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Display Calibration > The Official ChromaPure thread
TomHuffman's Avatar TomHuffman 07:11 PM 07-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

But the CEDIA expo is Sept 23-25, isn't it?

The tradeshow is from the 23-26. The THX class begins on the last day of the show.

millerwill's Avatar millerwill 07:13 PM 07-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The tradeshow is from the 23-26. The THX class begins on the last day of the show.

Arg! I will only be there Friday, and will thus miss you; shame.
stash64's Avatar stash64 07:59 PM 07-26-2010
Just discovered what I think is a fantastic price at Amazon for the Eye-One Beamer (i1 Pro with projector accessories)... $523 and free shipping to boot. It even includes the Match software for monitor profiling. Looks like there are only two more left, so hurry.

I guess I will be purchasing another ChromaPure license, or another two licenses and the Chroma5.
gtgray's Avatar gtgray 08:37 PM 07-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

Just discovered what I think is a fantastic price at Amazon for the Eye-One Beamer (i1 Pro with projector accessories)... $523 and free shipping to boot. It even includes the Match software for monitor profiling. Looks like there are only two more left, so hurry.

I guess I will be purchasing another ChromaPure license, or another two licences and the Chroma5.

I was too late
stash64's Avatar stash64 08:32 AM 07-27-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I was too late

Wow... gone in half an hour. That was fast. I guess maybe it was a good deal. Hope they will get put to use by current or future ChromaPure users.
Baenwort's Avatar Baenwort 09:33 AM 07-28-2010
I currently have a ColoMunki photo that I'm I'm happy with. I've been reading around and want to get the Display 2 so that I can do faster calibrations when I get my projection setup back together. For now I'm just using it on my monitor.

My question is if I buy a Display 2 and Chromapure bundle now will I need to add another license or pay any extra to use my ColorMunki with Chromapure when support is added?
TomHuffman's Avatar TomHuffman 12:12 PM 07-28-2010
Support for one meter is included in the purchase price. If you want to add more meters, it is $100 for each additional license.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baenwort View Post

I currently have a ColoMunki photo that I'm I'm happy with. I've been reading around and want to get the Display 2 so that I can do faster calibrations when I get my projection setup back together. For now I'm just using it on my monitor.

My question is if I buy a Display 2 and Chromapure bundle now will I need to add another license or pay any extra to use my ColorMunki with Chromapure when support is added?


bodosom's Avatar bodosom 01:00 PM 07-28-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baenwort View Post

I currently have a ColoMunki photo that I'm I'm happy with. I've been reading around and want to get the Display 2 so that I can do faster calibrations

In my experience the ColorMunki spectrophotometers are faster (overall) than an i1 Display.

Just an FYI based on my limited experience.
millerwill's Avatar millerwill 02:28 PM 08-01-2010
Tom, It seems like the Demo's on the CP website haven't yet been updated to reflect the 1.3.1 software; is there any plan to do so? I mention this since the demos were enormously valuable to me (and other novices, I'm sure). And even though I'm much more comfortable with CP now, I was at first a bit confused by the 'initialization of the meters' on the new 1.3.1 SW; I was still thinking of the old 1.2.1 protocol.
stash64's Avatar stash64 08:58 AM 08-04-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

In my experience the ColorMunki spectrophotometers are faster (overall) than an i1 Display.

Just an FYI based on my limited experience.

The i1 Pro is definitely faster. I have both the Display2 and i1 Pro.
stash64's Avatar stash64 09:07 AM 08-04-2010
Just want to send Kudos to Tom. Love the software... works as advertised. And my TV has never looked better. The i1 Display2 I sent in to Tom for upgrade to "Pro" required some big corrections (per Tom). I suspected something was wrong with the meter all along and I was never happy with the calibration results. The difference using the corrected Display2 was very obvious.

