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post #1 of 50 Old 02-14-2009, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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I was told that D93 is the white point in Japan TV broadcast standard, we should calibrate TVs to D93 for watching Japan programs or satlelite broadcast. Is that true? They also give some xy coordinates for white point, primary color, and secondary color.

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post #2 of 50 Old 02-14-2009, 11:36 AM
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Who are "they," and can you provide a link to documentation of these assertions?
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post #3 of 50 Old 02-14-2009, 04:39 PM
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I've seen the same thing mentioned, but it is not easy to find an authoritative source on the web. I did find the following description in the description of various standard whites in an Appendix on page 88 of a Sony Display Monitor Catalog dated 2000:

"Standard light D93
The colour temperature of 9300 Kelvin. Off the blackbody
radiator curve. Accepted as broadcast standard white in
Japan."

Perhaps this means one might want to calibrate to this if one watched a lot of Japanese TV soap operas released on DVD.
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post #4 of 50 Old 02-14-2009, 05:47 PM
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I have heard this over the years but never found authoritative verification or documentation of the practice. It would be interesting to hear what Japan's purpose is for this methodology. This could explain why I read in the past that a certain LG TV's service manual instructed repair technicians to calibrate the set to 9300K when completing repair on the device. It would also explain why older Sony Trinitron TVs and Mitsubishi sets had such high color temperatures from the factory in US models, with the accompanying red push characteristic in their designs to compensate for flesh tones.
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post #5 of 50 Old 02-14-2009, 05:50 PM
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What standard defines a D93? I know of no such standard. It is true that many Japanese productions use lighting near a CCT of 9300K, but there is no standard relating to that color temperature. It is more of a tendency to use higher color temps to make asian skin tones appear more european.

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post #6 of 50 Old 02-15-2009, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

I have heard this over the years but never found authoritative verification or documentation of the practice.

The best I've ever found was a footnote in an ITU publication, IIRC. If one spoke/read Japanese, one could probably do the right research, but I lack this capability.

Edit: ITU BT.470 Table 2, Footnote 3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ITU BT.470 View Post

(3) In Japan, the chromaticity of studio monitors is adjusted to a D-white at 9 300 K.


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post #7 of 50 Old 02-15-2009, 10:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

What standard defines a D93? I know of no such standard. It is true that many Japanese productions use lighting near a CCT of 9300K, but there is no standard relating to that color temperature. It is more of a tendency to use higher color temps to make asian skin tones appear more european.

I suspect an assumption was made early on here regarding there being a "D"-in front of every color point on a CIE color triangle.

There is such a thing as "D-65", but no such thing as a "D-54"(for 5400 K) or "D-93". In fact, there are different letters for those points on the curve, a, b, c, or e, perhaps?
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post #8 of 50 Old 02-15-2009, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

Who are "they," and can you provide a link to documentation of these assertions?

They are talking D93 in a Chinese forum with some old Japanese documet scanned in jpg file . Because I don't know Japanese, I can't find more data to tell if it is not true. I don't think it is easier for you to read Japanese. But if you need the xy coordinates of white point and RGBCMY. I can provide that they say.
It is very rediculous that the secondariy colors are not at the intersections where the lines between primary colors and white points. So I don't think it is correct and want to collect to defense this.

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post #9 of 50 Old 02-15-2009, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-6500 View Post

I suspect an assumption was made early on here regarding there being a "D"-in front of every color point on a CIE color triangle.

There is such a thing as "D-65", but no such thing as a "D-54"(for 5400 K) or "D-93". In fact, there are different letters for those points on the curve, a, b, c, or e, perhaps?

Thanks. That thought came to me today, looking at an HCFR color chart, that the D relates to the definitions of Illuminate A through E.
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post #10 of 50 Old 02-15-2009, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

I have heard this over the years but never found authoritative verification or documentation of the practice. It would be interesting to hear what Japan's purpose is for this methodology. This could explain why I read in the past that a certain LG TV's service manual instructed repair technicians to calibrate the set to 9300K when completing repair on the device. It would also explain why older Sony Trinitron TVs and Mitsubishi sets had such high color temperatures from the factory in US models, with the accompanying red push characteristic in their designs to compensate for flesh tones.

