Trying to calibrate with AVS HD 709 question.. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 03-10-2009, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm trying to calibrate the color and tint in the basic calibration section on my Mitsu WD 57731 DLP but I need to crank the color all the way to the top of it's adjustment (scale 0-60) to get it close to no flashing boxes. To get it to no flashing I need to use the DVDO Edge VP to tweak it a little more. Is this normal for a tv to exhibit this behavior? I can get the tint pretty close to no flashing but not perfect...
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post #2 of 18 Old 03-11-2009, 07:17 PM
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Are you using filters for the adjustment, and if so, what kind? If your set has a blue-only mode, that's the best way to go.

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post #3 of 18 Old 03-11-2009, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm using the filters or specifically the blue filter from the Avia calibration disc. I did test the blu-ray player that was used to calibrate without the Edge in the chain and noticed that the Edge changed the colors drastically. Without the Edge, the Tv color control only needs to be around 43 to get the color with the blue filter in line....With the Edge, the tv needs to be at least on 60 on the tv color control and a little more added at the Edge's color control. What is happening here?
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post #4 of 18 Old 03-11-2009, 09:52 PM
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I'd recheck the settings on the Edge. Are you feeding it via component or HDMI? If via component, it might be doing funky things with the colorspace, but that usually shows up most noticeably in green and red.

Another thought: if the Edge has separate gamma or luminance controls for each color, look and see if the blue channel is set lower than the other two.

If you are using firmware 1.1, try changing the "Output Colorspace" setting around and also the "Output Colorimetry" option. If all else fails, try resetting the Edge to factory defaults (after writing all your custom settings down first, of course).

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post #5 of 18 Old 03-12-2009, 02:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post

I'd recheck the settings on the Edge. Are you feeding it via component or HDMI? If via component, it might be doing funky things with the colorspace, but that usually shows up most noticeably in green and red.

Another thought: if the Edge has separate gamma or luminance controls for each color, look and see if the blue channel is set lower than the other two.

If you are using firmware 1.1, try changing the "Output Colorspace" setting around and also the "Output Colorimetry" option. If all else fails, try resetting the Edge to factory defaults (after writing all your custom settings down first, of course).

I am using hdmi and red is a little less saturated(5%) afterwards and green goes from being over saturated(7%) to off the under saturated scale...The colorimetry and colorspace are set to 'auto' which ends up as being an input of 422(bt601) and output of 444(bt709) when running AVS hd 709.
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post #6 of 18 Old 03-13-2009, 09:53 PM
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If your player is actually sending stuff from the AVS HD709 disc in the 601 colorspace, and it's being reported as such by the Edge, then that's an issue. But 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 are just color transmission schemes, and aren't colorspaces in themselves. AFAIK, one can send color info as 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 in both the Rec601 and Rec709 colorspaces.

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post #7 of 18 Old 03-14-2009, 03:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post

If your player is actually sending stuff from the AVS HD709 disc in the 601 colorspace, and it's being reported as such by the Edge, then that's an issue.

Well it looks like it is a known issue according to the AVS HD709 thread and hasn't been reported as a problem. This disc is burned as AVCHD.
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post #8 of 18 Old 03-14-2009, 09:00 AM
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If your player is sending the patterns from the AVS disc out as 601 when they are encoded as 709, it is likely making things harder for you. The player is twisting the disc's 709 colors to the 601 colorspace, and then the Edge is re-twisting them back to 709. This involves a lot of math and depending on the precision in each component, something may be lost or skewed a bit in the process.

I'll definitely take a look at that AVS HD thread. I wasn't aware that others were seeing the same thing you are. Out of curiosity, what is the Edge reporting as the input colorspace when you are viewing commercial Blu-Ray content?

I think your major issue, though, is your display's color decoder. As delivered, Mitsubishi sets have some really off-spec color decoders (we have a 46807 CRT RPTV, so I'm familiar with this). Even the Mits PerfectColor menus won't get you fully accurate color, but you can get close. The AVS disc thread mentions some PerfectColor settings from CNet for another Mits DLP, and those might get you in the ballpark.

IMHO, you have several obstacles here: the double colorspace conversion (may not be a big issue), filters which probably don't match your primaries, and an out-of-spec color decoder. But you can get there, or nearly so.

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post #9 of 18 Old 03-14-2009, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdamocles View Post

The colorimetry and colorspace are set to 'auto' which ends up as being an input of 422(bt601) and output of 444(bt709) when running AVS hd 709.

I have some questions:

What player are you using?

Personally I'm not sure the most recent Panasonic players are dealing correctly with the current AVCHD, but I don't have any good information one way or another to really speculate on.


If you play a commercial Blu-ray (BD-ROM), does the processor report differently? (709 input instead of 601?)
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post #10 of 18 Old 03-14-2009, 11:16 AM
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tdamocles -- You also need to turn off any "Auto" processing functions on your display. Some Mitsubishi sets have an "sRGB" color space set to "On", as default. This will prevent you from doing any correct color adjustments.