In addition, I recently purchased an i1 Pro (at a very good price) which I subsequently licensed for ChromaPure. I spent some time using the i1 Pro and found that its color performance was very very close to my Display2 Pro. Just shows again that it is worthwhile to go the "Pro" route with any colorimeters to be used with ChromaPure.
millerwill's Avatar millerwill 09:47 AM 08-04-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

The i1 Pro is definitely faster. I have both the Display2 and i1 Pro.

The I1Pro is faster than what? The ColorMunki? Surely you don't mean faster than the Display2.
millerwill's Avatar millerwill 10:04 AM 08-04-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

Just want to send Kudos to Tom. Love the software... works as advertised. And my TV has never looked better. The i1 Display2 I sent in to Tom for upgrade to "Pro" required some big corrections (per Tom). I suspected something was wrong with the meter all along and I was never happy with the calibration results. The difference using the corrected Display2 was very obvious.

In addition, I recently purchased an i1 Pro (at a very good price) which I subsequently licensed for ChromaPure. I spent some time using the i1 Pro and found that its color performance was very very close to my Display2 Pro. Just shows again that it is worthwhile to go the "Pro" route with any colorimeters to be used with ChromaPure.

Thanks for this report, Stash; very interesting results.

It raises a question that you can't reply to, since your Display2 has now been upgraded to Pro status, but maybe Tom can: If one uses the 'offset' procedure in ChromaPure to calibrate a regular Display2 to an I1Pro, will the Display2 then yield as accurate results as a Display2 that has been 'Pro'ed' by Tom?
TomHuffman's Avatar TomHuffman 04:01 PM 08-04-2010
A good question. Yes and No.

Yes, in that your own offsets will be based on the exact display you are calibrating. This is ideal. The offsets the PRO option offers are based on a display type only. This is only a reasonable approximation.

No, in that the PRO option is based on offsets that were created from a reference instrument, which the i1Pro is not.

The bottom line is that it all depends upon how closely your display's profile matches the display used for the PRO offset.

BTW, Stash's experience is a living example of what the PRO option can do. The D2 he sent me was a mess--one of the worst measuring colorimeters I have ever run across (much worse than the average Display 2). After the PRO upgrade it measures similarly to his i1Pro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Thanks for this report, Stash; very interesting results.

It raises a question that you can't reply to, since your Display2 has now been upgraded to Pro status, but maybe Tom can: If one uses the 'offset' procedure in ChromaPure to calibrate a regular Display2 to an I1Pro, will the Display2 then yield as accurate results as a Display2 that has been 'Pro'ed' by Tom?


millerwill's Avatar millerwill 04:40 PM 08-04-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

A good question. Yes and No.

Yes, in that your own offsets will be based on the exact display you are calibrating. This is ideal. The offsets the PRO option offers are based on a display type only. This is only a reasonable approximation.

No, in that the PRO option is based on offsets that were created from a reference instrument, which the i1Pro is not.

The bottom line is that it all depends upon how closely your display's profile matches the display used for the PRO offset.

BTW, Stash's experience is a living example of what the PRO option can do. The D2 he sent me was a mess--one of the worst measuring colorimeters I have ever run across (much worse than the average Display 2). After the PRO upgrade it measures similarly to his i1Pro.

Thanks, Tom; I get it. What one 'really' needs is the 'reference instrument' in one's own room, showing off one's on screen (an HP in my case), etc. This is UNfortunately beyond what most of us will be able to do.
Geof's Avatar Geof 04:51 PM 08-04-2010
I think you mean unfortunately...

Good to hear the positive experience regarding the Pro option......I'm going to get my C5 upgraded one of these days.....
millerwill's Avatar millerwill 05:50 PM 08-04-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I think you mean unfortunately...

Good to hear the positive experience regarding the Pro option......I'm going to get my C5 upgraded one of these days.....