I heard that LG story as well as Sony.
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post #11 of 50 Old 02-15-2009, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post

I've seen the same thing mentioned, but it is not easy to find an authoritative source on the web. I did find the following description in the description of various standard whites in an Appendix on page 88 of a Sony Display Monitor Catalog dated 2000:

"Standard light D93
The colour temperature of 9300 Kelvin. Off the blackbody
radiator curve. Accepted as broadcast standard white in
Japan."

Perhaps this means one might want to calibrate to this if one watched a lot of Japanese TV soap operas released on DVD.

I find that it claims D93 is for Japan on Page 92, so it may be true.
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post #12 of 50 Old 02-15-2009, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-6500 View Post

I suspect an assumption was made early on here regarding there being a "D"-in front of every color point on a CIE color triangle.

There is such a thing as "D-65", but no such thing as a "D-54"(for 5400 K) or "D-93". In fact, there are different letters for those points on the curve, a, b, c, or e, perhaps?

Not quite. There are different illuminants that relate to various letters, but the relate to the general SPD. The D series is just that -- a series. D54 would be a different SPD than illuminant E (which has equal power in x, y and z), though both approximate the same color temp.

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post #13 of 50 Old 02-15-2009, 12:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

Not quite. There are different illuminants that relate to various letters, but the relate to the general SPD. The D series is just that -- a series. D54 would be a different SPD than illuminant E (which has equal power in x, y and z), though both approximate the same color temp.

So 65 is not the only thing with a "D-" in front of it?

I stand corrected, but also confused.
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post #14 of 50 Old 02-15-2009, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by D-6500 View Post

So 65 is not the only thing with a "D-" in front of it?

I stand corrected, but also confused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_illuminant

Google and Wiki are great places to start. From there you can move on to the CIE or other organization's documents if you want primary sources. Be aware that wikis are not always correct, but if you watch the references you can get a better idea if they are likely good info.

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post #15 of 50 Old 02-15-2009, 04:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_illuminant

Google and Wiki are great places to start. From there you can move on to the CIE or other organization's documents if you want primary sources. Be aware that wikis are not always correct, but if you watch the references you can get a better idea if they are likely good info.

Cleared that up right away, lc!

Now we can rest assured that there is no such point as "D-93". Only a color temp of 9300K.

There's no such thing as "D-6500" either, but that corruption of the exact white point CCT and it's NAME came from my earlier days of not understanding the difference.

Alas there is no way on here to change my bloody handle, so I sign myself....
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post #16 of 50 Old 02-15-2009, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by D-6500 View Post

Now we can rest assured that there is no such point as "D-93". Only a color temp of 9300K.

There's no such thing as "D-6500" either, but that corruption of the exact white point CCT and it's NAME came from my earlier days of not understanding the difference.

D65 is a very real point, as is D93 and D75. If you want to see how the SPD changes based on illuminant series and target color temp, Bruce Lindbloom has a good calculator on his site:

http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index....alculator.html

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post #17 of 50 Old 02-15-2009, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by D-6500 View Post

Cleared that up right away, lc!

Now we can rest assured that there is no such point as "D-93". Only a color temp of 9300K.

There's no such thing as "D-6500" either, but that corruption of the exact white point CCT and it's NAME came from my earlier days of not understanding the difference.

Alas there is no way on here to change my bloody handle, so I sign myself....

I didn't read anything that said or indicated that there's no such thing as D93 - it simply wasn't listed as one of the "standard" cct's. If anything, the fact that the equations used to derive the temps for those CCTs are valid from 4K to 7K and then 7K to 25K means that D93 can easily be computed. Whether or not it's used for any practical applications - specifically Japanese TV - and why are the questions being asked here.

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Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

I didn't read anything that said or indicated that there's no such thing as D93 - it simply wasn't listed as one of the "standard" cct's. If anything, the fact that the equations used to derive the temps for those CCTs are valid from 4K to 7K and then 7K to 25K means that D93 can easily be computed. Whether or not it's used for any practical applications - specifically Japanese TV - and why are the questions being asked here.

I was simply suggesting that nowhere is the 9300K cct referred to as "D-93", at least not in the Wiki about it. Just as my own handle is a misnomer for the 6504K cct. You are, however, free to call it that if it makes matters easier for you.
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post #19 of 50 Old 02-15-2009, 07:57 PM
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While I have not ever seen a standard defining D93, the term does get tossed around by a few vendors and lots of users. I would presume it to simply refer to the location on a black body curve that corresponds to a CCT of 9300K. It may be useful to define it as such to avoid the ambiguity of color temperature and assume specific colorimetry, even though D93 is not a standard illuminant. In the past I have been a bit pedantic about references to standards and the use of color temperature references instead of specific points such as D65. In this case the use of the term D93 may not come from any standards but I don't see much ambiguity in what it should mean. I would still like to know if anyone has actually published it as a standard.

