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post #121 of 223 Old 08-24-2008, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

The links to the eChalk and LottoLab demonstrations are found here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post10575635 It must be understood by anyone studying imaging science that our human visual system is very readily adaptive to circumstances. Therefore, no reliable visual check of electronic images for gray scale or color accuracy can be conducted without a visual reference. Such references typically include a neutral gray reference card under D65 illumination, or some type of optical comparator instrument. When Zues [sic] claimed to use a D65 reference monitor in setting up displays, I asked him what his reference monitor was. He refused to provide that critical and helpful information. If he adds that information to this thread, someone else will have to inform me, since he is on my ignore list.

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To add to what George said about visual references, I have a friend who works for a company that makes large 1-hour photo processing machines such as you see at Costco. He's been involved in photography and imaging since the mid 1960s, and has done installation and setup of these machines for years. We were discussing calibration of TV sets (I helped him on his) and were on the topic of how the eye and brain combo perceives color. He told me that the shift by photo developers to borderless prints was driven by complaints by customers about the color of their prints. It seems that the borders were providing a white reference that didn't match the lighting conditions under which the photos were originally taken. Customers were complaining that the whites of their prints did not match the borders and were assuming problems with the machines themselves. The developers were spending time and money doing color-correction, which can itself introduce errors, and machines were being needlessly recalibrated. Elimination of the borders got rid of the misleading white reference, and complaints subsided. The point is that an inaccurate reference can lead to bad results, even correction of a perceived "problem" that doesn't truly exist.

I'm sure this was old news to many of you, but might not have been to others out there.

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post #122 of 223 Old 08-24-2008, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

But how much do the settings actually differ from the exact same model? And even if there was known settings that would get most models accurate, it would be bad for business as everyone would just use those settings. If a well known calibrator calibrates one on the newer pioneers, and that owner gives out the settings, which would obviously be in bad taste, how many people are going to call up the calibrator? Probably not many. Unless they believe models really are radically different from one to another. Which i am not saying can not be true.

As was noted before, calibration pros never just copy settings. It would save a lot of work, but we know that is does not work. There would be no calibration business at all and no controls to be adjusted if there was not significant variance between sets of the same model. If everyone shared settings the result would be a lot of people watching improperly calibrated sets and a lot of people misled to believe that their sets are calibrated. People who want to know that their sets are performing optimally would still pay for calibration.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

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post #123 of 223 Old 08-24-2008, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

calibration pros never just copy settings.

I know it's not exactly what this discussion is about... IMO, you shouldn't use 'never'.

Many of my Professional Users (ControlCAL) have asked for me to implement an option to import/export Control Settings so they can start the calibration process with baseline/master settings for each specific Model.

This has been requested by DIYers from day one as well. I will be adding this option to ControlCAL soon.

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post #124 of 223 Old 08-24-2008, 11:51 AM
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Hi Guys:

I probably have no right to enter the discussion, being only an enthusiast for longer than I care to remember. My basic observations are..all TV's are different in their settings, some close and some very different. I seriously doubt if you can "copy" settings from one set to another and get "perfect" results, maybe not bad or they might make a good starting point for fine tuning. You really need some sort of reference, be it a test disc or better yet, test instrumentation.

In my neck of the woods (Newfoundland and Labrador...Newfoundland an island and the most easterly point in North America, so a little out of the mainstream) it was impossible to get an ISF calibration, so one was left with one's on devices for calibrating. When I bought a SONY 32XBR250 Direct view set about 8 years ago, I was bugging my dealer about ISF and they did send of a tech for the training course and I ended up being the first ISF calibration he did. In the intervening years he probably has not done enough calibrations to actually pay back the cost of the course and equipment, but at least it is available now, but only for that, "calibration" would hit or miss.

