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post #1 of 223 Old 08-13-2008, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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You are in the wrong section of the forum if you want to copy or share display menu settings. Try the display owners section that corresponds to your model. Copying settings is NOT calibration. This is the 'Display Calibration' section of the forum. All that such foolishness will get you is a TV picture that might look a little like someone else's TV (which you have likely never seen). Then again, it might not look anything at all like theirs. How do you know your viewing environment conditions will be identical? Will you also insist that they used the same DVD player that had its picture options menu set the same as yours? Some basic "picture modes" may be superior on certain displays. These can be used in common for better performance, but actual picture adjustment values can vary significantly.

Electronic component tolerances used in consumer TVs and source components are very loose and imprecise (+/- 10% or worse). Because these tolerances are so imprecise, two samples of TV can come off the same assembly line and require very different picture settings to look near the same.

I vividly experienced this last year when I was called in as an image quality analysis consultant for one of the largest national cable TV companies. They were doing a research project, using three new higher-end Panasonic 50" plasmas of the same model, and set up in ideal viewing conditions. Their engineers had gone over the picture settings on each display and set the menu items all identically. Two of the plasmas looked nearly like each other (still not identical), but the third one obviously looked quite different.

Widely respected professional calibrators, who have aligned thousands of consumer and professional displays in their careers, agree on this point [example: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16121112 ]. The only way to reliably attain a more accurate image from any consumer display is to use reference test signals, NOT another display's settings. At minimum, use a calibration DVD on YOUR player, to adjust YOUR television, follow the tutorial instructions, set the picture controls for YOUR viewing environment conditions, and learn something from the experience. The simplest remedy is to hire a professional. Excellence in any endeavor requires extra effort. Copying others' work on another device is a fool's errand, with no assurance of improvement.

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post #2 of 223 Old 08-13-2008, 12:50 PM
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Please make this thread a sticky.

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post #3 of 223 Old 08-13-2008, 03:05 PM
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amen!!
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post #4 of 223 Old 08-13-2008, 04:57 PM
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great info and I agree 100%, my question though was there something that provoked this post or more of an FYI to the people reading this forum?
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post #5 of 223 Old 08-13-2008, 05:31 PM
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I agree George, and also tell people the same thing about copying others settings however....I also tell them that using someone elses calibrated settings for the same make/model can be a good starting point for calibration, and certainly better than leaving a set in showroom torch mode.

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post #6 of 223 Old 08-13-2008, 06:06 PM
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I agree copying settings is not ideal as the source plays a part. But i don't think one should just call for help for a calibration, if you are a enthusiest. You should learn to know what a accurate picture looks like. It's not that hard, most photos on the internet are very accurate to get a idea. Most top brand tv's come pretty accurate and give you plenty of controls to achieve a top level picture. Learn to know yourself i say or you will forever be trusting someone else to tell you it's accurate.
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post #7 of 223 Old 08-13-2008, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


my question though was there something that provoked this post....?

This thread is my feeble attempt at possibly steering people who want to swap settings to the proper section of the forum. The display calibration section has been recently littered with such confused posters. I was motivated to promote a bit of housekeeping so this section could remain better focused and rewarding for folks who are serious about display calibration.
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post #8 of 223 Old 08-14-2008, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I agree copying settings is not ideal as the source plays a part. But i don't think one should just call for help for a calibration, if you are a enthusiest. You should learn to know what a accurate picture looks like. It's not that hard, most photos on the internet are very accurate to get a idea. Most top brand tv's come pretty accurate and give you plenty of controls to achieve a top level picture. Learn to know yourself i say or you will forever be trusting someone else to tell you it's accurate.

So looking at pictures over the internet with a computer monitor (that is most likely desperatly in need of calibration) is going to help you adjust your TV???

Sorry, I don't understand the logic of that, or i'm totaly misunderstanding you.

As to most major brand TV's being comming pretty accurate out of the BOX?? Sorry again, on which continant is this happening??? Here in europe they are way Off.
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post #9 of 223 Old 08-14-2008, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I agree copying settings is not ideal as the source plays a part.

This implies that the video displays might all be the same - that's absolutely NOT the case. I have see every variation you could imagine... some brands/models are always different from one another even in the basic controls. Other brands/models may be pretty close on 3 or 4 settings (like contrast, brightness, color, tint, sharpness), but completely different on other settings (grayscale, gamma, color management, etc.).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

But i don't think one should just call for help for a calibration, if you are a enthusiest. You should learn to know what a accurate picture looks like. It's not that hard, most photos on the internet are very accurate to get a idea.

