What is the best way for a 'dummy' to calibrate his new LCD TV - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 80 Old 03-23-2009, 01:45 PM
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Seems you took time out chris for that, you should take your own advice. I wouldn't recommend anyone listen to your advice either, in audio or video. Lets be honest, you think your little bookshelf surround sound speakers are better than full range floorstanders, and watch blurry black crush crt projector
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post #32 of 80 Old 03-24-2009, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

There might be extremely slight differences from model to model. But from my experience all models perform pretty close and are consistent.

And I will ask for the second time, what experience do you have with scientific equipment to back up that claim - or is it just what you think you perceive with your "calibrated eyes"?
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post #33 of 80 Old 03-24-2009, 10:50 AM
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Not only my experience but countless reviews also. A tv or projector that measures and has good color accuracy will usually perform as the reviews states. A tv or projector with noteable bad color accuracy the same. Now you can try to skew that and say the manufacturers calibrated them special for the reviews, but i don't buy it. Especially when many perform poor. But go ahead and listen to those who say all models of even the exact same kind perform differently. Do you have any 'claims' they all perform differently? Maybe with different sources is all i can imagine.
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post #34 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Not only my experience but countless reviews also. A tv or projector that measures and has good color accuracy will usually perform as the reviews states. A tv or projector with noteable bad color accuracy the same. Now you can try to skew that and say the manufacturers calibrated them special for the reviews, but i don't buy it. Especially when many perform poor. But go ahead and listen to those who say all models of even the exact same kind perform differently. Do you have any 'claims' they all perform differently? Maybe with different sources is all i can imagine.

Yes as can anyone that has measured multiple sets knows the differences are great - especially as the different light sources age.

As I monitor a large number of sets that are never turned off, a months worth of use can be accumulated in a week - and a years worth of use in just 3. The differences can happen quicker than one would expect, also depending on what part of the life cycle the set/light source is in.

As has been shown in the Bias Lighting Section, just because something measured D65 out of the box doesnt mean it will fall up to 1000K in less than 500 hours.

Furthermore, regardless of what you think (and its clear you have no knowledge of military or hospital grade equipment), the electronics components installed in most HDTVs today have large variances that has tolerances vs tolerances that all tend to add up.

Again, I continue to ask for the third time, please detail your
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Not only my experience but countless reviews also.

experience and how you can make the claims you do without scientific instruments as it has been proven that humans cannot detect changes until they hit a rather large threshold.
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post #35 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Not only my experience but countless reviews also. A tv or projector that measures and has good color accuracy will usually perform as the reviews states. A tv or projector with noteable bad color accuracy the same. Now you can try to skew that and say the manufacturers calibrated them special for the reviews, but i don't buy it. Especially when many perform poor. But go ahead and listen to those who say all models of even the exact same kind perform differently. Do you have any 'claims' they all perform differently? Maybe with different sources is all i can imagine.

"Countless reviews" provide measurements on ONE display. I have copied "review settings" to the same model display I have on hand and get readings as much as 25% different than the review. I have calibrated about 30 samples of a single 50" Samsung plasma panel model (50A550, a current model due to be replaced shortly). These have 7 gamma settings and I've measured 2.3 gamma with User Menu gamma settings of -2, -1, 0, and +1 on various displays so which one should the average A550 owner use? Gamma will be off by about 0.1 for each setting. So if you pick the "0" setting your Gamma could be 2.3, but it could also be 2.4, 2.2, or 2.1 - and for me those choices aren't "close enough"... 2.4 is clearly too high on these panels and 2.3 is a more 3-D looking than 2.2. 2.1 is clearly too bright for movies in a dark room. These Samsungs also have CMS controls and White Balance controls and the "agreement" between panels is almost zero. The service menus in these panels don't even have the same settings everywhere (and this is before being "tampered with" by the owner or calibrator).

Chances of copied settings being better than settings you arrive at using a test/setup disc are maybe 1-in-10 at the very best, 1-in-20 is more realistic.

On the other hand, Pioneer Kuro panels don't have much variation in comparison... first, they lack many controls the Samsung panels have so there are fewer settings to deal with, and they are (especially the Elites) closer to being "right" than "lesser" plasmas. And when you (as a calibrator) do make adjustments, the adjustments tend to be fairly small. But STILL you don't make the same adjustments to every Kuro panel - even though the range of adjustment settings may be small, there's still a range and using the settings from some other panel isn't likely to be the best settings for another panel. I wish they were, I could calibrate a Kuro a lot faster if I didn't have to find the right settings for each panel.