With respect to the SONY XBR250, you could not get a good calibration out of the box with the user settings. I remember the greyscale was actually a purple/yellow scale on NTSC std. I got into the service menu and tried to eyeball the low cut and high drive by an increment or two to make it watchable. It turned out on ISF measurement to be not too bad, but of course the ISF was better, but a compromise had to be msde in the low end, higher delta E and a bit blue or smaller delta E and a reddish tint (one click) if I remember correctly. Also out of the box there was a setting that FLOATED the black level....drove me crazy until I figured out what to reset in the service menu (from AVS forum if I remember correctly!) that resulted in the set having rock solid black levels. There was also another problem with the component inputs and certain DVD players that needed a setting change (also AVS note!....great place). Colour and tint and black level had been set by VE and were good, but obviously you needed to enter the service menu to get "perfect" results...even then the screen was darker left, to lighter on the right! After calibration, a friend took my service menu settings entered them to his set and more or less hosed it, some of the settings were totally different from the factory starting points.

My recent purchace, a PIONEER PRO-111 seems to be much better in being consistent with setting seen in test reports (especially D-nice and his great work) but my settings are slightly different, e.g. colour D-nice +2, mine +6, Ultimate A/V +9, plus some slight differences in brightness settings, ranging from -1 to +2! The sets are close, but they are at least slightly different in settings. So a good starting point but you need a reference to go by. ISF calibration is probably the way to go and I plan on it in the near future. Not everyone is going to have that option, and maybe my tech will need new instrumentation and if it is expensive, the market here will probably not allow it, so possibly another compromise.

At least owners should get out of the torch modes, and use general settings that can get the picture looking like it should, correct colour temp, no edge enhancement, non blooming colours, etc.. Many people will have to go by the owners manual and the "stock" settings, most do not care...torch mode, blue faces all the way...and the few fanatics like us try for perfection. I always wondered why the manufacturers did not provide a group of settings that would be correct, they could still supply the "crap" settings for those who wanted them. This would allow the set to perform at least close to correctly out of the box.....it seems as if the PIONEER Elite plasmas are closer to this, PURE mode is good. LOW colour temp is close, all NR settings are defeatable, etc. and there are still settings for SPORT, OPTIMUM.... for those who want them. Maybe things are slowly improving (though the PIONEER plasmas are not really mass market items), but sometimes, owners are at the mercy of the manufacturers even if the owner really wants a "correctly functioning" set, especially if profressional calibration is not possible.

Perfection is great (and some newer sets can be calibrated to near perfection) but life is full of compromises and sometimes as much as we want it, it cannot be achieved and we have to work with what we have! Copying setting may be a reasonable starting point, but do not take them as the "holy grail", it depends on the set in question.......I hope all this makes sense and is relevant to the discussion.

Cheers,
P.E.H.
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post #125 of 223 Old 08-24-2008, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


As was noted before, calibration pros never just copy settings.

Quote:


I know it's not exactly what this discussion is about... IMO, you shouldn't use 'never'.

Many of my Professional Users (ControlCAL) have asked for me to implement an option to import/export Control Settings so they can start the calibration process with baseline/master settings for each specific Model.

This has been requested by DIYers from day one as well. I will be adding this option to ControlCAL soon.

The operative word was "just," meaning 'only.' There are other reasons why this feature could be helpful for adding to calibration software. One is to be able to go back to the same display for a post-calibration re-tweak at a later date. Another would be to restore everything speedily after a repair service that may have voided the original work. Our point here is that sharing settings between display samples is unpredictable and no substitute for either disc or instrument calibration in each owner's viewing environment, with their source components.
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post #126 of 223 Old 08-24-2008, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

There are other reasons why this feature could be helpful for adding to calibration software. One is to be able to go back to the same display for a post-calibration re-tweak at a later date. Another would be to restore everything speedily after a repair service that may have voided the original work.

Yes, archiving each Calibration Session was also a reason given to add an import/export option and I think this would be beneficial for Professionals.