Uh... most photos on the internet are completely messed up because there are no standards for color online. Photos you take with your own digital camera are not even accurate as different manufacturers tune their cameras to make images look prettier than real life (though there may be settings on some cameras that allow more accuracy). Accurate color online requires: 1) accurate original images with color management; 2) internet browser with color management (Firefox 3.X has this capability but it only works if condition #1 is met and this is VERY rare at this point); 3) the video display on your laptop or desktop PC has to be accurate and calibrated... and not calibrated by eye, calibrated with instrumentation.

It's EXTREMELY rare to find a situation where 1, 2, and 3 above are all "in play".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Most top brand tv's come pretty accurate and give you plenty of controls to achieve a top level picture. Learn to know yourself i say or you will forever be trusting someone else to tell you it's accurate.

I guess your definition of "pretty accurate" and mine are very different. In my experience, most "top brand" TVs come with errors or shortcomings (like Gamma lower than ideal, or red push, or inaccurate primaries/secondaries) with no adjustments at all to fix the problem(s). It is the exceptional video display that comes with all the adjustments needed to make the picture "ideal". Right now, current Samsung displays have the best set of adjustments available in displays less than $7500 or so. But as good/complete as the Samsung display controls are, they still lack 10- or 11-step gray scale adjustments with adjustable luminance for each step (for perfect Gamma control).

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post #10 of 223 Old 08-14-2008, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Zues,

What is the significance of your screen/user name?
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post #11 of 223 Old 08-15-2008, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Zues,

Cat got your tongue (or keyboard)?
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post #12 of 223 Old 08-15-2008, 01:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

Zues,

Cat got your tongue (or keyboard)?

Pick on my handle, George. At least his is not a misconstrued interpretation of a video calibration standard! And I've learned to be self-defacating about my handle since AVS forum control panel provides no means to change it.
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post #13 of 223 Old 08-15-2008, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by D-6500 View Post

And I've learned to be self-defacating about my handle.

LOL!
Did you mean self-defecating or self-deprecating?
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post #14 of 223 Old 08-15-2008, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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It's amazing to me how quickly some contributions in this forum can degenerate a constructive discussion into such a misdirected, shallow and juvenile direction. Such 'drive by' posts consistently make a spectacle of ignorance, immaturity, and only serve to diminish the credibility of their source. This kind of clueless masochism is embarrassing at best and deeply troubling at worst. I started this thread to encourage clarity and precision in the display calibration portion of the forum. Please help keep it on track.
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post #15 of 223 Old 08-15-2008, 03:17 PM
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That can and will happen... IMO, you helped this along.

It's a shame. Your opening post should've been made a sticky and locked from further postings. It's really not a 'discussion' per se, but good advice that needs no rebuttle.

Maybe the thread can be cleaned up, made a sticky and locked. Zues can respond to your question via PM.
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post #16 of 223 Old 08-15-2008, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Good points.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

It's amazing to me how quickly some contributions in this forum can degenerate a constructive discussion into such a misdirected, shallow and juvenile direction. Such 'drive by' posts consistently make a spectacle of ignorance, immaturity, and only serve to diminish the credibility of their source. This kind of clueless masochism is embarrassing at best and deeply troubling at worst. I started this thread to encourage clarity and precision in the display calibration portion of the forum. Please help keep it on track.

Lighten up a little! Kirk had the same problem on board Enterprise with his science officer - you know who. That Vulcan, with the brains of 10 humans, simply could not deal with Terran humor or colloquialisms. And yes, I meant self-depracating. If you hadn't been so persistent in determining the origin of Zues's handle, we wouldn't be on this tangent. It is, I must concur, most illogical . . .
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post #18 of 223 Old 08-15-2008, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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lighten up a little!

ok.
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post #19 of 223 Old 08-17-2008, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

This implies that the video displays might all be the same - that's absolutely NOT the case. I have see every variation you could imagine... some brands/models are always different from one another even in the basic controls. Other brands/models may be pretty close on 3 or 4 settings (like contrast, brightness, color, tint, sharpness), but completely different on other settings (grayscale, gamma, color management, etc.).




Uh... most photos on the internet are completely messed up because there are no standards for color online. Photos you take with your own digital camera are not even accurate as different manufacturers tune their cameras to make images look prettier than real life (though there may be settings on some cameras that allow more accuracy). Accurate color online requires: 1) accurate original images with color management; 2) internet browser with color management (Firefox 3.X has this capability but it only works if condition #1 is met and this is VERY rare at this point); 3) the video display on your laptop or desktop PC has to be accurate and calibrated... and not calibrated by eye, calibrated with instrumentation.