You are wishing for something that is not true based on real measurements of real video displays.

Furthermore... not long ago, I calibrated a $15,000 Marantz projector with a $5000 Lumagen video processor and a motorized anamorphic lens with a 2.35:1 Stewart screen. They had been mail ordered from AVScience... the people who operate this forum. The projector and processor were calibrated together before they were shipped to the customer who had everything installed and was initially happy. I got called to calibrate the setup and was expecting a "touch-up" sort of calibration since the pair had already been calibrated before being shipped. What I got was quite large errors in grayscale, gamma, and color - as if no calibrating had ever been done. Did AVScience NOT calibrate the setup? No, I'm sure they did, there were settings changed in both the projector and Lumagen processor and I'm sure they got a good result. But 500 hours on the lamp and being setup in this specific room with this specific carpet, ceiling, walls with this specific screen, anamorphic lens, and these sources all conspired to make the CURRENT measured results VERY different that what AVScience achieved. The end result was spectacular on-site calibration. In another 500 hours, just the changes the lamp goes through will produce different measurements and different Lumagen settings. When the lamp is changed, everything CAN and often DOES change because lamps don't have consistent spectra from sample to sample. I used to work on high-end imaging systems and we had to test every lamp after a 50-hour burn-in for light spectra and 50% of the lamps were rejected. We started with $500 lamps and had to charge $2000 for them because of the testing and high numbers of unusable lamps.

You are dreaming if you think products built with components that have tolerances of +/-10% to +/-20% (mil spec components are NOT used in consumer video products) will be able to share settings with any reliability or even any improvement.

That said... yes, you can get some valuable info from various video display threads here... especially if someone has correctly evaluated the "junk" settings and made appropriate recommendations. But everything else (contrast, brightness, color, CMS, white balance) is just a guess because of equipment used for the measurements and the displays themselves. If someone properly analyzes the effects of the Sharpness control... that is one setting that can be reliably shared from display to display. Black Level is another that can be reliably shared (if everybody is using 16-235). But there aren't many like that.

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post #36 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 11:16 AM
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Doug,

Thanks for the detailed, illuminating and persuasive response. Fortunately, such effort won't be completely wasted on the author of the post you were responding to. He has heard this all many times before, has refused to learn from expert testimony, and will likely reject your contribution as well. His posts appear to be chronically detached from rational thought. I'll link to this post of yours in the "Sharing Display Menu Settings?" sticky thread.

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post #37 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 12:13 PM
 
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I also second what Doug said. And what george said too, unfortunately...
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post #38 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 12:15 PM
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I never said copying exact settings the result would be perfectly calibrated for every panel. Just that you can have a great picture by choosing the correct picture mode, like sony warm, pioneer pure, and recommended brightness and contrast settings. Sure i will agree if you are talking white balance and cms adjustments. As you would be fine tuneing that extra 5% or so a pro calibrator would extract. My point is you can get 95% there just choosing correct modes, and brightness and contrast settings, which most people would be 100% happy with.
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post #39 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I never said copying exact settings the result would be perfectly calibrated for every panel. Just that you can have a great picture by choosing the correct picture mode, like sony warm, pioneer pure, and recommended brightness and contrast settings. Sure i will agree if you are talking white balance and cms adjustments. As you would be fine tuneing that extra 5% or so a pro calibrator would extract. My point is you can get 95% there just choosing correct modes, and brightness and contrast settings, which most people would be 100% happy with.

The mode thing (warm, pure, movie, ect.. by brand) is deffinetly an honest contribution.

Brightness and contrast settings should still be set by using a calibration disc even if it's just the THX menu from a pixar/lucasfilm disc, doing that in the native enviroment for the display is going to likely be more accurate than copy some one elses settings.

