Troublesome Trends (a new breed of colorization), another hurdle to be overcome. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 11 Old 04-24-2008, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I posting this here because this is where the people concerned with proper image set up reside.

I posted a reply below on an older thread in the LCD display forum discussion on Sony's new Bravia 120Hz LCD set. It didn't get much of a response, perhaps because no one understood it or the thread was too old and got very few views. My concern is regarding something that can actually be considered destructive rather than constitute a real benefit. The set in question has the new BRAVIA Engineā„¢ 2, Motionflow 120Hz high frame rate technology.


"Ever since I saw the picture from these sets its really been bugging me.

Remember VSM (velocity scan mod or edge enhancement) and how people were fooled into believing it was a good thing because to the untrained eye pronounced edging looked sharper. People had to be taught that it robbed resolution and detail. It wasn't until people like us started protesting that manufactures started making the feature user defeat-able.

Manufacturers are up to their old tricks again, just like blown out contrast and brightness for out of the box default setting to catch your eye on the showroom floor. This is another gimmick to fool potential customers into believing this is how your display should look. They have got people so misguided as to make them believe that the holy grail of a television picture is this smooth crystal clear glass like image.

What bothers me is that all this new processing instead of getting us closer to the film master is actually tampering with the directors vision and also taking out what was intentionally put in.

I have a modest business in video production, I shoot with both a ZU1 and an FX1 and sometimes the video looks so pristine it has that crystal clear glass like image . . . . well thats HD video. That maybe fine for some things like a talking head interview but not for others things such as motion pictures. So when I have to produce an artistic piece, out come all my film presets and plugins and sophisticated programs to, you guessed it, make video look like film. We change the gamma to approximate a film gamma curve, we color correct, color shift, mess with the RGB values, change color saturation, add softness, sometimes we change the frame rate in post as well, and sometimes we have to add, guess what, Film Grain and MOTION BLUR! The plugins also change a myriad of other small subtle elements in the final effort to make HD video look like film and to create a mood that I want to portray.

All those CG affects elements in Transformers were created on computer so they have the natural tendency to be perfect its not until the post production wizards get their hands on it does it become a credible piece. They added a lot of motion blur, film grain and many of the other things I've described. When I first saw Transformers on the Sony I felt I was watching raw HD video. The mood collapsed. Even the non CG clips looked like I was watching a HD broadcast of the 6 O'clock news. Many elements that I know were put in, the processors took out. I'm also inclined to believe that the processors are messing with the gamma curve because the image seams flat. But Sony's little gambit seams to be paying off, normal people were drawn to it, sales people were spouting off about it and I fear Sony will start a whole new trend with it. The Sony engineers know what they're doing and I'm guessing they purposely designed the processors to target key elements to make film look like video.

And so I imagine a whole new learning curve will initiate sometimes in the near future and another hurdle will have to be overcome. It will be interesting to see what directors and the film industry experts will have to say if the trend gets out of hand.

My two cents."

Please relate your experience with this technology. Has anyone else had a similar experience with this set?

Have a great day everyone!!

GMan

Regards
GMan
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post #2 of 11 Old 04-24-2008, 07:33 AM
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Greetings

Can't disagree here. The use of the 120 hz processing on film based material is just plain wrong. It makes film look like it was shot with a video camera. It changes the look of the film completely in many cases.

The general public needs to understand that there are instances where this processing should and should not be used. The football game ... the hockey game ... yes. Film based material ... no.

This effect it gives to film also is disorienting to me. It makes the images look down right strange.

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post #3 of 11 Old 04-24-2008, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMancusa View Post

I posting this here because this is where the people concerned with proper image set up reside.

I posted a reply below on an older thread in the LCD display forum discussion on Sony's new Bravia 120Hz LCD set. It didn't get much of a response, perhaps because no one understood it or the thread was too old and got very few views. My concern is regarding something that can actually be considered destructive rather than constitute a real benefit. The set in question has the new BRAVIA Engine 2, Motionflow 120Hz high frame rate technology.


"Ever since I saw the picture from these sets its really been bugging me.

Remember VSM (velocity scan mod or edge enhancement) and how people were fooled into believing it was a good thing because to the untrained eye pronounced edging looked sharper. People had to be taught that it robbed resolution and detail. It wasn't until people like us started protesting that manufactures started making the feature user defeat-able.

Manufacturers are up to their old tricks again, just like blown out contrast and brightness for out of the box default setting to catch your eye on the showroom floor. This is another gimmick to fool potential customers into believing this is how your display should look. They have got people so misguided as to make them believe that the holy grail of a television picture is this smooth crystal clear glass like image.

What bothers me is that all this new processing instead of getting us closer to the film master is actually tampering with the directors vision and also taking out what was intentionally put in.

I have a modest business in video production, I shoot with both a ZU1 and an FX1 and sometimes the video looks so pristine it has that crystal clear glass like image . . . . well thats HD video. That maybe fine for some things like a talking head interview but not for others things such as motion pictures. So when I have to produce an artistic piece, out come all my film presets and plugins and sophisticated programs to, you guessed it, make video look like film. We change the gamma to approximate a film gamma curve, we color correct, color shift, mess with the RGB values, change color saturation, add softness, sometimes we change the frame rate in post as well, and sometimes we have to add, guess what, Film Grain and MOTION BLUR! The plugins also change a myriad of other small subtle elements in the final effort to make HD video look like film and to create a mood that I want to portray.