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Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

While I have not ever seen a standard defining D93, the term does get tossed around by a few vendors and lots of users. I would presume it to simply refer to the location on a black body curve that corresponds to a CCT of 9300K. It may be useful to define it as such to avoid the ambiguity of color temperature and assume specific colorimetry, even though D93 is not a standard illuminant.


Well it is a standard in Japan - the CCT of 9300K that is - but I doubt even the folks over there refer to it as "D-93". Just sayin.
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post #21 of 50 Old 02-15-2009, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by D-6500 View Post

Well it is a standard in Japan - the CCT of 9300K that is - but I doubt even the folks over there refer to it as "D-93". Just sayin.

I edited my post, above, with the reference in an ITU doc to 9300K. Since I've seen it written as D93 in many different places (just not in authoritative SMPTE or ITU publication), I think you are digging a hole for yourself...

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Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

I edited my post, above, with the reference in an ITU doc to 9300K. Since I've seen it written as D93 in many different places (just not in authoritative SMPTE or ITU publication), I think you are digging a hole for yourself...

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Well then so is everybody else in this thread!

I read that quote, and this part in particular: "...D-white at 9 300 K..." Sure doesn't look like the text "D-93" to these eyes! D93 simply is NOT an official term, and neither is my "D-6500" handle.

As I said in reply to another poster on here, call it "D-93", "DC-10", DZ-Rock FM 107 or whatever floats your boat, pal. I'm just trying to find out if there's away to change my abomination of a handle to a terminology that is correct, not one that I inadvertantly made up. Capiche?
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post #23 of 50 Old 02-16-2009, 12:24 AM
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Well, I just did a quick search for D93 on my computer, and ARIB TR-B28 User requirements for a flat panel display as master monitor in an hdtv programme production environment makes several references to it.

Here's a couple of quotes translated by Google:
Quote:


D65 is D, which is a light source and the color temperature of 6504K and 9305K color is D93

The temperature is used as the reference white of the monitor in Japan. Daylight is the D stands for self - Close to natural light.

Quote:


(White) Color Temperature Requirements

D65, D93 can display both.

The temperature does not change color when the signal level.


While it does not actually show D93, this image from Wikipedia shows why we use D65, D50 etc.



5000k, 6000k etc. are all lines on a CIE chart, rather than a specific point.

From what I understand, if you can calculate the SPD, you could really have D45, D80, D90, D100 etc. anything from D40 to D250. (4,000k to 25,000k)

E.g. any point on this curve is D something:

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post #24 of 50 Old 02-16-2009, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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I found D93 is mentioned in Charles Poynton's book, and he mentions it is Japanese standard. But it still look great when I am watching Japan satalte broadcasting program with D65. I am just wondering what it should look like. Japanese standard is really a mess.

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post #25 of 50 Old 02-16-2009, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-6500 View Post

I was simply suggesting that nowhere is the 9300K cct referred to as "D-93", at least not in the Wiki about it. Just as my own handle is a misnomer for the 6504K cct. You are, however, free to call it that if it makes matters easier for you.

The fact that the wiki doesn't mention D93 doesn't mean it's not an accepted term - the abbreviation Dxx is used to denote a cct defined in the D illuminant series.

If you're not speaking from a position of authoritative knowledge you should probably make it clear that you're posing opinion and not fact.

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post #26 of 50 Old 02-16-2009, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYC View Post

I found D93 is mentioned in Charles Poynton's book, and he mentions it is Japanese standard. But it still look great when I am watching Japan satalte broadcasting program with D65. I am just wondering what it should look like. Japanese standard is really a mess.

SYC

Where did you find D93 mentioned in Poynton's book? I know he discussed the use of 9300K and everything that he said is consistent with what I have been told by Japanese engineers. For someone who is so adamant about using terms properly, I would be very surprised if he would have referred to it as D93. This implies a D illuminant that is not CIE specified. As I said before, we can presume what it should mean, but until someone shows me the values from a published standard, I don't see the use in creating terms that imply a relationship to a standard. I made the same point regarding the slang term D6500K, and in fact, someone accussed me of going Poynton over the matter.