It's EXTREMELY rare to find a situation where 1, 2, and 3 above are all "in play".



I guess your definition of "pretty accurate" and mine are very different. In my experience, most "top brand" TVs come with errors or shortcomings (like Gamma lower than ideal, or red push, or inaccurate primaries/secondaries) with no adjustments at all to fix the problem(s). It is the exceptional video display that comes with all the adjustments needed to make the picture "ideal". Right now, current Samsung displays have the best set of adjustments available in displays less than $7500 or so. But as good/complete as the Samsung display controls are, they still lack 10- or 11-step gray scale adjustments with adjustable luminance for each step (for perfect Gamma control).


IMO most top brands are pretty accurate, sonyXBR-pioneer elite.
I think Sony is the most accurate. Pioneer is pretty accurate but grayscale needs alot of attention. Samsung? Well i don't think they can match sony even if it has more controls, i could be wrong. I guess i just dont feel given the same access to the same controls that nobody could noticeably best what i could do by eye. I'll put my non-calibrated d65 factory crt monitor up against any dispaly for grayscale-color temp accuracy. If i can get the image to match that in many demanding scenes i doubt someone could do better with just instrumentation-test patterns etc. The only way i see paying someone to calibrate my display is if i was not happy and known service menu adjustments needed to be made and i was not comfortable venturing in there. As far as adjusting user menu controls with top brand tv's, i bet i come closer using a reference crt monitor and scrutinizing critical scenes then just using tools and test patterns.
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post #20 of 223 Old 08-17-2008, 03:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

Zues,

Cat got your tongue (or keyboard)?


Hehe no. I'm not saying hiring a professional is not worth it. I know if i had a crt front projector, it would be well worth it. But even then many love tinkering with there stuff and would not let anyone touch it. But top brand tv's and projectors i don't think i'm wrong when most enthusiests would be very happy calibrating it themselves. Not just hiring someone and them telling you it's accurate. It's not rocket science or voodoo. All you can do is slightly improve what the manufacturer gave you. And contrary to popular belief someone could really mess it up if they don't know what they are doing. I doubt no two calibrators do the same work, and their settings would differ on the same display.
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post #21 of 223 Old 08-17-2008, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

ok.



First smiley I've seen in one of your Posts...



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post #22 of 223 Old 08-17-2008, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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'Zues'

What is your "non-calibrated d65 factory crt monitor" and what is the significance of your name?
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post #23 of 223 Old 08-18-2008, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

IMO most top brands are pretty accurate, sonyXBR-pioneer elite.
I think Sony is the most accurate. Pioneer is pretty accurate but grayscale needs alot of attention. Samsung? Well i don't think they can match sony even if it has more controls, i could be wrong.

Sony XBR products are not particularly accurate without instrumented calibration. I owned the Gen2 original 25" crt XBR monitor in the 1980s, an XBR HD CRT in the 1990s which I still own, and an XBR2 RPTV I've owned for 18 months. None of them had partlcularly accurate color space or grayscale before calibration. I setup the 2 CRTs by eye for years thinking I was doing a fantastic job. It was only when I used calibration tools on those monitors that I realized how "off" I had been. And I'm not the average Joe when it comes to video displays. I worked for Kodak for 34 years on all kinds of imaging systems for still and moving images... film, digital, video, computer-based, pro photography, printing and publishing, cinema, 3-D, WYSIWYG color (which requires calibration from viewing consitions to output conditions including calibrated video displays). I had decades of experience with instrumentation at work. I figured with what I knew and the experience I had that a "simple" consumer video display would be a piece of cake for me to get perfect with a test/setup laserdisc or DVD. Man, was THAT wrong-headed thinking. Consumer video displays are actually far more diabolical than pro video displays

I reviewed a 60" Pioneer Elite Kuro for Widescreen Review last winter, and while it was the best display I had seen up to that time, it was nowhere near perfect and there were/are all kinds of limitations to keeping it from being perfect. Out of the box it was OK, but really needed measurements and adjustments to get it to be what it was capable of being. But limitations in the usefulness of the CMS adjustments and limited adjustment range for Gamma kept that display from being "great" - again, at the time, it was the best you could get, but it has/had limitations and you'd be lost trying to minimize those limitations without calibration tools - you just can't do it by eye. It is not possible.