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post #127 of 223 Old 08-24-2008, 03:06 PM
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Perhaps for "professionals" using ControlCal software.
I'd assume that you do not publish those calibration settings.
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post #128 of 223 Old 08-24-2008, 03:16 PM
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For the archives, but I originally posted in regards to using saved baseline settings for a model. Pros could access a library of baseline settings and contribute to the library.

Need to find a Professional Calibrator? Click Here to PM me with your Display & City

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post #129 of 223 Old 08-24-2008, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

I know it's not exactly what this discussion is about... IMO, you shouldn't use 'never'.

Many of my Professional Users (ControlCAL) have asked for me to implement an option to import/export Control Settings so they can start the calibration process with baseline/master settings for each specific Model.

This has been requested by DIYers from day one as well. I will be adding this option to ControlCAL soon.

I stand by my statement. I said pros never JUST copy settings. There may be cases where certain settings may be used as a starting point, but anyone who ever ONLY copies settings is not a professional. EVERY case where baseline settings or any other copied settings are used should ALWAYS be measured and the settings adjusted for the specific set. Even if by chance the settings all came out exacly correct, they would still need to be verified by measurement, thus not ONLY copied. To clarify the statement I would agree that some baseline settings may be appropriate, but this is not the end of the process, only the beginning.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

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post #130 of 223 Old 08-24-2008, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

But how much do the settings actually differ from the exact same model?

I have 2 Samsung LCD LN**A650s (same line and firmware) and both are requiring different settings; from Color Space to Grayscale, the values are not identical. Even when the environment and components are the same.

I don't copy settings. The funny thing is it wasn't because I knew better, I just like to do things myself. Initially, my settings and methods were all over the place; there was no science to it. Then I started to read the information here and elsewhere on what display calibration is. As a result, I fair out much better results every time I take a stab at it.

Version #3: My (current) settings for Samsung LNxxA650
Let's make this clear: Calibration IS NOT synonymous with copying settings!
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post #131 of 223 Old 08-24-2008, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Yes, archiving each Calibration Session was also a reason given to add an import/export option and I think this would be beneficial for Professionals.

It'll sure beat writing every session down and an easier way to rollback if needed, which I do so often.

Version #3: My (current) settings for Samsung LNxxA650
Let's make this clear: Calibration IS NOT synonymous with copying settings!
Join the Samsung LCD Owners Social Group! :)
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post #132 of 223 Old 08-25-2008, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

But how much do the settings actually differ from the exact same model? And even if there was known settings that would get most models accurate, it would be bad for business as everyone would just use those settings. If a well known calibrator calibrates one on the newer pioneers, and that owner gives out the settings, which would obviously be in bad taste, how many people are going to call up the calibrator? Probably not many. Unless they believe models really are radically different from one to another. Which i am not saying can not be true.

The settings vary enough that the shared settings were not as good as just leaving the factory settings and using a test/setup disc to adjust the basic controls. I find TVs often don't even START with the same service menu settings from the factory. Whether there are running panel changes during production or different firmware versions or running component changes, or an automated factory system that produces different numbers for each panel to compensate for panel/component differences. One of the banes of electronics production is that vendors discontinue componets all the time and the replacements, even though they are the same value, don't perform the same way in the circuit so designers and engineers have to find a substitute that DOES work without having to make circuit changes. It's an annoying process and sometimes leads to firmware changes that are not compatible with previous serial numbers... the variables are way over the top.

These are consumer products designed to perform reasonably well for prices low enough that consumers will pay the price to own one. These are NOT military spec instruments designed to all perform the same way and to all be completely interchangeable in every way. I'm sure it would be possible to build video displays that way, but a $2000 display would probably sell for $12,000 because you'd have to purchase the entire production run of every component all at one time so they all come from 1 batch and there won't be changes or discontinuances and you'd be designing circuits to maintain the same tolerances and signal integrity at numerous critical points through the product... very expensive.