All those CG affects elements in Transformers were created on computer so they have the natural tendency to be perfect its not until the post production wizards get their hands on it does it become a credible piece. They added a lot of motion blur, film grain and many of the other things I've described. When I first saw Transformers on the Sony I felt I was watching raw HD video. The mood collapsed. Even the non CG clips looked like I was watching a HD broadcast of the 6 O'clock news. Many elements that I know were put in, the processors took out. I'm also inclined to believe that the processors are messing with the gamma curve because the image seams flat. But Sony's little gambit seams to be paying off, normal people were drawn to it, sales people were spouting off about it and I fear Sony will start a whole new trend with it. The Sony engineers know what they're doing and I'm guessing they purposely designed the processors to target key elements to make film look like video.

And so I imagine a whole new learning curve will initiate sometimes in the near future and another hurdle will have to be overcome. It will be interesting to see what directors and the film industry experts will have to say if the trend gets out of hand.

My two cents."

Please relate your experience with this technology. Has anyone else had a similar experience with this set?

Have a great day everyone!!

GMan

I would guess it depends on how the set uses that 120Hz refresh.

There has been some discussion of this feature in the Sony A3000 thread. As far as we can tell, the A3000 simply repeats each frame of a 24p source 5 times to get a 120hz refresh. It is about as true to the original frame rate as you can get.

Some of the other "new" gadgets can affect how this is displayed. Motion Enhancer will interpolate new frames instead of simply repeating each frame 5 times in an effort to smooth out the motion. Motion Naturalizer will insert black frames to "mimic" a film projector. If your set has the same functions as the A3000, you can try turning them off and see what you think.

I actually think 120Hz refresh is a step in the right direction for consumer displays. Not because it is a gimmick, but because it allows so many widely use frame rates to be displayed without things like 3:2 pulldown. As with anything else, if the manufacturer uses it correctly it could be a real benefit; use it incorrectly and it quickly becomes a marketing gimmick.

I can't really comment on the gamma issue. I haven't noticed it myself, but I don't have any comparison material to show a difference.

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post #4 of 11 Old 04-24-2008, 10:37 AM
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I've not worked with one of those displays but Sony is no stranger to monkeying with features that would result in imaging standards being contradicted or compromised. They seem to value utility over fidelity and are certainly known to have a fondness for doing things to get attention in the market at the expense of artistic integrity.

I equate them with Bose in how they appear to pride themselves in marketing over engineering. They have engineering talent and do some things quite well, especially on the pro side, but prefer to appeal more to focus group responses than promoting artistic excellence and education in the mass market.

Keep speaking out and up. The masses will settle for mediocrity and therefore those who focus upon appealing to the masses will serve that sentiment in order to make more money with less effort. I'm fully in favor of prosperity and efficiency but also value beauty. Appreciation for beauty is enhanced by education and exposure to excellence. Bowing to the lowest common denominator may have some advantage but tends to stifle excellence.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
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post #5 of 11 Old 04-24-2008, 12:40 PM
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Quote:


Can't disagree here. The use of the 120 hz processing on film based material is just plain wrong. It makes film look like it was shot with a video camera. It changes the look of the film completely in many cases.

The OP is not talking about the set 120Hz scan rate, this is actually better for film based material as it lets the set avoid the 3:2 pull down.

He is Talking about all the edge enhancments and gamma tweeks and the other Electronic circuits that take all the work that Film and video editors put into a film or video out. it is not allowing the original content of the piece of art to be seen as it was meant to be seen. Television is meant to distribute a mass media, a news paper is a mass media distribution, but that paper is exactly the same for every one who receives it, not so with todays displays because of what the OP stated. It is a shame that msot consumers do not understand this and allow the big manufactures to continue.

Athanasios
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post #6 of 11 Old 04-24-2008, 03:11 PM
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Greetings

Read it again ... I read it right the first time. If you think the 120 hz processing is good for film, you keep watching it like that.


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post #7 of 11 Old 04-24-2008, 04:00 PM
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120 hertz refers to the refresh rate of the screen, the features you are talking about are things like Sony's Motion Enhancer which interpolates frames and adds them inbetween frames.

Using what you've written, go look at many plasma screens, many of them are 48 or 72 hertz.. this has only to do with their refresh rate and has nothing to do with altering the framerate or digitally interpolating frames into the movie. Again these things go by names like AMP or Motion Enhancer.

Before LCD's were 120 hertz refresh, they were 60 hertz refresh... They simply doubled the speed at which the screen is updated, this does not change the frame rate or motion of the movie in fact like someone said above it helps the set because now they can do proper 24fps native playback.

120 hertz is refresh rate that 24 hertz (24 fps) can divide into cleanly, 5:5 cadence. On some Plasmas that are 72 hertz this is 3:3 cadence native 24fps playback, and 48 hertz plasmas are 2:2.