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post #11 of 18 Old 03-14-2009, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post

If your player is sending the patterns from the AVS disc out as 601 when they are encoded as 709, it is likely making things harder for you. The player is twisting the disc's 709 colors to the 601 colorspace, and then the Edge is re-twisting them back to 709. This involves a lot of math and depending on the precision in each component, something may be lost or skewed a bit in the process.

I'll definitely take a look at that AVS HD thread. I wasn't aware that others were seeing the same thing you are. Out of curiosity, what is the Edge reporting as the input colorspace when you are viewing commercial Blu-Ray content?

I just put the old firmware back into the Edge and than turned around and put the 1.1 firmware back in. Now the input is showing correctly (422(bt709)). I am using a sony Bdp-s350 blu-ray player and I can set the colorspace(422, 444, rgb(16-235), or rgb(0-255)). I set it to 422 and the input than displays 422(bt709).

Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I have some questions:

What player are you using?

Personally I'm not sure the most recent Panasonic players are dealing correctly with the current AVCHD, but I don't have any good information one way or another to really speculate on.


If you play a commercial Blu-ray (BD-ROM), does the processor report differently? (709 input instead of 601?)

Sony BDP-S350, it displays 709 with Blu-ray.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

tdamocles -- You also need to turn off any "Auto" processing functions on your display. Some Mitsubishi sets have an "sRGB" color space set to "On", as default. This will prevent you from doing any correct color adjustments.

The wd 57731 has no sRGB setting in the menu.
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post #12 of 18 Old 03-15-2009, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post

I think your major issue, though, is your display's color decoder. As delivered, Mitsubishi sets have some really off-spec color decoders (we have a 46807 CRT RPTV, so I'm familiar with this). Even the Mits PerfectColor menus won't get you fully accurate color, but you can get close. The AVS disc thread mentions some PerfectColor settings from CNet for another Mits DLP, and those might get you in the ballpark.

Rolls,
Are you saying that since the the tv's decoder is probably off spec that it is screwing up the Edge's color also?
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post #13 of 18 Old 03-15-2009, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdamocles View Post

Rolls,
Are you saying that since the the tv's decoder is probably off spec that it is screwing up the Edge's color also?

Yep. It's the final link in your video chain and produces the light your eyes see. You can have broadcast-quality gear all the way through, but if the display isn't correct, you won't get correct results.

I just thought of another thing that could be affecting your results: the age of your DLP's lamp. As you probably know, the light spectrum that lamps emit changes as they age. It may not be a factor: I'm not familiar with the Mits DLP model numbers, so don't know how old your set is, or whether it uses a lamp or LEDs.

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post #14 of 18 Old 03-15-2009, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post

I just thought of another thing that could be affecting your results: the age of your DLP's lamp. As you probably know, the light spectrum that lamps emit changes as they age. It may not be a factor: I'm not familiar with the Mits DLP model numbers, so don't know how old your set is, or whether it uses a lamp or LEDs.

Probably not an issue since I replaced it 6 months ago.
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post #15 of 18 Old 03-15-2009, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdamocles View Post

Sony BDP-S350, it displays 709 with Blu-ray.

Because AVCHD is reporting differently than Blu-ray, you wouldn't want to use the pattern. Below is the Basic Settings section from AVS HD 709 with the proposed encoding change from hwjohn for the flag in the video. The first link is .exe and the second is a .7z file. Try the linked AVCHD and see if Edge reports the same input as Blu-ray.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/d23x9o
http://www.sendspace.com/file/13cwae
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post #16 of 18 Old 03-15-2009, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Because AVCHD is reporting differently than Blu-ray, you wouldn't want to use the pattern. Below is the Basic Settings section from AVS HD 709 with the proposed encoding change from hwjohn for the flag in the video. The first link is .exe and the second is a .7z file. Try the linked AVCHD and see if Edge reports the same input as Blu-ray.

It is reporting it as an input bt709. The colors still change drastically when the Edge is present.
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post #17 of 18 Old 03-16-2009, 06:05 PM
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Both Blu-ray and AVCHD reporting as a 709 input would be the generally-expected behavior. You mentioned that you were using a color filter from Avia, so my question would be - does the Avia color pattern show the same behavior of the colors being different depending if the processor is used? Not being familiar with the video processor that would just be something that I would double-check in troubleshooting things, along with seeing if different settings on the device seemed to affect the results.
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post #18 of 18 Old 03-16-2009, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Both Blu-ray and AVCHD reporting as a 709 input would be the generally-expected behavior. You mentioned that you were using a color filter from Avia, so my question would be - does the Avia color pattern show the same behavior of the colors being different depending if the processor is used? Not being familiar with the video processor that would just be something that I would double-check in troubleshooting things, along with seeing if different settings on the device seemed to affect the results.

I have used DVE and AVIA and they all show the same characterictics in color change. I'm coming to the conclusion that it is the DVDO Edge VP which is changing something....Or the chain of devices which are fighting each other....
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