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post #133 of 223 Old 09-02-2008, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Where are these people coming from? It appears that there might be some common influence somewhere that is responsible for directing such traffic to this section of the forum. What a nuisance!
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post #134 of 223 Old 09-02-2008, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

Where are these people coming from? It appears that there might be some common influence somewhere that is responsible for directing such traffic to this section of the forum. What a nuisance!

I know, it's almost laughable how many more posts we are getting now for this. Seems like there's a new one every day now. Crazy!!!

You jinxed us George.
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post #135 of 223 Old 09-05-2008, 07:51 PM
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This must become a Sticky. Now. It's gotten plain silly this week.

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post #136 of 223 Old 09-06-2008, 03:55 AM
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This must become a Sticky. Now. It's gotten plain silly this week.

How about if the calibration forum becomes password protected and people have to pass an IQ test before they can post here?

I mean, seriously, check this thread out in the LCD forum : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1063785

I cannot understand why so many people think they are "owed" so much by the rest of the population.
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post #137 of 223 Old 09-06-2008, 05:37 AM
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How about if the calibration forum becomes password protected and people have to pass an IQ test before they can post here?

I mean, seriously, check this thread out in the LCD forum : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1063785

I cannot understand why so many people think they are "owed" so much by the rest of the population.

Quoting Faux News isn't helpful either.
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Quoting Faux News isn't helpful either.

SHHHH-Stop saying things like that! You'll upset the folks out in COLORADO!


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post #139 of 223 Old 09-06-2008, 06:22 AM
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Quoting Faux News isn't helpful either.

Guess I'm too dense this am; I don't get it.

BTW, what kind of boat do you have?
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post #140 of 223 Old 09-06-2008, 06:31 AM
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Guess I'm too dense this am; I don't get it.

BTW, what kind of boat do you have?

Unfortunately it's an ex-boat, but I haven't figured out how to change my forum name to SadNonBoater.
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post #141 of 223 Old 09-06-2008, 06:33 AM
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Unfortunately it's an ex-boat, but I haven't figured out how to change my forum name to SadNonBoater.

Gotcha.
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post #142 of 223 Old 09-06-2008, 12:08 PM
 
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Gotcha.

The first thing you learn about owning a boat is that it quickly becomes a hole in the water you pour money into.

A boat also becomes an owner's "mistress" owing to the fact said owner often spends more time on the weekends with the boat than with his wife!
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post #143 of 223 Old 09-10-2008, 06:50 AM
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In my neck of the woods (Newfoundland and Labrador...Newfoundland an island and the most easterly point in North America,

Off topic, and just for fun, the most Eastern point of North America is the tip of the Alaskan Alutian Island chain which is on the far side of the 180th meridian. You know, like near the "Far East". Of course we must define both easterly and eastern.....

Just for fun.

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post #144 of 223 Old 09-10-2008, 07:26 AM
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I see both sides.... Some folks don't have a "clue" about landscaping or gardening and would benefit well from hiring it out. While others would only change what the professional did because it didn't fit their eye and taste.

In medicine, the paramedic learns to use instinct and limited to tools to assess in the field by deductive reasoning, history, and experience what many Doctors cannot do unless they have all their lab results, Cat scans, and MRI results in first even when its obvious and right in front of them!

I think the profession of calibrating screens has its place and is even "needed" for a monitor viewed by the general public or viewed my millions.

But on a personal level, its not fair to say that someone's personal taste should be over-ran by the books and what true color card settings depict.
Some people like a little more sharpness, or bolder color, verses true to life hence we have the plasma verses LCD discussions.

Some feel the watered down, toned down look matches real life as everything does not look like a coloring book, whereas others prefer "like myself" to see the world through HD binoculars rather than what our dim site can afford by itself. The HD camera sees much more than our mere eyes can pick up and I prefer that vision.

There is no right and no wrong, only preference.

I can appreciate a professional calibration as some who think they are talented at depicting colors would be pleasantly surprised from the effects of a professional calibration.