120 hertz refresh rate is a good thing because now we have the ability to do native 24fps play back as well as 60 and 30 fps for other formats (720p/1080i).

On a 120hertz screen, when watching a blu-ray movie that is 24fps, it displays the same frame for 5 refreshes. Each of the 5 refreshes are simply1.6x as fast as a 72 hertz plasma, which plays each frame of a 24fps movie for 3 refreshes. The frames are still showed the same total amount of time on any native 24fps playback display.

So please don't confuse 120hertz refresh with Motion Enhancer and AMP and these other technologies. Please keep in mind that even Plasmas have higher refresh rates than normal, this is all to achieve a native 24fps playback on the display, in fact some plasmas and lcd's are going to offer 120 hertz and 240 hertz refreshes.

The faster the refresh the less flicker the display will cause and the less eye strain you'll have...
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post #8 of 11 Old 04-24-2008, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxobox View Post

120 hertz refers to the refresh rate of the screen, the features you are talking about are things like Sony's Motion Enhancer which interpolates frames and adds them inbetween frames.

Using what you've written, go look at many plasma screens, many of them are 48 or 72 hertz.. this has only to do with their refresh rate and has nothing to do with altering the framerate or digitally interpolating frames into the movie. Again these things go by names like AMP or Motion Enhancer.

Before LCD's were 120 hertz refresh, they were 60 hertz refresh... They simply doubled the speed at which the screen is updated, this does not change the frame rate or motion of the movie in fact like someone said above it helps the set because now they can do proper 24fps native
playback.

120 hertz is refresh rate that 24 hertz (24 fps) can divide into cleanly, 5:5 cadence. On some Plasmas that are 72 hertz this is 3:3 cadence native 24fps playback, and 48 hertz plasmas are 2:2.

120 hertz refresh rate is a good thing because now we have the ability to do native 24fps play back as well as 60 and 30 fps for other formats (720p/1080i).

On a 120hertz screen, when watching a blu-ray movie that is 24fps, it displays the same frame for 5 refreshes. Each of the 5 refreshes are simply1.6x as fast as a 72 hertz plasma, which plays each frame of a 24fps movie for 3 refreshes. The frames are still showed the same total amount of time on any native 24fps playback display.

So please don't confuse 120hertz refresh with Motion Enhancer and AMP and these other technologies. Please keep in mind that even Plasmas have higher refresh rates than normal, this is all to achieve a native 24fps playback on the display, in fact some plasmas and lcd's are going to offer 120 hertz and 240 hertz refreshes.

The faster the refresh the less flicker the display will cause and the less eye strain you'll have...

Thanks for backing me up !!!

Athanasios
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post #9 of 11 Old 04-25-2008, 04:37 AM
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You're quite right. Too much processing can cause undesirable effects.

An analogy is with Hi-Fi technology.

In the old days you'd have Japanese gear being produced with excellent specifications, but crap sound. They'd achieve great low distortion figures and low SN ratios by increasing negative feedback,etc...
Then you'd look at the specs of a simple valve product, crap specs; great sound.

Now, much the same way the television industry are producing great specs with processors. The processors may be able to correct one part of the picture, but have a drastic effect on another part of the picture. I was also wondering whether CMS could cause side effects? CMS may enable you to get to the ideal colour coordinates, but does it do this with side effects?

I must say that within this forum, we seem very particular about the colour quality, but luminance doesn't take such a major part. Also Geometry, most sets don't allow for adjustment of height and width. I prefer to under scan the image.
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post #10 of 11 Old 04-25-2008, 06:53 AM
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Greetings

http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/v120hz.htm

Al has a good break down of what it is about.

I admit that I confused it with the other nasty processing that the TV is also doing.

But as it reads, it is also not quite what one thinks it is as well.

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post #11 of 11 Old 04-25-2008, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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To everyone thanks for the responses, I'm glad to see that I'm not alone here.

As far as the 120Hz scan rate, if it were just a refresh rate that would be fine and would get us away from the 2:3 pulldown scenarios and the related artifacts associated with it. I suspect, however, that Sony is doing more than altering the scan rate. The motion flow circuits appear to be altering the film cadence. This is conjecture of coarse, I don't have any equipment to prove or disprove my statement.

nashou66: You are absolutely right, I am referring the the DELIBERATE attempt at targeting certain key film attributes and manipulating them to a point where all the artistic talent that went into the film in the first place is taken out or diminished. The end result being that the film now looks like raw HD video. This is the kicker and Sony knows it, it was amazing to see people looking at this set with mouths agape in awe of the images they were beholding. This is the troubling part for me, as more of this "unaware" mass appeal grows were going to see a lot more of this kind of manipulation.

GeorgeAB: Thanks for your input and vote of confidence. Your statement is well said, thanks for sharing. Its incumbent on people like us, on forums like this to voice our opinions loudly enough that it gets back to the manufactures. We've done it before, manufacturers did end up listening to us for many things over the years. Thats why I called this a hurdle that has to be overcome . . . . but its gotta start somewhere.

Have a great day!!

Regards
GMan
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