Sharing display menu settings? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 223 Old 09-11-2008, 11:59 AM
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Chris... I respect your enormous number of post... "almost 16000 now" and I"m sorry so many are closed to any view but their own... While everyone pats each other on the back and tells each other how wonderful they are, I will save everyone the trouble of placing me on their kill file and I will unsubscribe from this thread.... there are just too many Geniuses out here to learn anything or hear a differing point of view or taste.

This seems to be a social club more than a learning center.

I respectfully appreciate everyone that has attempted to help me understand and "to understand".

Everyone can go back to business as usual.

* The second mouse gets the cheese.
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post #182 of 223 Old 09-11-2008, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windstrings View Post

Chris... I respect your enormous number of post... "almost 16000 now" and I"m sorry so many are closed to any view but their own... While everyone pats each other on the back and tells each other how wonderful they are, I will save everyone the trouble of placing me on their kill file and I will unsubscribe from this thread.... there are just too many Geniuses out here to learn anything or hear a differing point of view or taste.

This seems to be a social club more than a learning center.

I respectfully appreciate everyone that has attempted to help me understand and "to understand".

Everyone can go back to business as usual.

This is simply BS. The fact that there are people here who understand display calibration and have firm opinions about it does not mean that this is a closed club with everyone walking in lock step. I have differed with most of the other professionals here at one time or another, and like others, have offered criticism of those with limited perspective. It does not keep me from learning a lot, nor does it keep many others from learning a lot from the many professionals and experienced DIYers here. Many of them give great amounts of their time and effort to educating the public, and do it for free. If you choose not to learn, that is your right. I cannot, however, allow the statements to go unanswered.

Yes, there are those here who have a limited perspective. Some of those same people have contributed many times more than you ever will and they deserve thanks for what they do, regardless how obtuse their perspective may be.

The point of the thread was that this forum is for the science of calibration. Sharing settings is of very limited usefulness in terms of calibration and does not belong here. There are model and brand specific threads which are far more appropriate for that information. The only way that sharing settings makes sense is to a limited degree within the same models and to a lesser degree within brands. It is not calibration, whether you want to call it that or not. It may be perceived as useful to many, but it does not belong here. That issue has been settled with the weigh in of forum administrators and is not up for debate any longer.

Mark, can we now finally close this thread and make it a sticky, or have someone write a single post that summarizes this to stick in the forum?

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

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post #183 of 223 Old 09-11-2008, 12:58 PM
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Even if Mark doesn't sticky this thread, it is days like today that guarantee this thread won't be far from the top in the forum.

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post #184 of 223 Old 09-11-2008, 01:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windstrings View Post

Chris... I respect your enormous number of post... "almost 16000 now" and I"m sorry so many are closed to any view but their own... While everyone pats each other on the back and tells each other how wonderful they are, I will save everyone the trouble of placing me on their kill file and I will unsubscribe from this thread.... there are just too many Geniuses out here to learn anything or hear a differing point of view or taste.

This is a complete straw-argument, a tactic you seem to continue to revert to.

I am sorry, but the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers, the International Telecommunications Union, among other bodies, are who establish and standardize video formats and their attributes. The idea that I am somehow "closed minded" by advocating adherence to these global standards is preposterous. That EVERY SINGLE piece of video and audio content on DVD or blu-ray, or broadcast is created in studios that go to enormous lengths and expense to follow these standards and indeed many that are geared specifically for the studio that consumers largely don't even know about(such as wire timing specs, etc) goes pretty far in shaming your assertion that somehow this is being "closed minded." The fact that you are ignorant of all of this infrastructure and decades of progress on the standardization front doesn't make myself or anyone else who you stumble across for the first time "closed-minded." That's absolutely ridiculous.

I am not closed minded by believing that the Meter is the international unit of measure of distance/length. If you think I am, then I have no further intelligent response to such absurdity. And that's really the claim you're making.

Frankly, you are being closed minded since you neither understand nor appreciate the dedication and purpose of these bodies and their standards. You are ignorant of the ENORMOUS strides in content delivery and content quality that their work affords us as end-users. So how you could POSSIBLY call me or anyone else here "closed-minded" for continuing to chase the bleeding edge of technology and image quality, and attempting to achieve the very best that is possible in imaging today, is simply farsical.

