a 200% premium over a renting a disc.
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post #4 of 30 Old 08-11-2014, 07:57 AM
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A couple of points I noted. First off, I don't find that discs are more convenient in that you have to either buy them in a store and bring them home or buy them on line and wait till they arrive. With high rez downloads, I can purchanse them and play them in an hour. A minor point to be sure. The other with Pure Music is that the provenance issue remains. What generation are the masters? How are they transferred, using what equipment? That issue was not adequately addressed by Mr. Aubey. I feel that Pure Music will be a niche format at best. However, it is something I will look into further. I have seen the discs at retail in Europe. I may have to grab one next time.
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post #5 of 30 Old 08-11-2014, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Rob and Mark also discuss physical media versus online delivery of high-res audio, copy protection, answers to chat-room questions, and more.
I think I watch this later. I'm currently in a good mood but the topic copy protection can easily change this.

got a new disk put it in my BD rom in my PC started PowerDVD 7 and get the message please update PowerDVD to play this disk for just ~80 euro sounds fair.

or the gemran avatar version which blocked power dvd completly because it labled it as a illegal disc.

this copy protection only hurt people who pay for it. so working as intended?
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post #6 of 30 Old 08-11-2014, 08:13 AM
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I have yet to see streaming that is worth it. A movie costs far more, it is subject to failure, and for me most important-no loss less audio. A 2 minute trip to the redbox will be less money-(far less) and I get fresh air, meet folks, and I get to enjoy my expensive AVR.
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post #7 of 30 Old 08-11-2014, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post

Rob Aubey, manager of software engineering at Sony Creative Software, and Mark Waldrep, founder and chief engineer of AIX Records, talk about Pure Audio Blu-rays, which provide entire albums in high-resolution audio with virtually no video content at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWDFrXSjauU

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Great episode, Scott.

You were a skilled moderator. It was fun to listen to the sales guy and the engineer/owner dance around each other and attempt to make their points whilst trying not to say anything too contrary to the other. I have to say that of the two, Waldrep certainly presented a better product, although I don't have much use for video when I'm specifically listening to music.

Sony is very optimistic to think they can make this fly. I have no doubt the sound quality is far superior to anything 90% of the "End Users" own and call music. I also have no doubt that it will never pass niche status as a media option; I haven't seen statistics, but I'd guess that 75%-85% of Blu-Ray players are hooked up exclusively to TV speakers.

It's sad and I hate to say it, but portability is just about vital for a sound format to succeed today(Vinyl notwithstanding, but the reasons vinyl use is growing are not the same reasons Pure Audio would succeed)
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post #8 of 30 Old 08-11-2014, 09:44 AM
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Streaming audio needs to get better. until then i'll stick to disks with lossless audio
i don't mind waiting for 2 days to ship the disk.
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post #9 of 30 Old 08-11-2014, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Utopianemo View Post
Great episode, Scott.

You were a skilled moderator. It was fun to listen to the sales guy and the engineer/owner dance around each other and attempt to make their points whilst trying not to say anything too contrary to the other. I have to say that of the two, Waldrep certainly presented a better product, although I don't have much use for video when I'm specifically listening to music.

Sony is very optimistic to think they can make this fly. I have no doubt the sound quality is far superior to anything 90% of the "End Users" own and call music. I also have no doubt that it will never pass niche status as a media option; I haven't seen statistics, but I'd guess that 75%-85% of Blu-Ray players are hooked up exclusively to TV speakers.

It's sad and I hate to say it, but portability is just about vital for a sound format to succeed today(Vinyl notwithstanding, but the reasons vinyl use is growing are not the same reasons Pure Audio would succeed)
I absolutely agree with your statement,the majority of people listen to music on their portable devices through headphones, via digital downloads or streams.It's hard to see a mainstream market for hi res audio disks.
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post #10 of 30 Old 08-11-2014, 10:21 AM
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I am also grateful for the small amount of time dedicated to talking about purchasing whole albums as opposed to singles. I think even worse than introducing Low-quality audio to the masses, the most egregious thing about itunes is that it made buying singles the norm. Maybe it was what the general public wanted, but it's had a negative effect on the industry as a whole.

I do buy more singles than I used to, but most often, a good song still makes me want to hear the rest of the album. I like the fact that the pure audio model assumes the LP as the normative format for releases.
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post #11 of 30 Old 08-11-2014, 10:43 AM
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Scott. Your interviewing skills on this one match anything David Frost ever did. Of course, in those days it wasn't a missing disc but an erasure on a tape.