Right now, the Samsung plasmas are producing the best images I've ever seen on a self-contained video display... save that the black levels are not as dark as the first generation of Pioneer Kuro displays. Not only can you make the primary and secondary color coordinates PERFECT (with instrumentation only, impossible by eye) and I mean PERFECT, not just very close, but perfect to 3 decimal places, you can set the LUMINANCE of Red, Green, and Blue to make the primaries accurate in 3 dimensions. This is unheard of except in video processors that cost more than 2 times the street price of the Samsung plasmas. This is unprecedented control, but it cannot be exploited without calibration. Also, Samsung plasmas can achieve a Gamma of 2.5 (what is used in professional monitoring and mastering) while the Pioneers cannot get that high (8 Gen cannot, I have a 9 Gen coming this week, we shall see what it can do re. Gamma).


Quote:
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I guess i just dont feel given the same access to the same controls that nobody could noticeably best what i could do by eye.

Wishful thinking at best. Your perception is a tricky thing. You can easily fool yourself into thinking you have "good" adjustments... then you actually measure what you've done and find you are so wrong it's not even funny. Only a good instrumentation can unravel the complexity of color perception unambiguously. If I can't do it by eye after 34 years of working (and the incredible amounts of training I received) on imaging systems from $30,000 to $1,000,000 or more, there's no chance someone without that experience is going to be better at it. I SUCK at setting up by eye and I'm a lifetime imaging professional. I am lost without instrumentation. The only advantage I have over you is that my training and experience have made me wise enough to know I SUCK at trying to get accurate results without instrumentation. Other people think what I do by eye is "magic" ("That's incredible!" is the typical comment I get), but I know that if I'd had my instrumentation, I would find that there are all sorts of problems. Surprisingly, when a video display is accurately adjusted with instrumentation... our perception INSTANTLY recognizes the images as accurate... though we may have THOUGHT the non-instrumented adjustments looked great, it's only when you see the instrumented/calibrated images that you think "Oh, guess I wasn't doing as well as I thought." Perception is a funny thing. If you look at a 64 step gray scale and see that one of the brighter steps looks obviously yellow... there is a 50-50 chance that the yellow step is fine but the steps to the left and right of it are too blue... your perception tells you the "too blue" steps are white so you THINK the "yellow" step is too yellow when that's not the problem at all. This is just one way human perception works and how we are fooled - and why instrumentation reveals reality. Making the "too blue" steps accurate will make the yellow-looking step disappear. Without using instrumentation, most people would make the yellow step more blue to make it look like the nearby steps and now everything is too blue making all colors inaccurate.


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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I'll put my non-calibrated d65 factory crt monitor up against any dispaly for grayscale-color temp accuracy. If i can get the image to match that in many demanding scenes i doubt someone could do better with just instrumentation-test patterns etc. The only way i see paying someone to calibrate my display is if i was not happy and known service menu adjustments needed to be made and i was not comfortable venturing in there. As far as adjusting user menu controls with top brand tv's, i bet i come closer using a reference crt monitor and scrutinizing critical scenes then just using tools and test patterns.

More wishful thinking and/or denial. You'll put yourself up and lose miserably. I don't mean to be offensive or insulting... it's just the truth. I calibrated my Sony XBR2 RPTV with a Spyder2 which is HIGHLY inaccurate when measuring projection-lamp displays and it was STILL better than what I was able to do by eye (save for red cast and red push that were toned down by eye using service menu controls). The point is... a bad (and quite cheap) instrument did many things better than I could do by eye. I don't recommend using that type of instrument on projector lamp displays, it's just an illustration that even a marginal instrument can tell you things about what a display is doing that your perception can't reveal no matter how much or how little training you have had.

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post #24 of 223 Old 08-18-2008, 02:00 PM
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You are way too generous, Doug, especially in the time you take to respond to posts that are repeated all over the forum by the same doubting Thomases (while they offer no reasonable alternatives).

I think I can speak for most everyone when I say your candor, knowledge, experience and detailed explanations are very appreciated.
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post #25 of 223 Old 08-18-2008, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you Doug for taking the time to educate the casual reader of this thread, who might otherwise be misinformed by the ludicrous post you confronted and aptly deconstructed. Since I started this thread, it seems to have attracted the flies from the dung heap of their perpetual confusion to spoil the sweet ointment of logic, reason and accuracy. They know who they are and also know that they are widely recognized in this forum to lack credibility. Your interest, vigilance, perseverance, experience and insights are appreciated. We all make mistakes but unfortunately some in this community refuse to learn from theirs.