Quote:


This seems to be a social club more than a learning center.

I respectfully appreciate everyone that has attempted to help me understand and "to understand".

Everyone can go back to business as usual.

And this is both inherently contradictory ("it's not a learning center" "thank you for helping me understand"), and actually kind of insulting. You realize that there are dozens of enthusiasts, DIY calibrators, and professional calibrators on this forum who spend their time learning and sharing how to go about achieving the best possible image on your TV. Neither myself, nor any of the many on this forum who spend an inordinate amount of time doing this get a cent from it. And for those who make a living doing calibrations, for them to give away a great deal of understanding and knowledge and experience to help the DIY enthusiast when they could very fairly be paid for the same work, it's all the more insulting that you insinuate that nobody is here to share knowledge and teach others.

The amount of knowledge gathered here in threads, posts, FAQs, and archived threads is staggering.

So before you insult me for having a high post count, perhaps you should realize that there are a large number of those posts dedicated to helping others and teaching what I do know about video.

Perhaps if you shifted your attitude away from an uninformed, closed-minded, and indeed insulting one, you might actually learn something.
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post #185 of 223 Old 09-11-2008, 02:18 PM
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I would love to make this thread a sticky...but I don't like the idea of closing it

Let me instead ask that we move on: enough of this: or you will be asked to leave the thread

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post #186 of 223 Old 09-11-2008, 05:21 PM
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Since the thread will be continuing, I think it is time to re-visit the original post which led to this being stuck. It pretty much sums up the matter and most of the users with significant knowledge of video and calibration will find little to argue in its content. The degree to which shared settings are useful is obviously limited to specific products, under certain conditions, which makes the advice to take those questions and discussions to product specific threads hard to debate. Frankly, I just don't see that there is much more to discuss other than to fine tune the way it is stated, perhaps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

You are in the wrong section of the forum if you want to copy or share display menu settings. Try the display owners section that corresponds to your model. Copying settings is NOT calibration. All that such foolishness will get you is a TV picture that might look a little like someone else's TV (which you have likely never seen). Then again, it might not look anything at all like theirs. How do you know your viewing environment conditions will be identical? Will you also insist that they used the same DVD player that had its picture options menu set the same as yours? Some basic "picture modes" may be superior on certain displays. These can be used in common for better performance, but actual picture adjustment values can vary significantly.

Electronic component tolerances used in consumer TVs and source components are very loose and imprecise (+/- 10% or worse). Because these tolerances are so imprecise, two samples of TV can come off the same assembly line and require very different picture settings to look near the same.

I vividly experienced this last year when I was called in as an image quality analysis consultant for one of the largest national cable TV companies. They were doing a research project, using three new higher-end Panasonic 50" plasmas of the same model, and set up in ideal viewing conditions. Their engineers had gone over the picture settings on each display and set the menu items all identically. Two of the plasmas looked nearly like each other (not identical), but the third one was obviously different.

Widely respected professional calibrators, who have aligned thousands of consumer and professional displays in their careers, agree on this point. The only way to reliably attain a more accurate image from any consumer display is to use reference test signals, NOT another display's settings. At minimum, use a calibration DVD on YOUR player, to adjust YOUR television, follow the tutorial instructions, set the picture controls for YOUR viewing environment conditions, and learn a lot from the experience. The simplest remedy is to hire a professional. Excellence in any endeavor requires effort. Copying others' work on another device is a fool's errand, with no assurance of improvement.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"


Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

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post #187 of 223 Old 09-11-2008, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

No we are not. Better is defined by global and accepted professional imaging standards. That is the ONLY way we can meaningfully discuss what is or is not a quality image.

The trouble "we" are having, is that YOU do not want a high quality image, but instead want an image that fully follows whatever your whims and desires are. That's fine. That's what YOU want. But there is nothing ambiguous about whether an image in a reproduction system is of high quality or not. It either matches the reference, or it does not. You can say you don't like that definition, and you'd rather not have a high quality reproduction, but would rather manipulate it yourself to suit your own subjective whims. That's fine. But there is no legitimate debate about what is or is not a high quality reproduction because the attributes of that reproduction system are rigidly defined by international standard. If you don't want a high quality reproduction, that's fine.

