New Calibration Tool, Excel Download - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 123 Old 01-20-2009, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
stereomandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,316
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
I created this Excel spreadsheet in hopes that it would make calibrations easier for you all. It has helped me greatly. It is designed to work with HCFR and the AVSHD disc, but you can enter the required information from any measurement software. The saturation measurements should come from AVSHD, since these were the saturation targets I used for the calculations.

The Excel spreadsheet provides the following:
1) Calibration Aid. Provides correct brightness and saturation locations for all color windows in AVSHD. Also provides Brightness targets for 10%, 20% 100% gray windows for a user selectable gamma.
2) CIE Gamut charting, with all color reference saturation points (something not available in HCFR) Now including color background
3) Edit 1-21-09, Updated to include 'u 'v charting. Now including color background
4) Color brightness versus saturation charts (versus the incorrect method in HCFR)
5) Color Saturation %error versus saturation charts, x, y color space
6) Edit 1-30-09, Updated Color Saturation %error versus saturation charts, 'u 'v color space
7) dE charting at all color measurement points (something not available accurately in HCFR)
8) New 2-7-09 Worksheet from Bill Mitchel to adjust primary and secondary llocations and brightness if a gamma of 2.22 is not used. User is able to select any gamma they choose. -These calculations are yet to be verified.
9) New 2-7-09 Worksheet from angryht to adjust secondary locations if the primary locations do not line up with the target locations. This is similar to the Accupel calculator

If you open a file in HCFR, and check the editable data box on the main screen, you can then highlight the cells you need and copy and paste them into my file. For example, use the dropdown menu and choose Red Saturation Scale Highlight all 15 of the cells that you need. Choose, Edit, Copy from the top menu bar. Highlight the correct cells for red saturation in the Excel file and choose, Edit, Paste. Repeat for all the colors.

In the first and second worksheet, also simply type in the Y value from your 100% gray window from the Grayscale menu in HCFR and the worksheets will automatically provide brightness targets for accurate 2.22 gamma and primary and secondary color brightness.

I think some of you will be very surprised how far off your 25-75% color saturations are off, even if your 100% saturations are set optimally.

Note:
A special thanks to Tom Huffman, who's dE measurement calculations were used, and then adjusted, to cover all other color saturation points on the AVSHD disc, not just the 100% saturation points.


Update: 1-22-09. The locations in my files are correct and accurate. Enjoy! To be the most accurate, a gamma of 2.22 should be strived for


Update: 4-11-09. Included HCFR specific % bar values for 100% and 75% saturation windows. These are the bars to the left of the ftL and cd/m2 readings on the bottom left of the HCFR main screen. Simply use your CMS saturation and hue adjsutments to match the %'s listed in my table. Takes a lot of guesswork out of hitting the correct saturation and hue.
Dan

 

Gamut, Saturation, Brightness, dE Chart.zip 376.2724609375k . file
HolySnai likes this.
stereomandan is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 123 Old 01-20-2009, 04:15 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Bear5k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,239
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It's like we've come full circle.

Color accuracy evangelist and CalMAN insider
Bear5k is offline  
post #3 of 123 Old 01-20-2009, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
stereomandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,316
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

It's like we've come full circle.

???

Dan
stereomandan is offline  
post #4 of 123 Old 01-20-2009, 05:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Lee Bailey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Central California,USA
Posts: 1,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

???

Dan

Starting from entering data into spreadsheet entries, to total automation, and now back to entering data back into a spreadsheet.
Lee Bailey is offline  
post #5 of 123 Old 01-20-2009, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
stereomandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,316
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Oh, gotcha. Hopefully some of this will be in the next HCFR update, and then we won't need auxiliary files like this.

Dan
stereomandan is offline  
post #6 of 123 Old 01-21-2009, 06:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lovingdvd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,923
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

Oh, gotcha. Hopefully some of this will be in the next HCFR update, and then we won't need auxiliary files like this.

Dan

Thanks Dan! Have you contacted the HCFR or posted in their thread about the issues you have encountered? They are highly responsive and I'm sure they will fix bugs they are alerted to.
lovingdvd is online now  
post #7 of 123 Old 01-21-2009, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
stereomandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,316
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
I just did, and then came in here and saw your post. Good timing!