Some are really convinced they sing well on American Idol, but their preference in music will make the rest of us laugh or puke.

Likewise, some who get professional calibrations only turn around after the guy has left the door and set it how they want it anyway as the perfect calibration did not meet their taste.

TV's are quite personal.. just like a computer and many do not want a professional to set it up but would rather tweak it themselves while other are lost and would appreciate the help.

I for one, don't want my TV to look like it does out my backyard window but rather prefer the "postcard" look where all the excess polarized white light has been removed and colors are rich and bold with crispness of detail.

If someone has the money to play and experiment or really wants a professional calibration, I say go for it.. but many do ok without it.

As some of the purist may say, my settings may not depict reality, but at least it makes me want to be there!

I love an HD world.. but I'm a colorful guy!

* The second mouse gets the cheese.
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post #145 of 223 Old 09-10-2008, 07:41 AM
 
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My wheels are out of alignment on my car. Can somebody tell me how to adjust them so they are straight? Can you give me the settings on how your wheels are adjusted, I'll just copy that, and they should end up straight, right?
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post #146 of 223 Old 09-10-2008, 08:07 AM
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don't be so defensive Chris.. with a car alignment you are dealing in absolutes and safety rather than subjective viewpoints based on the senses and personal preference.

But yes, since you mentioned it.... when I buy my car, I expect it to go straight down the road without having to have it adjusted first by a professional.

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post #147 of 223 Old 09-10-2008, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


There is no right and no wrong, only preference.

Welcome to the forum. However, you need to do some homework before commenting on display calibration. Your statement I've quoted is utterly false in this context. Please read this post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1021933 .

Personal preference has nothing to do with image fidelity or display accuracy. Would you prefer to go to an art museum only if you are allowed to carry cans of paint with you to adjust the paintings to your preference? Everyone with a fundamental understanding of how video works knows that the motion imaging industries are governed by standards, not individual user preference. If your goal in adjusting the picture on your TV is personal preference, you are in the wrong section of the forum.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
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post #148 of 223 Old 09-10-2008, 09:58 AM
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I'm not here to stir an argument and I respect your numerous posts which means your are surely knowledgable about this by now....Especially Chris's, but if I had no other alternative or and easy 500.00 to toss, I would try it, but to buy such a nice TV, there should be an easier method for the user to get spectacular views rather than having to sink more money.

I agree speculation and preference will not stand up to real numbers, but it will stand up to preference!....

Sometimes the real numbers are not desirable when the final product is viewed is all I"m saying.

ON the other hand, I would be curious to see what a professional job would do to improve what I already have.

The only places I really see that could improve may be the dark subtleties of the dark scenes etc, otherwise its perfect for me!

And your right... perfect only seems perfect until better comes along.
But for my eye and everyone that graces my threshold to my living room, they are blown away with the realism.

I'm sure an expert could tweak some more perfections out of the picture I don't know how to access, but at least I'm in the ball park of awesome!

* The second mouse gets the cheese.
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post #149 of 223 Old 09-10-2008, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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There is no logical argument on the correct nature of display calibration. Either you follow the rules of the system to realized the intended results, or you deviate from the rules of the system and suffer the video consequences. Consumer HDTV displays today produce impressive images. Display calibration is not about impressing people, but reproducing the original program as faithfully as possible.

Have you ever seen a reference image on a professional monitor? What is your frame of reference for image quality? If you think the readers of this section of the forum have any interest in your personal objections for pursuing display calibration, you're mistaken. Most of us have heard such tedium far too often. Please make up your mind whether image fidelity is worth enough to you to acquire an accurate image, or devote your attention to other sections of the forum.
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post #150 of 223 Old 09-10-2008, 11:04 AM
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If set to personal preference and are happy... that's fine.

The whole point of thread is about "copying" someone else's settings, not whether professional calibration is "worth it" to an individual.

Are your settings "copied"? If not... then give it a try and let everyone know how it works out for you.
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