Yes, thanks Geof; i'll correct it. It's amazing how I misstype more frequently as my 70th b-day is beginning to approach!
dpjb's Avatar dpjb 11:31 PM 08-08-2010
I recently got Chromapure and licensed it for my Display2 Lt which is at least 2 years old. I'm debating getting the old one recalibrated/Pro'd or purchasing a new one.

My Display2 will often vary wildly from reading to reading (thank you for measurement smoothing!). I was wondering if this is typical of these meters, or if mine is a little quirky. I use it on plasmas.

By the way, I love the software. It is easier to use than ColorHCFR. If only I could get ControlCal to make the Panasonic ISFccc feature widely available so I could tweak my 54VT25 without constantly going into and out of service mode, I'd be a happy camper.
stash64's Avatar stash64 08:37 AM 08-09-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpjb View Post

I recently got Chromapure and licensed it for my Display2 Lt which is at least 2 years old. I'm debating getting the old one recalibrated/Pro'd or purchasing a new one.

My Display2 will often vary wildly from reading to reading (thank you for measurement smoothing!). I was wondering if this is typical of these meters, or if mine is a little quirky. I use it on plasmas.

By the way, I love the software. It is easier to use than ColorHCFR. If only I could get ControlCal to make the Panasonic ISFccc feature widely available so I could tweak my 54VT25 without constantly going into and out of service mode, I'd be a happy camper.

The only good reason for purchasing a new meter is if you intend to also use it for monitor calibrations and you suspect your current meter is off... which well could be the case on a 2-year old meter. My meter was not even 2 years old but required some big corrections. It now works fine with ChromaPure but is crap for monitor calibrations using X-Rite's Match software. Either way, I would still get the Pro option. It is the only way to be reasonably certain that all your calibration efforts aren't in vain.
kal's Avatar kal 08:44 AM 08-09-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

The only good reason for purchasing a new meter is if you intend to also use it for monitor calibrations and you suspect your current meter is off... which well could be the case on a 2-year old meter. My meter was not even 2 years old but required some big corrections. It now works fine with ChromaPure but is crap for monitor calibrations using X-Rite's Match software. Either way, I would still get the Pro option. It is the only way to be reasonably certain that all your calibration efforts aren't in vain.

Agreed. It used to be that the only option for those who wanted to remain accurate with lower end meters was to buy a new meter every year and toss the old one. Not only does that cost more but it isn't exactly friendly to the landfills. It's far more economical to simply get the existing colorimeter recalibrated every year. It's less than $100 and includes return shipping from Tom. You'll also get a report as to how far off it was too.

Kal
stash64's Avatar stash64 12:00 PM 08-09-2010
All good points, Kal.

It would also be interesting to see how far the meter drifts over time based on Tom's corrections, and whether it is linear or more exponential. If the corrections start to become very large and non-linear in the wrong direction, it is probably time to get a new meter anyway.
kal's Avatar kal 03:42 PM 08-09-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

All good points, Kal.

It would also be interesting to see how far the meter drifts over time based on Tom's corrections, and whether it is linear or more exponential. If the corrections start to become very large and non-linear in the wrong direction, it is probably time to get a new meter anyway.

True. That's the one good thing about Tom providing the information on the amount of correction required. He'll let you know if he thinks you're starting to hit the limits of what's possible. You can create offsets for pretty far off meters though which should give you many, many years of accurate readings before any replacement is required.

Tom's got a really good article on meter accuracy that I think is a must-read for anyone looking to calibration themselves.

See here: Colour Science: About Meter Accuracy

There's so much talk about meters being "accurate" or "not accurate" which is (well) just plain silly as not black and white. A Display 2/LT is actually a pretty good meter when you consider what it costs. Get it re-calibrated every year and you've got something that will serve most people fairly well.

To quote:
Quote:


An i1Pro or a Chroma 5 will of course have lower errors than the Display 2. They also cost significantly more. So the question is not so much one of accuracy, but rather "What you are willing to pay for?" Are you satisfied paying $200 for a meter that removes 80% of the errors or would your rather pay 2-3 times more to remove 90% of the errors? Of course, if you invest in a professional quality tool you can remove 95%-99% of the visible errors.