It's what I've said before. If you don't care about high quality images, fine. Don't waste our time.


So basically what you are saying is it does not matter what one observes. From a observation standpoint anyone's opinion is meaningless because it's not backed up by scientific standards-data. As long as someone says there display was calibrated to standards using scientific equipment, it's 100% accurate? I don't believe that considering display-tools- limitations and capabilities.
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post #188 of 223 Old 09-11-2008, 07:21 PM
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This is too funny!
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post #189 of 223 Old 09-11-2008, 08:03 PM
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@Zues,

Nothing in life is 100%. The goal is to come close to the standard as possible, a reference point. We reach that goal through calibration.

Version #3: My (current) settings for Samsung LNxxA650
Let's make this clear: Calibration IS NOT synonymous with copying settings!
Join the Samsung LCD Owners Social Group! :)
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post #190 of 223 Old 09-12-2008, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

So basically what you are saying is it does not matter what one observes. From a observation standpoint anyone's opinion is meaningless because it's not backed up by scientific standards-data. As long as someone says there display was calibrated to standards using scientific equipment, it's 100% accurate? I don't believe that considering display-tools- limitations and capabilities.

I don't think he said any of that. The point, to simplify it for you, is that your observation does not equate to accuracy. There are tools to achieve greater accuracy than any of us can get by observation alone. There are numerous factors that affect and constantly change our perception of image quality and make observation not only inaccurate but imprecise. If that observation is satisfactory to you, that is fine. It is inappropriate for you to try to generalize the meaningfulness of your observations and perception to others. It is not science. As calibrators we try to achieve the closest performance to industry standards that we can. We also understand the limits of that process.

As reasonable people we also understand the limits of patience with those who simply wish to argue positions that are inconsistent with the science. When you make statements that clearly distort what others have said, you are testing that patience. Most here have had enough and it is time that you either understand what you are told and discuss the matter in terms of what people are trying to communicate to you or go away. You contribute nothing by attempting to make someone elses post into something it is not.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

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post #191 of 223 Old 09-12-2008, 07:11 AM
 
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One thing is 100%, and that's the ignore list that Zues is on.
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post #192 of 223 Old 09-12-2008, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

One thing is 100%, and that's the ignore list that Zues is on.

Who?

Color accuracy evangelist and CalMAN insider
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post #193 of 223 Old 12-12-2008, 01:01 AM
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Hello what is the recommended user settings for a Panasonic TX-32LMD70F?
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post #194 of 223 Old 12-12-2008, 05:36 AM
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nissebanan - Welcome to the AVS Forum!

I recommend getting a calibration disk like Digital Video Essentials or AVIA and using it to determine the most accurate settings for your TV and viewing environment.

This forum is a great place to discuss any issues you have with it.
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post #195 of 223 Old 12-12-2008, 05:51 AM - Thread Starter
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nissebanan,

Try reading at least the opening post this thread, not just its title.
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post #196 of 223 Old 01-09-2009, 09:04 AM
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I hate to perpetuate this "debate" because it seems like most have had enough of it, but after reading this thread and several display threads on this forum I'm more confused than ever.

From the OP in this thread: "Copying others' work on another device is a fool's errand, with no assurance of improvement. "

Fair enough. So here's my genuinely sincere question as an HDTV n00b: Then why are there so many threads on this forum encouraging sharing of settings?

I know the OP has suggested that people find the calibration threads for their particular TV model, which makes sense, but even so I see repeated warnings that settings among identical models can produce different results. And those warnings are then followed by more people posting their settings.

I'm not trying to take sides (because I don't know enough yet about HDTVs to do so), but as a n00b I feel like I'm getting a lot of mixed messages from both experts and mods on this board. Unless I'm just reading things wrong.