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post #26 of 223 Old 08-18-2008, 06:51 PM
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I appreciate your response doug. One of the best for reason to use instrumentation. I still would take a challenge with two top brand tv's side by side to see how much better your settings with instrumentation looks. With real world content, a movie playing. As far as it being "impossible" to achieve a very respectable picture just using your eye you got me thinking. But i'm curious what you have to say with these reviews. It sounds like it don't take much at all to be in the ballpark.


Pro150 review quote.


''Switching to the PRO-150FD's "pure" picture preset resulted in the best out-of-box HD color gamut response I've ever seen from a TV. Primary colors were right on target, and the secondary colors were nearly perfect, too. The set's six-color adjustment control proved effective for making precise, slight adjustments, too, so that in no time I had all colors displaying exactly as they should. Color temperature and grayscale tracking with the default pure mode preset revealed red and blue were slightly dominating green, but a set of white balance controls in the regular menu brought the tracking into admirably tight alignment. I did notice, however, that the white balance controls lacked the fine granularity of the TV's other color controls making this critical adjustment somewhat unwieldy''



SonyXBR4 review quote.


That's because our review sample's picture in both Custom and Cinema modes came uncannily close to the D6500 standard for color temperature. We speculated during the Panasonic TH-58PZ700U review that perhaps the sample we'd received wasn't quite representative of samples in the field, and in the case of the KDL-46XBR4 we received from Sony, we again suspect that judicious engineers may have something to do with our sample's accuracy. Regardless, the out-of-the-box color temperature on this Sony is among the best we've measured, and after a just few tweaks to the white balance controls and other settings, namely gamma, power saving and standard picture controls, it was ready for evaluation.
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post #27 of 223 Old 08-18-2008, 08:09 PM
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Of course, some displays are more ideal out of the box than others. Furthermore, some have menus that are more accessible and have greater control range so they can be worked closer to their full potential.
Not telling you anything new here, but I believe this is applicable whether you are using a cal disk, precision instrumentation, or your 'calibrated' eyeball. Some displays simply have more limitations than others.
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post #28 of 223 Old 08-19-2008, 11:19 AM
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Zues, I'm sure you know this, but unfortunately for your argument, the reviewers you quoted use instrumentation to measure the out of the box--and later, the calibrated--performance of the displays they test. You can't base your expectations of the performance of every example of a particular model of display on that of a review sample. The reviewers may have gotten a tuned ringer, a good untuned set, or one that was really off. Remember, manufacturers set up consumer displays on the factory floor by eye, for speed of production, not accuracy.

Can you make a display look subjectively better by eye with a test disk? Sure. Will it then be accurate to the established standards? Most likely not.

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post #29 of 223 Old 08-19-2008, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I appreciate your response doug. One of the best for reason to use instrumentation. I still would take a challenge with two top brand tv's side by side to see how much better your settings with instrumentation looks. With real world content, a movie playing. As far as it being "impossible" to achieve a very respectable picture just using your eye you got me thinking. But i'm curious what you have to say with these reviews. It sounds like it don't take much at all to be in the ballpark.


Pro150 review quote.


''Switching to the PRO-150FD's "pure" picture preset resulted in the best out-of-box HD color gamut response I've ever seen from a TV. Primary colors were right on target, and the secondary colors were nearly perfect, too. The set's six-color adjustment control proved effective for making precise, slight adjustments, too, so that in no time I had all colors displaying exactly as they should. Color temperature and grayscale tracking with the default pure mode preset revealed red and blue were slightly dominating green, but a set of white balance controls in the regular menu brought the tracking into admirably tight alignment. I did notice, however, that the white balance controls lacked the fine granularity of the TV's other color controls making this critical adjustment somewhat unwieldy''



SonyXBR4 review quote.


That's because our review sample's picture in both Custom and Cinema modes came uncannily close to the D6500 standard for color temperature. We speculated during the Panasonic TH-58PZ700U review that perhaps the sample we'd received wasn't quite representative of samples in the field, and in the case of the KDL-46XBR4 we received from Sony, we again suspect that judicious engineers may have something to do with our sample's accuracy. Regardless, the out-of-the-box color temperature on this Sony is among the best we've measured, and after a just few tweaks to the white balance controls and other settings, namely gamma, power saving and standard picture controls, it was ready for evaluation.