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post #12 of 30 Old 08-11-2014, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Utopianemo View Post
I am also grateful for the small amount of time dedicated to talking about purchasing whole albums as opposed to singles. I think even worse than introducing Low-quality audio to the masses, the most egregious thing about itunes is that it made buying singles the norm. Maybe it was what the general public wanted, but it's had a negative effect on the industry as a whole.

I do buy more singles than I used to, but most often, a good song still makes me want to hear the rest of the album. I like the fact that the pure audio model assumes the LP as the normative format for releases.

Nothing wrong with singles. I bought plenty of 45's as a kid in the 60's. I can't believe it but I still have them in one of the old leather covered 45 boxes. Even in the 60's, for every great album there were many more that had one or maybe 2 good songs on it with the rest being filler. That is what singles were for. Just as bad today frankly.
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post #13 of 30 Old 08-11-2014, 12:34 PM
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Pure Audio: Not exactly earth shattering

The "pure audio" technology has been around for a few years because of Blu-ray. Unless there is something unique about the Blu-ray "pure audio" disc version, it is hardly worth the $20 to $30 or even more per disc, when the normal CD or even the SACD version sounds exactly the same to my ears as the Blu-ray disc, especially in 2 channel mixes; e.g., Getz/Gilberto album that ignited the Bossa Nova craze. The cost for consumers has to come down drastically if there is any hope for music only Blu-rays to be economically viable. At the very least, the content should be unique and exploit the up to 50GB capacity of Blu-ray discs and offer full menus versus the generic: track 1, track 2........ A great bargain today are live concerts on Blu-ray that can have exceptional video as well as audio content.
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post #14 of 30 Old 08-11-2014, 12:48 PM
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Nothing wrong with singles. I bought plenty of 45's as a kid in the 60's. I can't believe it but I still have them in one of the old leather covered 45 boxes. Even in the 60's, for every great album there were many more that had one or maybe 2 good songs on it with the rest being filler. That is what singles were for. Just as bad today frankly.
Yeah, I guess I agree.....probably even worse in the 60's. From my admittedly limited perspective, it seems concept albums, or even pop albums with a strong thematic thread didn't really start to flourish until the later part of the 60's and beyond.

I'm in the minority I suppose, but I've always treasured the entire album as opposed to singles. Don't get me wrong, I have a decent number of singles purchases on itunes or Amazon. But as a whole, I'd guess about 95% of my music is comprised of full albums.
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post #15 of 30 Old 08-11-2014, 03:51 PM
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Good program, Scott. Enjoyed it as well as your previous one with Joe Kane. Thanks.
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post #16 of 30 Old 08-11-2014, 07:00 PM
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who said they were dead in the first place
I feel same way don't matter CD or Blu-ray.
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post #17 of 30 Old 08-12-2014, 09:30 AM
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I would pay money to see a 2 hour long MARK WALDREP vs MICHAEL FREMER home theater geeks show..
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post #18 of 30 Old 08-12-2014, 06:35 PM
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A couple of points I noted. First off, I don't find that discs are more convenient in that you have to either buy them in a store and bring them home or buy them on line and wait till they arrive. With high rez downloads, I can purchanse them and play them in an hour.

You must have a much faster internet connection that I do. First, high rez downloads? What is that? I find anything over the internet to be highly compressed. Take a BluRay disk, the movie only after taken bit by bit of the disk is about 30gb (some are more compressed or shorter time for smaller size) That movie streamed is 34megabit per second. I find not server can sustain that speed for a large number of people which is why it is highly compressed.

But lets say you can download a 30 bluray disk in all its glory. My bandwidth is 40mbit. I would be luck to get 20mbit transfer speed.

According to this site http://techinternets.com/copy_calc?do

That is 3 hours 45mins. I could drive down to redbox 16 times and rent 16 movies.

A minor point to be sure. The other with Pure Music is that the provenance issue remains. What generation are the masters? How are they transferred, using what equipment? That issue was not adequately addressed by Mr. Aubey. I feel that Pure Music will be a niche format at best. However, it is something I will look into further. I have seen the discs at retail in Europe. I may have to grab one next time.
The biggest issue is video quality. I have a 1080p projector and you can see all sorts of jpg or mpeg compression, color banding, etc on streams or even compressed 1080p bluray movies.

That alone is worth the drive.