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post #40 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 01:53 PM
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Earth to Zues........this is the 'Display Calibration' section of the forum! The relatively small percentage of video consumers that come here want to learn about calibrating their display, not how to avoid doing so. Copying other people's settings is not calibration. Your insistence on promoting yourself and alternatives to calibration belong in an alternative context other than this section of the forum.
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post #41 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 08:26 PM
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Well there IS alternatives to anyone who comes in here for help to just tell them they need professional calibration. I mean take the op of this thread for example, the poor guy probably just needs a contrast adjustment, or maybe a new tv as lcd's are extremely bright-sharp displays, and the only advice from pro calibrators is to get pro calibration. Talk about promoting.
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post #42 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I mean take the op of this thread for example, the poor guy probably just needs a contrast adjustment, or maybe a new tv as lcd's are extremely bright-sharp displays, and the only advice from pro calibrators is to get pro calibration. Talk about promoting.

No, it wasn't.

This was the first post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

Start with 'Avia II: Guide To Home Theater' if you only have a standard DVD player. If you have an HD DVD or Blu-ray player, get 'Digital Video Essentials: HD Basics.' Those will get you started with a foundation via narrated tutorials and basic test patterns. After that, you can consider going deeper yourself or hiring a pro.

The first advice was to go buy a disc that has accurate patterns that you can use to optically (with your eye) calibrate the display.

That is the de facto, go to, advice in this forum.

Use a disc.

If that's not good enough then either buy a probe or hire somebody.

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post #43 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 09:20 PM
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If the source isn't accurate, you are simply using an inaccurate "reference". For example... if you go to 5 websites and download their image of a Blu-ray disc cover shot (the same title from every site), then put them side by side, they will very likely all be completely different (unless they were copied from the same source file). One may be dark with little shadow detail, another may be quite light with much more shadow detail, a third may be too blue, the forth could be undersaturated, and the fifth could have too much yellow. Which one should be your reference? Unless you are holding an original Blu-ray in your hand to use as a comparison, anything you download from an online source is HIGHLY suspect - it could be MUCH too bright, MUCH too saturated (or undersaturated), etc. etc. - the online image, in fact, has little chance of representing the image the director and cinematographer intended you to see. So using it as any sort of comparison is really no help.

Erm, maybe I'm not being clear. What I display on the television is the actual blu-ray disc on pause. What I display on the computer monitor is the same blu-ray still image from a review site such as blu-ray.com. I realize this is not a scientific comparison and there are some variables, but it's a quick and dirty way to see if your television is even in the ballpark. It helped me realize how much detail in the shadows and highlights I was missing with the torch mode that my television originally came in. Before viewing the same frame on a computer screen void of image "enhancers", I was naive and thought dynamic mode and black adjust both set to high looked good.

I realize this is not "calibration", but it helps a dummy get the picture at least in the ballpark, and at no cost.

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post #44 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

No, it wasn't.

This was the first post:


The first advice was to go buy a disc that has accurate patterns that you can use to optically (with your eye) calibrate the display.

That is the de facto, go to, advice in this forum.

Use a disc.

If that's not good enough then either buy a probe or hire somebody.


Seems you overlooked a couple posts from beachcomber and leeG.
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post #45 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

Erm, maybe I'm not being clear. What I display on the television is the actual blu-ray disc on pause. What I display on the computer monitor is the same blu-ray still image from a review site such as blu-ray.com. I realize this is not a scientific comparison and there are some variables, but it's a quick and dirty way to see if your television is even in the ballpark. It helped me realize how much detail in the shadows and highlights I was missing with the torch mode that my television originally came in. Before viewing the same frame on a computer screen void of image "enhancers", I was naive and thought dynamic mode and black adjust both set to high looked good.

I realize this is not "calibration", but it helps a dummy get the picture at least in the ballpark, and at no cost.

That's a really bad way to do it, you know why?

Because your computer monitor could be just as far off as your TV, which one is right?

You've got two monitors neither of them is a reference.

Take the advice of the very first post, go out and spend the $20-$30 to pick up DVE-HD Basics and use that to calibrate, it's the best you can do with spending at least 5-10x as much.

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post #46 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Seems you overlooked a couple posts from beachcomber and leeG.

They chimed in, but they were not the first reply.

Also beachcombers comment was very tongue in cheek. If you've got an IQ of 65, you probably should hire a pro all that xyY stuff is likely to just get you confused.

Lee's response is also extremely valid, spending 4 hours with a pro listening and learning from them is probably worth 2 months of being on the forum, plus you'll get a calibration w/ equipment that is more accurate them most people would be willing to buy.