Dan
stereomandan is offline  
post #8 of 123 Old 01-21-2009, 07:00 AM
Advanced Member
 
cbaseuser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 609
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

I created this Excel spreadsheet in hopes that it would make calibrations easier for you all. It has helped me greatly. It is designed to work with HCFR and the AVSHD disc, but you can enter the required information from any measurement software. The saturation measurements should come from AVSHD, since these were the saturation targets I used for the calculations.

The Excel spreadsheet provides the following:
1) CIE Gamut charting, with all color reference saturation points (something not available in HCFR)
2) Color brightness versus saturation charts (versus the incorrect method in HCFR)
3) Color Saturation %error versus saturation charts
4) dE charting at all color measurement points (something not available accurately in HCFR)
5) Primary and secondary brightness targets versus 100% gray window
6) Brightness targets for 10%, 20% 100% gray based on 100% gray window value for a 2.22 display gamma.

If you open a file in HCFR, and check the editable data box on the main screen, you can then highlight the cells you need and copy and paste them into my file. For example, use the dropdown menu and choose Red Saturation Scale Highlight all 15 of the cells that you need. Choose, Edit, Copy from the top menu bar. Highlight the correct cells for red saturation in the Excel file and choose, Edit, Paste. Repeat for all the colors.

In the first and second worksheet, also simply type in the Y value from your 100% gray window from the Grayscale menu in HCFR and the worksheets will automatically provide brightness targets for accurate 2.22 gamma and primary and secondary color brightness.

I think some of you will be very surprised how far off your 25-75% color saturation's are off, even if your 100% saturation's are set optimally.

Note:
A special thanks to Tom Huffman, who's dE measurement calculations were used, and then adjusted, to cover all other color saturation points on the AVSHD disc, not just the 100% saturation points.


I should note that all of the charts that deal with color saturation are based on where I assumed that AVSHD targets them. The AVSHD target points are currently being debated, and I will update this thread when the final conclusion is made as to where the AVSHD is targeting the 0%, 25%, 50%, 75% and 100% saturation points.

Dan

Concerning #2, what is the "incorrect method" you are refering too?
cbaseuser is offline  
post #9 of 123 Old 01-21-2009, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
stereomandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,316
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post15611490

I explain it here in my bug report.

Dan
stereomandan is offline  
post #10 of 123 Old 01-21-2009, 07:15 AM
Advanced Member
 
cbaseuser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 609
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post15611490

I explain it here in my bug report.

Dan

Just to make something clear for myself - I have a 6500UB. I've read most of your posts concerning the epsons and oversaturation at 100%, but looking better if calibrated to 75% saturation. Is this right....calibrate to 75% SATURATION, (which is still 100% luminance of the colors), and make sure the Y of the 75% sat. colors is the standard percentages of the 100% grey (once again, also at 100% luminance) to the standard offset percentages, i.e. Red 21%, etc.....


I don't have excel in front of me so I can't play around with it right now..

thanks

cbaseuser is offline  
post #11 of 123 Old 01-21-2009, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
stereomandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,316
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Exactly

Dan
stereomandan is offline  
post #12 of 123 Old 01-21-2009, 08:04 AM
Advanced Member
 
cbaseuser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 609
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

Exactly

Dan


Awesome!!! You ought to write an epson calibration for dummies guide
cbaseuser is offline  
post #13 of 123 Old 01-22-2009, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
stereomandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,316
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Updated with a new chart, and the reference locations in the spreadsheet have been verified and are coorect. Thanks Tom Huffman.

Dan
stereomandan is offline  
post #14 of 123 Old 01-22-2009, 12:34 PM
Advanced Member
 
eddiscus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Thanks for taking the time to put this together. But maybe I am missing something on the brightness error values.
Just as a check i entered the reference x,y values for red into the measured red fields and used a measured Y value of 21.3% of the value entered into the measured field for 100% white. 35 was entered into the 100% white field so my measured red Y entered was 7.44. The calculated Y% matches the reference Y % but the brightness error reads 3393.0 %.
If my measured readings match the reference readings shouldn't the brightness error = 0%
eddiscus is offline  
post #15 of 123 Old 01-22-2009, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
stereomandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,316
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Yes, good catch. I copy and pasted that table in the spreadsheet and forgot to put the calculations in there. It is fixed now. The Gamut color is now on the background of the x, y and u', v' charts as well.