Like most things in life, it's all about the law of dimishing returns.

Kal
youngryu's Avatar youngryu 11:20 PM 08-09-2010
just sent tom 2 meters and cant wait for them to come back.
PE06MCG's Avatar PE06MCG 02:49 AM 08-11-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

Agreed. It used to be that the only option for those who wanted to remain accurate with lower end meters was to buy a new meter every year and toss the old one. Not only does that cost more but it isn't exactly friendly to the landfills. It's far more economical to simply get the existing colorimeter recalibrated every year. It's less than $100 and includes return shipping from Tom. You'll also get a report as to how far off it was too.

Kal

How accurate does a meter need to be for TV calibration?

Are all displays so constant in all outputs that need to be measured that a super accurate meter gives better results than say a Display 2Lt?

If as I suspect there is more variation on most displays depending on where, when and how one measures the TV output that perhaps a little 'damping' of the results is not a bad thing?

Obviously consistantly incorrect reporting by the meter needs addressing but getting a correct 'average' reading is all that is needed if the TV does not give a consistant invariable output?

Apologies if my comments are technically innacurate but my amateur calibration experiences (with Chromapure of course) prompt the post.
kal's Avatar kal 06:56 AM 08-11-2010
Hi!

Sorry, I don't really follow exactly what you're asking but can offer some general comments:

All displays drift over time, some more than others. Bulbs in digital units tend to drift the most, CRT based displays tend to drift the least. This is why calibration needs to be performed periodically. It's not a "one time thing".

Different inputs on displays may produce different results, different sources may also produce different results. This is why it's important to calibrate with everything you will use in the signal chain whenever possible.

Different meters produce different levels of accuracy. It's all about what you're willing to accept. Do you want a meter that's 80% accurate? 95%? 99%?

And because you asked: A super-accurate meter will give you more accurate results than one that is not super-accurate. How much that difference is seen depends on your setup and how much you care.

Kal
PE06MCG's Avatar PE06MCG 07:22 AM 08-11-2010
Apologies for lack of clarity.

Perhaps I should ask how uniform and constant are the measurable outputs from various types of display?
kal's Avatar kal 07:34 AM 08-11-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Apologies for lack of clarity.

Perhaps I should ask how uniform and constant are the measurable outputs from various types of display?

Over what period of time? Over months they will change. Over a few minutes displays themselves should be very constant as to what they output but diffferent meters will produce results that jump around. This is obvious by simply putting up a pattern and taking continuous readings. Some of the lower end meters will "jump around" more than others.

Kal
PE06MCG's Avatar PE06MCG 07:47 AM 08-11-2010
My Display Lt is excellent regarding giving me constant readings if I ensure it is central on my LCD TV (a pattern ensures this) even at low IRE's.

I assumed apparently incorrectly that any 'jumping around' would happen when using a more accurate instrument because the output would not be as constant as you claim.
TomHuffman's Avatar TomHuffman 11:47 AM 08-11-2010
You are confusing accuracy with repeatability. A meter can provide a very consistent and repeatable series of inaccurate readings.

As to your original question about how accurate it needs to be. . ., as I tried to point out in my article it is all a matter of tolerances. What level of inaccuracy are you willing to live with at what price point? There is no one answer to this.

BTW, even inexpensive meters such as the D2 can be remarkably accurate when new. The problem is that they drift over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

My Display Lt is excellent regarding giving me constant readings if I ensure it is central on my LCD TV (a pattern ensures this) even at low IRE's.

I assumed apparently incorrectly that any 'jumping around' would happen when using a more accurate instrument because the output would not be as constant as you claim.


millerwill's Avatar millerwill 12:00 PM 08-11-2010
Tom, Is there any 'rule of thumb' about how often an I1Pro needs recalibrating?
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