What about 4k movies, if the are 60-100gbyte, how long with that take to download and you know streaming will fall far short. (I am assuming that 4k video will use a multi layer bluray for it's movies.)

But the masses may not care. Some people I know cannot tell the difference or care enough about the difference to get a bluray player.

Another thing. In the US. The average internet speed is 10mbits per second. Almost an 8hour download for a 30gbyte bluray download.
http://www.cnet.com/news/what-us-sta...peed-virginia/
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post #19 of 30 Old 08-12-2014, 07:01 PM
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<p>
Quote:
Originally Posted by quad4.0 View Post
I have yet to see streaming that is worth it. A movie costs far more, it is subject to failure, and for me most important-no loss less audio. A 2 minute trip to the redbox will be less money-(far less) and I get fresh air, meet folks, and I get to enjoy my expensive AVR.
</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Yep. Streaming is okay in a pinch, but I'm not sold on the PQ. I'd just as soon go to Redbox. </p><p>&nbsp;</p>

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a...
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post #20 of 30 Old 08-12-2014, 07:12 PM
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The biggest issue is video quality. I have a 1080p projector and you can see all sorts of jpg or mpeg compression, color banding, etc on streams or even compressed 1080p bluray movies.

That alone is worth the drive.

What about 4k movies, if the are 60-100gbyte, how long with that take to download and you know streaming will fall far short. (I am assuming that 4k video will use a multi layer bluray for it's movies.)

But the masses may not care. Some people I know cannot tell the difference or care enough about the difference to get a bluray player.

Another thing. In the US. The average internet speed is 10mbits per second. Almost an 8hour download for a 30gbyte bluray download.
http://www.cnet.com/news/what-us-sta...peed-virginia/
It's all about the quality of video. Whenever I happen to stream any movie from my Roku, it is never as good as the BD version. The Red Box I usually use (BD's @ $1.50) is inside my local Publix Supermarket where I also buy my Florida Lotto ticket. No problem driving the short distance to get there, especially if I'm already at the store buying my weekly groceries. Now, if Red Box would only start stocking BD 3D flicks, I'd be that much happier!
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post #21 of 30 Old 08-12-2014, 09:15 PM
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It's all about the quality of video. Whenever I happen to stream any movie from my Roku, it is never as good as the BD version. The Red Box I usually use (BD's @ $1.50) is inside my local Publix Supermarket where I also buy my Florida Lotto ticket. No problem driving the short distance to get there, especially if I'm already at the store buying my weekly groceries. Now, if Red Box would only start stocking BD 3D flicks, I'd be that much happier!
Unfortunately, Redbox is now 1.75 in my area $1.88 with tax. But hey, I just hope they can hang in there. They have had a turn down which caused stock to drop, but they blamed it on lack of new movies. Well it seems to look a lot better now and they are charging a little bit more.

I wish RedBox would do DB3D as well. But that market is niche and is not doing as expected, but we can hope
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post #22 of 30 Old 08-12-2014, 10:51 PM
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Unfortunately, Redbox is now 1.75 in my area $1.88 with tax. But hey, I just hope they can hang in there. They have had a turn down which caused stock to drop, but they blamed it on lack of new movies. Well it seems to look a lot better now and they are charging a little bit more.

I wish RedBox would do DB3D as well. But that market is niche and is not doing as expected, but we can hope
Interesting how Red Box rentals vary by a few quarters in different areas of the country. Still, quite a bargain for a BD! I can easily recall frequenting my local Blockbuster, and spending at least twice that amount for a DVD, and the dollar was worth more then than now. Add that fact to the present day price of streaming an inferior compressed video on Vudu, etc. that's usually a good bit more than renting a high def BD at Red Box.

BTW, I've found that not all Red Box's are created equal. The outside locations at Walgreens, convenience stores, etc. are many times abused from my own experience. In fact, I renamed the Red Box to "Scratch Box" after so many bad discs. Some I could use a special cleaner and make them play, others I could not. This all changed when I started renting discs from an inside Red Box at my local Publix. The discs now appear barely used if at all, and I've not experienced any abused BD's.
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post #23 of 30 Old 08-13-2014, 07:06 AM
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The PQ with a projector really is a significant issue. If all my viewing was done on our 37" TV in the living room, this would be less of an issue. I am signed up with Netflix to have discs mailed to me - which requires little to no effort - and it's kind of fun filling up the queue with interesting titles to anticipate. You have to use it and keep the film cycle going to maximize the investment into the monthly fee, but one can hardly argue with the simplicity of the system. We also have a very nice video store in town that has a pretty deep library w/ a wall of Criterion releases, expansive foreign film selection, lots of interesting indie films, documentaries, etc. I cater to them as much as possible. They have a nice deal in which you can rent five discs (excluding new releases) for a week for $6.00, which I take advantage of quite often. I kind of enjoy going to the store, browsing the racks, looking at new releases, etc. - but I realize I am probably in the minority as far as that is concerned.