Dan
stereomandan is offline  
post #16 of 123 Old 01-25-2009, 10:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Mitchell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I love the visual representation, as well as the numeric representation in the error at the various saturation levels. As Tom Huffman mentioned in the other thread, the disk and the target points are calculated assuming a gamma of 2.22. But, as is frequently discussed, there are reasons to choose another gamma value for the display device. So it makes me wonder, given that we know the values recorded on the disk, how hard is it to recalculate the target measurement points for the actual gamma, either the chosen reference gamma or the average gamma measured? That way, the saturation measures would estimate an error from non-linearity in the handling of saturation and any non-linearity in the handling of luminance, without treating a deliberate choice of a different gamma as an error.

This could be an exercise for the student ...
Bill Mitchell is offline  
post #17 of 123 Old 01-25-2009, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
stereomandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,316
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
I'm not familiar with how the saturation points would change if gamma changes. I think the calculations are fairly involved. Tom knows, but I don't. I target 2.22 myself, but I see your point regarding other gamma's

Dan
stereomandan is offline  
post #18 of 123 Old 01-29-2009, 02:31 AM
Member
 
lunkens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have a problem with "," and "."

Values are represented in HFCR with "." (eg. R= 0.640, 0.329)
and the excel spredsheet want the value to be written with "," (eg R= 0,640, 0,329)

I can't use copy and paste and this is a real pain in the neck. How can I come around this matter?

Cheers for the spredsheet, it's great!
lunkens is offline  
post #19 of 123 Old 01-29-2009, 04:59 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
stereomandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,316
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
I don't have that problem at all. I can simply copy from HCFR and paste into the spreadhsheet. Both use the period for the decimal point. Is there some kind of formatting that can be changed in your preferences for Excel? Are you using a European version of Excel, for countries that use a , instead of a . for a decimal point?

Not sure why this is happening for you.,

Dan
stereomandan is offline  
post #20 of 123 Old 01-29-2009, 06:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
angryht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 1,321
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
What if my primaries are not able to be moved (via CMS) to the gamut targets? Does this tool account for this? Will this save me any time when I normally have to use the accupel tool to calculate the new targets for brightness of the primary colors and the new x,y,Y of the secondaries?

-Greg
angryht is offline  
post #21 of 123 Old 01-29-2009, 06:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
angryht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 1,321
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Another couple of questions:
1. The only way that I have been able to copy and paste is to do each individual field at a time. I tried the export to xls file and it doesn't seem to export all of the data. Anybody have success with that?
2. Should we be using the 75 percent stimulus value of Y, based on Tom's recommendations?

Thanks again for the great tool.

-Greg
angryht is offline  
post #22 of 123 Old 01-29-2009, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
stereomandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,316
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by angryht View Post

What if my primaries are not able to be moved (via CMS) to the gamut targets? Does this tool account for this? Will this save me any time when I normally have to use the accupel tool to calculate the new targets for brightness of the primary colors and the new x,y,Y of the secondaries?

Right now the spreadsheet is purely based on the REC.709 reference locations. I'll see if I can allow custom 100% saturation points to be entered from accupel, and have the other reference locations(25%, 50%, 75%) adjust accordingly. Shouldn't be that hard, but will just take a little time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angryht View Post

Another couple of questions:
1. The only way that I have been able to copy and paste is to do each individual field at a time. I tried the export to xls file and it doesn't seem to export all of the data. Anybody have success with that?
2. Should we be using the 75 percent stimulus value of Y, based on Tom's recommendations?

Thanks again for the great tool.

You should be able to highlight all 15 cells for each color at one time, and paste them into the spreadsheet. I know that this requires 6 copy and pastes, but is the only way I am able to do it right now. Just make sure to click the editable data box, then you can highlight and copy an entire color at one time.

It is all based on 100% Y stimulus. That is how the AVSHD disc is setup for the saturation scale measurements.

Dan
stereomandan is offline  
post #23 of 123 Old 01-29-2009, 08:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
angryht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 1,321
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Here's my data. Shouldn't I be able to change the reference values based on the primaries being off?