My guess is that both of these "reviewers" got displays that had already been reviewed/calibrated by someone else. It also sounds like they may not have rechecked things after making adjustments. The Pro-150s CMS controls completely screw up grayscale tracking if you use an adjustment of more than 4 or 5 clicks out of a 50 click range and the more clicks you use, the worse grayscale tracking is. The Pro-150 I reviewed had a color space that was too large in Color Space 1 and too small in Color Space 2 (Color Space 2 was actually kind of OK for SD color space, but not for HD color space). Trying to use the CMS controls to make Color Space 1 accurate resulted in completely messing up grayscale tracking... yes, I could make most of the colors better, but not completely right because the Pioneer CMS controls have only 1 slider for each color... for example, Green's slider has Blue at one end and Red at the other end. You can move Green towards Red or towards Blue but not towards both at the same time. Green was displaced vertically from the ideal coordinate so the Pioneer CMS controls were worthless to make Green much more accurate. Green was up and to the right of where it should have been. I pulled it a little more toward blue (to the left and down) but it would never get low enough to be accurate. With Color Space 2 being too small... the Pioneer CMS controls were completely useless - there is no way to move a color's coordinates outward with the CMS controls. So on the Pro-150 you are forced to pick accurate color or flat grayscale with low errors - you can't have both. I ended up making the grayscale errors a little worse in exchange for slightly more accurate colors. I then diddled with the Color and Tint controls trying to improve the Color space measurments even more and got the measurements to look good, but the picture didn't look right in spite of the pretty decent color space measurements. On the Pro-150, turning down the color control pulled the measured coordinates inwards towards the d65 point on the CIE chart. So you ended up with desaturated color and a tint in the images in order to get ideal measured coordinates for the primaries.

At the time I reviewed the Pro-150, I was so blown away by the quality of the images, it was easy to overlook the REAL limitations. Like the first time you drive any supercar... the experience is so overwhelming, you don't even notice your butt gets REALLY REALLY sore after 45 minutes.

I've calibrated a number of XBR4 LCDs and NONE of them came out of the box REMOTELY like the one did in your quoted description. The reviewer even says that the panel was suspiciously accurate out of the box. You have to keep in mind, as a reviewer, that somebody may have diddled with your review sample before you got it. In fact, it may have been to another reviewer before you got it and that reviewer may have fully calibrated the display. Every reviewer has to be wary of this - this particular reviewer was wary but changed the subject pretty quickly. I typically check every input if the first one seems unrealistically accurate. You won't find a manufacturer intentionally using different settings for different inputs - they apply the same settings to all inputs. So you can sometimes root out whether that first input had been "idealized" a bit before you got the display. I am running about 50-50 on receiving displays that have been previously "touched" before I receive them. So out of the box measurements ALWAYS have to be suspect. Being a calibrator and reviewer gives me an opportunity to see more than just the 1 display I have for review (not all the time, but many times) and after seeing 2 or 3 more displays from the same model series, you can begin to tell even more about the out-of-box capabilities.

1) You can't trust every reviewer to get everything right 100% of the time, not even me.

2) You can't trust the displays reviewers get (for reasons mentioned above)

3) You can't trust the reviewer's instrumentation unless they are using something pretty much foolproof (and expensive) like the Konica-Minolta CS-200, one of the Photo Research PR series spectroradiometers, or maybe the Progressive Labs spectroradiometer if it and it's software have been perfected (haven't seen one since January when it was still a little buggy).

4) There's no standard for what exactly "out-of-box" measurements are. Are they literally "out-of-the-box" or are you allowed to use a test/setup disc to set Brightness, Contrast, Color, Sharpness, Tint, etc. - I do the latter before I make the initial measurements since everybody I write reviews for would do the same thing if they bought the display. But some reviewers may measure the display before making any settings at all. So you may not be comparing apples to apples when you read various video display reviews.

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post #30 of 223 Old 08-19-2008, 03:01 PM
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IMHO

1) no TV is "perfectly" calibrated out of the box
2) TV's sent to reviewers are probably tweaked beforehand by the manufacturer to impress and/or get a good review. As was noted, even the reviewers had to adjust. So much for out of the factory and out of the box. Even they aren't perfect knowing that they tried to stack the deck.

I highly doubt that reviewers "eyeball" settings. In order to give a "fair review", they calibrate with the proper gear to provide a fair review. IN other words... fair ground. Apples to apples based on the standards.

Out of the box "being close" is not calibration.
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