It seems to me that there is enough that is confusing about color that we don't need to be mucking up the terminology any more than we have to.

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I found D93 is mentioned in Charles Poynton's book, and he mentions it is Japanese standard.

Charles Poyntons book Digital Video and HDTV Algorithms and Interfaces does not state that D93 is used anyhwere! Poynton states on page 224 that "9300K is common in Asia (e.g., in studio monitors in Japan)." Also noted on p. 255 "Studio video standards in Japan call for viewing with a 9300 K White reference: this is apparently due to a cultural preference regarding the reproduction of skin tones".

Poynton's book lists on page 225 the coordinates for "9300 K (discouraged but used in studio standards in Japan)"

x= 0.283, y= 0.298, z = 0.419, U' = 0.1884, v' = .4463

I have also found that the 9300 K setting exists in many Sony professional broadcast monitors likely for this very reason.
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Originally Posted by ghibliss View Post

SYC


Charles Poyntons book Digital Video and HDTV Algorithms and Interfaces does not state that D93 is used anyhwere! Poynton states on page 224 that "9300K is common in Asia (e.g., in studio monitors in Japan)." Also noted on p. 255 "Studio video standards in Japan call for viewing with a 9300 K White reference: this is apparently due to a cultural preference regarding the reproduction of skin tones".

Poynton's book lists on page 225 the coordinates for "9300 K (discouraged but used in studio standards in Japan)"

x= 0.283, y= 0.298, z = 0.419, U' = 0.1884, v' = .4463

I have also found that the 9300 K setting exists in many Sony professional broadcast monitors likely for this very reason.

But NOWHERE IS IT REFERRED TO AS "D93"!!!!!! You people are just not getting it! Read the last item from lcaillo and get a clue(at least he and I can agree here).
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post #29 of 50 Old 02-17-2009, 05:15 PM
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Check out page two of this RIT paper entitled Accurate color reproduction of CRT-displayed images as projected 35-mm slides from the Journal of Electronic Imaging - starting on page 2 (and throughout the rest of the paper) they clearly reference D93 and D65, as well as their respective CIE XYZ coordinates.

Icallo certainly makes a good point that we shouldn't use the term unwittingly, assuming that it is CIE specified (or not), and I'll suggest conversely that we shouldn't dismiss it for lack of any authoritative supporting evidence yet. In that vein, I'm not saying the mention of D93 in the above paper is definite proof one way or the other, as it's certainly not a "standards" document. However the fact that the term is being used in academic materials on the subject of color indicates that it at least may be accepted nomenclature within some portion of the imaging community and that it warrants further exploration.

So, let's do a little more digging and research before emphatically stating how things are or are not one way or the other? I know it goes against certain people's "shoot first, ask questions later" style of littering the boards here, but since this is the AV Science Forum I think it's worth a try.

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post #30 of 50 Old 02-18-2009, 03:04 PM
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Quote:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ghibliss View Post
SYC


Charles Poyntons book Digital Video and HDTV Algorithms and Interfaces does not state that D93 is used anyhwere!
Poynton states on page 224 that "9300K is common in Asia (e.g., in studio monitors in Japan)." Also noted on p. 255 "Studio video standards in Japan call for viewing with a 9300 K White reference: this is apparently due to a cultural preference regarding the reproduction of skin tones".

Poynton's book lists on page 225 the coordinates for "9300 K (discouraged but used in studio standards in Japan)"

x= 0.283, y= 0.298, z = 0.419, U' = 0.1884, v' = .4463

I have also found that the 9300 K setting exists in many Sony professional broadcast monitors likely for this very reason.

D-6500
But NOWHERE IS IT REFERRED TO AS "D93"!!!!!! You people are just not getting it! Read the last item from lcaillo and get a clue(at least he and I can agree here).

Quote:


lcaillo

It seems to me that there is enough that is confusing about color that we don't need to be mucking up the terminology any more than we have to.

What is the problem that you have with the information posted earlier. I clearly stated Poynton does not mention D93 anywhere in his book and that he only mentions 9300 K. ICAILLO and I both are in agreement with you. Read more carefully and you might avoid making mistakes!

You might also want to change your name to D65 as there is no such thing as D-6500 LOL
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