What's the bottom line? Ignore all suggested settings and leave it to a pro? Use a suggested setting as a starting point then go from there? Or just do what looks best to you despite what someone else's line graphs and charts say?
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post #197 of 223 Old 01-09-2009, 09:12 AM
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Even though the thread tended to wander into opinions on whether sharing was worthwhile, the main point of the thread is that there are two different areas within AVS to post. One is the calibration forum where posters use tools (colorimeters, software, etc.) and some amount of science to improve their picture. The other are TV-specific forums such as "Official Sony xxxx Tweaks and Tips" where posters share settings that may or may not be a good first step at fixing some of the uglier "out-of-box" issues with some TVs. Whether or not the latter forums have any value has been beat to death.
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post #198 of 223 Old 01-09-2009, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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As has been asserted by imaging industry professionals, and attested to by consumer practitioners, copying settings may or may not be beneficial (and in some cases even detrimental). The point of this thread is to redirect such forum traffic to the appropriate section where settings can be discussed by specific TV model owners.

TweakTV even has a site dedicated to such information. However, even they make clear that copying settings is no substitute for professional calibration services.

Quote:


Fair enough. So here's my genuinely sincere question as an HDTV n00b: Then why are there so many threads on this forum encouraging sharing of settings?

Because many have found that it results in an image they perceive as an improvement over how the set looks out of the box. However, some have not liked the results. Such discussions are allowed in the forum, but they don't result in a calibrated display as defined by industry standards. This section of the forum is dedicated to "Display Calibration." Just because a lot of people talk about something and encourage its practice, doesn't mean it's legitimate and fits in every context. Remember Y2K? Popular consensus can be wrong, or of questionable utility.

Quote:


What's the bottom line? Ignore all suggested settings and leave it to a pro? Use a suggested setting as a starting point then go from there? Or just do what looks best to you despite what someone else's line graphs and charts say?

If you want to be assured of image fidelity and a display system that behaves according to imaging industry standards and recommended practices, get your system calibrated by a professional or learn to do it yourself. If image fidelity and display accuracy are not that important to you, join the masses of video consumers who don't see sufficient value in such concerns. Is there confusion in this forum on these issues? Of course. Welcome to human discourse.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
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post #199 of 223 Old 01-09-2009, 11:25 AM
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Thanks for the replies. Again, no snarkiness was intended. I'm just honestly confused and curious. I guess I should have asked my question in a different thread. I get the feeling I touched a nerve by asking it in this one. If so I'm sorry.
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post #200 of 223 Old 01-09-2009, 12:37 PM
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Greetings

Don't think anything of it. This is a good place to ask your question.

regards

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post #201 of 223 Old 03-13-2009, 07:43 AM
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I have a Sharp LC52D64U 52" Aquos LCD HDTV. I hooked it up with a HDMI cable….. It looks great put too much red. I looked at MANY posts but not sure if the 46” is the same as the 52” settings. PLEASE HELP! It’s starting to drive me CRAZY!
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post #202 of 223 Old 03-13-2009, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Please read the first post in this thread.
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post #203 of 223 Old 03-19-2009, 09:53 AM
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anyone have a sony bravia kdl32m3000 t.v.? whats your calibration settings? I am a bit curious. I have my bravia calibrate just wanted to see what your settings are

backlight set @ 5
piicture set @ 84
brightness @ 19
Color @ 45
hue 0
Color Temp Warm 1
Noise Reduction Low
Sharpness 36

Pure Audio = Audio Goodness
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post #204 of 223 Old 03-19-2009, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Please read the opening post in this thread.
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post #205 of 223 Old 03-25-2009, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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post #206 of 223 Old 06-10-2009, 07:54 PM
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I'm glad I opened a new tab for this. You cats really had me goin
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post #207 of 223 Old 06-10-2009, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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post #208 of 223 Old 06-13-2009, 08:39 PM
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Epson EX 70 calibration settings anyone?
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post #209 of 223 Old 06-14-2009, 06:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Please read the opening post in this thread to see what the context is before submitting comments.
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post #210 of 223 Old 07-21-2009, 05:52 PM
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I did post to D_NICE in the G10 plasma thread George. I think using someone elses good settings as a start can usually get you in the ball park, especially if they give you their original settings. It is wise to write down everything in the menu before you start to change anything and to use a calibration dvd too in order to fine tune things after using the copied setting advances as a starting point.

Unfortunately many of the poorer consumers, like me, are already way past what we should probably be spending when we buy a modern TV so we can't easily afford a professional to come in and tune it properly for us.

I hope the manufacturers can one day make TV sets that are really true to the media they are ideally made to faithfully reproduce, right out of the box.

Perhaps better burn in and quality control procedures would help?

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