The limited selection at Redbox is pretty depressing and makes it of little interest to me . I am a bit of a film buff and, although I enjoy many of the mainstream releases and love digging into a good "popcorn flick", I spend more of my time in pursuit of cinema that falls well outside of the small slice of cinema at a Redbox kiosk.


It kind of depresses me to think that a time may come where compressed streaming is the only remaining option.
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post #24 of 30 Old 08-13-2014, 10:13 AM
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The PQ with a projector really is a significant issue. If all my viewing was done on our 37" TV in the living room, this would be less of an issue. I am signed up with Netflix to have discs mailed to me - which requires little to no effort - and it's kind of fun filling up the queue with interesting titles to anticipate.

I have this too. I rent older movies this way. But I also use redbox because title are available sooner and I like looking through what they have. It seems every Tues is when the put new titles in.

You have to use it and keep the film cycle going to maximize the investment into the monthly fee, but one can hardly argue with the simplicity of the system. We also have a very nice video store in town that has a pretty deep library w/ a wall of Criterion releases, expansive foreign film selection, lots of interesting indie films, documentaries, etc. I cater to them as much as possible.

I wish I had this option. There is a place about 80 miles from me that does this same thing.

They have a nice deal in which you can rent five discs (excluding new releases) for a week for $6.00, which I take advantage of quite often. I kind of enjoy going to the store, browsing the racks, looking at new releases, etc. - but I realize I am probably in the minority as far as that is concerned.

I liked the store too. Blockbuster had an online deal when you could do one instore exchange. That was great and they had older titles too and a lot of them.

The limited selection at Redbox is pretty depressing and makes it of little interest to me . I am a bit of a film buff and, although I enjoy many of the mainstream releases and love digging into a good "popcorn flick", I spend more of my time in pursuit of cinema that falls well outside of the small slice of cinema at a Redbox kiosk.


It kind of depresses me to think that a time may come where compressed streaming is the only remaining option.
No doubt. Whether it is over the air TV, Directv, cable company, Netflix.. they all don't look good on a big tv. Even on my bedroom 50" I am not satisfied.
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No doubt. Whether it is over the air TV, Directv, cable company, Netflix.. they all don't look good on a big tv. Even on my bedroom 50" I am not satisfied.
The NetFlix HD offerings look great on my 47". Much of it is due to your bandwidth. I have a 30 meg pipe via fiber optic straight to my house so it works well. Even then, for the first minute or so it is rather fuzzy. I've watched Metallica's Through The never a few dozen times on NetFlix but finally ordered a blu-ray because of the initial buffering. I've found that typically if you can start something then hit pause for a little bit then start it up it does better. I somehow doubt that NetFlix supports 7.1 surround and Dolby Atmos either.
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post #26 of 30 Old 08-14-2014, 03:57 PM
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I guess I'm part of the dying dinosaur breed. I collect software. No streaming for me. Just cd, some vinyl, bluray, and dvd where bluray is not available.

Whatever happened to xrcd I wonder?
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post #27 of 30 Old 08-14-2014, 05:43 PM
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I would pay money to see a 2 hour long MARK WALDREP vs MICHAEL FREMER home theater geeks show..
Fremer vs Waldrep on PPV $39.95. 8pm on August 32nd. Call your cable or satellite provider. Be there !

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post #28 of 30 Old 08-16-2014, 06:21 PM
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...... A great bargain today are live concerts on Blu-ray that can have exceptional video as well as audio content.
Hungarian Rhapsody: Queen Live in Budapest [Blu-ray] parts of which are glorious.
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post #29 of 30 Old 08-16-2014, 06:24 PM
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I came away from this Podcast thinking that if this format got any traction at all it would be a great way to preserve some historical recordings.
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post #30 of 30 Old 08-19-2014, 03:43 PM
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I finally met Mark W at the CAS Sunday. His booth was centrally located and very popular.

I think the most poignant point he's made so far is how the market will soon be flooded with 16/44 content labeled as high resolution. All those people re-purchasing the same resolution that lives on all their CDs or music servers.
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