Neither of them are wrong per se and I think their comments coming after the initial buy a disc comment imply their advice was additive.

buy a disc,
but if you really aren't bright hire someone,
Also if you want to learn alot and get a good calibration hiring someone is very valuable.

Not bad advice really.
Using someone elses settings on the other hand produces results that are no more accurate than the original picture (As far as brightness/contrast/color/tint/cms goes).

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post #47 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 09:51 PM
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Have you ever tried reasoning with a tree stump?
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post #48 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 09:51 PM
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Sotti, did you ever think that a cd or a professional might still leave color oversaturated as far as color settings? I know there are standards, but how many displays are left at 0 color or even raised, and the vast majority of content results in oversaturated images? This is really my gripe with doing everything to standards and not using your own judgement. The vast majority of peoples screens that use cd's or even so called isf images look terribly oversaturated.
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post #49 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 09:53 PM
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Have you ever tried reasoning with a tree stump?

No, this is why i try to avoid conversation with you.
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post #50 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 10:23 PM
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Zues~

Why we have to revisit this time and time again, I do not know. Maybe you just have that many screws loose - you've certainly demonstrated a lack of ability to learn.

You've admitted that 1) you think calibration is a complete sham, and 2) you know nothing about calibration.

So what are you doing in the Calibration forum, in a thread about learning how to calibrate? Aside from stirring up trouble and trolling, I can't think of a legitimate reason. Contribute something positive and related or leave.

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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post #51 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Sotti, did you ever think that a cd or a professional might still leave color oversaturated as far as color settings? I know there are standards, but how many displays are left at 0 color or even raised, and the vast majority of content results in oversaturated images? This is really my gripe with doing everything to standards and not using your own judgement. The vast majority of peoples screens that use cd's or even so called isf images look terribly oversaturated.

Well obviously you don't like a calibrated image, so you probably shouldn't come here.

Personally I've never calibrated a TV with a CD before, audio doesn't really have anything to do with picture quality, so I can see how using a CD to calibrate your display could leave colors over saturated, but when I've used a DVD they've always looked pretty good.

Then when you take it a step further and equip a competent calibrator with a high quality colorimeter or a spectrophotometer chances are if you think the colors are over saturated it's a you problem.

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post #52 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Well obviously you don't like a calibrated image, so you probably shouldn't come here.

Personally I've never calibrated a TV with a CD before.


Ok, let me guess, you have had all your displays professionaly calibrated. Right?
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post #53 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

Zues~

Why we have to revisit this time and time again, I do not know


Yeah, i don't know why you continue to stalk me. If you have nothing to add except i don't know what i'm talking about then don't keep ALWAYS responding. It's not my problem you will never learn about what a correct image looks like, and have zero confidence in any of your own ability. And your results are nothing more than what a geek squad kid can do.
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post #54 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Then when you take it a step further and equip a competent calibrator with a high quality colorimeter or a spectrophotometer chances are if you think the colors are over saturated it's a you problem.

No, because i don't need a colorimeter to tell me, i know. That's the difference. No more of a difference than knowing where your perfect brightness setting should be at. Unfortunately setting color intensity is not as accurate.
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post #55 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Ok, let me guess, you have had all your displays professionaly calibrated. Right?

No but I have a chroma5 and calman, so I do have a really good idea of what my saturation should look like.

I went the incremental, learn it my self and end up spending 2-3 times as much as if I just paid some one once. But in the process I have found what reference looks like and verified it against the specifications the engineers who master our content use.

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post #56 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 11:06 PM
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No, because i don't need a colorimeter to tell me, i know. That's the difference.

Then it's just a subjective opinion without fact or merit.

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post #57 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 11:08 PM
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Then it's just a subjective opinion without fact or merit.


Just like the opinion carmen electra is a good looking women?
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post #58 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 11:10 PM
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No but I have a chroma5 and calman, so I do have a really good idea of what my saturation should look like.


Not really, since you are trusting your equipment 100%.
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Just like the opinion carmen electra is a good looking women?

dude she's seriously busted, getting old, getting fake and I wouldn't touch her with a 10ft pole at this point.

Maybe back before she started dating prince.

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post #60 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
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Not really, since you are trusting your equipment 100%.

Do you have a good reason why you shouldn't trust a brand new factory calibrated piece of equipment?

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