 

1-25-09 dE Chart.zip 363.6494140625k . file

-Greg
angryht is offline  
post #24 of 123 Old 01-29-2009, 08:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
angryht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 1,321
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

Right now the spreadsheet is purely based on the REC.709 reference locations. I'll see if I can allow custom 100% saturation points to be entered from accupel, and have the other reference locations(25%, 50%, 75%) adjust accordingly. Shouldn't be that hard, but will just take a little time.

Tom's article in Widescreen Review has the formulas. I may take a look at that.



Quote:
You should be able to highlight all 15 cells for each color at one time, and paste them into the spreadsheet. I know that this requires 6 copy and pastes, but is the only way I am able to do it right now. Just make sure to click the editable data box, then you can highlight and copy an entire color at one time.

Yep, that works but it only returns the values that are visible in each cell. It does not copy all of the significant figures. For that you need to do each cell individually. As an example, when I do the entire table I get 0.312 for a value. When I go into the table and highlight it the value is actually 0.312167. I'm not sure that makes much of a difference.

Quote:
It is all based on 100% Y stimulus. That is how the AVSHD disc is setup for the saturation scale measurements.

Got it. Thanks again.

-Greg
angryht is offline  
post #25 of 123 Old 01-29-2009, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
stereomandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,316
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by angryht View Post

Yep, that works but it only returns the values that are visible in each cell. It does not copy all of the significant figures. For that you need to do each cell individually. As an example, when I do the entire table I get 0.312 for a value. When I go into the table and highlight it the value is actually 0.312167. I'm not sure that makes much of a difference.

I think you've just run into an Excel formatting issue? All of the significant digits should be there no matter what. Try this. Copy all 15 cells at once into Excel. Then click on one of the cells in Excel and format the cell and tell it to show you more decimal places. The data should be there, it's just not showing.

When I copy and paste into my Excel file( a little updated than the one above), it shows 6 places past the decimal point, and I copy all 15 cells for each color at one time.

Dan
stereomandan is offline  
post #26 of 123 Old 01-29-2009, 10:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
angryht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 1,321
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

I think you've just run into an Excel formatting issue? All of the significant digits should be there no matter what. Try this. Copy all 15 cells at once into Excel. Then click on one of the cells in Excel and format the cell and tell it to show you more decimal places. The data should be there, it's just not showing.

When I copy and paste into my Excel file( a little updated than the one above), it shows 6 places past the decimal point, and I copy all 15 cells for each color at one time.

Dan

That's odd. Does the table in HCFR show all six places? I have to click on each value to expose all the sig figs.

-Greg
angryht is offline  
post #27 of 123 Old 01-29-2009, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
stereomandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,316
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
HCFR doesn't display all the digits, but when I copy and paste into Excel, they are there.

Dan
stereomandan is offline  
post #28 of 123 Old 01-29-2009, 11:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
angryht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 1,321
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

HCFR doesn't display all the digits, but when I copy and paste into Excel, they are there.

Dan

Weird. I guess I can't get it to work that way. I'm using excel 2003 and Windows XP. I tried to paste it into Notepad and got the same result (3 sig figs). Maybe it's an XP thing. What versions are you using?

-Greg
angryht is offline  
post #29 of 123 Old 01-29-2009, 12:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Mitchell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by angryht View Post

Weird. I guess I can't get it to work that way. I'm using excel 2003 and Windows XP. I tried to paste it into Notepad and got the same result (3 sig figs). Maybe it's an XP thing. What versions are you using?

It might also be an improvement in Microsoft Office. I'm seeing the behavior Dan describes, that I can copy-and-paste the entire table. I'm using Vista and Microsoft Office 2007.
Bill Mitchell is offline  
post #30 of 123 Old 01-29-2009, 12:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
angryht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 1,321
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post

It might also be an improvement in Microsoft Office. I'm seeing the behavior Dan describes, that I can cut-and-paste the entire table. I'm using Vista and Microsoft Office 2007.

That's interesting, Bill. I think I've got 2007 at the house. I'll try it. Thank you.

-Greg
angryht is offline  
Reply Display Calibration

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off