The Official ChromaPure thread - Page 186 - AVS Forum
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post #5551 of 5750 Old 07-25-2014, 04:03 PM
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Tom,
On the Accupel 5000 signal generator, does the 100 and 75 in the "Color 100 Group" and "Color 75 group" refers to stimulus or saturation?

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post #5552 of 5750 Old 07-25-2014, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Tom,
On the Accupel 5000 signal generator, does the 100 and 75 in the "Color 100 Group" and "Color 75 group" refers to stimulus or saturation?
Stimulus.

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post #5553 of 5750 Old 07-30-2014, 07:20 AM
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CMS question

I am learning chromapure and I have 2 lcd tv's that I am using. One is a Sharp and the other is a LG. They both have a CMS but they only have adjustments for hue and saturation. The have no lightness adjustment. How and can I use the color management to adjust these sets?

Thanks
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post #5554 of 5750 Old 07-30-2014, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hollisavrct View Post
I am learning chromapure and I have 2 lcd tv's that I am using. One is a Sharp and the other is a LG. They both have a CMS but they only have adjustments for hue and saturation. The have no lightness adjustment. How and can I use the color management to adjust these sets?
You make do with what's provided. You can't make an adjustment if the control is not there.

Sometimes the main Color control can be used as a crude lightness adjustment.

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post #5555 of 5750 Old 07-30-2014, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hollisavrct View Post
I am learning chromapure and I have 2 lcd tv's that I am using. One is a Sharp and the other is a LG. They both have a CMS but they only have adjustments for hue and saturation. The have no lightness adjustment. How and can I use the color management to adjust these sets?

Thanks
hollisavrct

Hi, LG's individual R,G,B,C,M,Y Color Controls in Expert Settings is controlling saturation and lightness of each color the same time, from one control.
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post #5556 of 5750 Old 08-02-2014, 06:23 PM
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Are we going to need any Updates for our Accupel 5000's to use it on our 4K Displays ? I would assume it would be the same or maybe some sorta firmware Update.
I mean we are going to be fine with our accupel's aren't we Tom ? The reason I ask is there is already a thread on the DVDO 4K test pattern generator.

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post #5557 of 5750 Old 08-02-2014, 08:32 PM
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AccuPel on 4K Displays

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenee View Post
Are we going to need any Updates for our Accupel 5000's to use it on our 4K Displays ? I would assume it would be the same or maybe some sorta firmware Update.
I mean we are going to be fine with our accupel's aren't we Tom ? The reason I ask is there is already a thread on the DVDO 4K test pattern generator.
Good question. All of the test patterns on the AccuPel are just fine for a 4K display with one, perhaps two, exceptions.

The one test pattern that will not work properly on the AccuPel--or ANY 2K generator--when used with a 4K display is the multiburst. The sole point of the multiburst is to test the display's ability to render its full specified resolution. It is particularly useful for distinguishing pixel-for-pixel display modes from scaling modes. However, to do this on a 4K display you need a native 4K test pattern, which the AccuPel will not provide.

The other problem may arise with the crosshatch. The crosshatch was particularly useful on older analog displays for testing geometry issues. Digital flat panels and projectors pretty much eliminated geometry problems. Another use for a crosshatch is to ensure proper zoom and convergence settings on a front projector. The AccuPel will be fine here also on 4K displays. The display will just scale the crosshatch to the correct size.

However, there is another use of the crosshatch that might pose a problem on 4K displays. It is useful to display a crosshatch on front projectors to see how cleanly it renders each individual pixel. If you stand very close to the screen when a crosshatch is displayed you should be able to visually make-out each individual pixel. On a 4K display this now becomes more difficult not just because the display will have to scale the crosshatch, but also because the pixels are now so much smaller that they are much more difficult to visually distinguish from each other (On a 100" inch diagonal screen, each pixel on a 2K display will be a 1.2 millimeters wide minus the spacing between the pixels (dot pitch), but on a 4K display each pixel will be only a 0.6 millimeters across, again minus the dot pitch.). This is really, really tiny. Note, this problem exists even for a 4K generator. For example, I looked at a crosshatch using a Quantum Data 4K generator and I had a hard time visually distinguishing each pixel, a problem I have never encountered with 2K projectors. It is just that with a 2K generator you will add the additional element of scaling. Essentially, this use of the crosshatch is much the same as the multiburst, which is why the issues are similar.

For all other test patterns, the scaling of a 2K test pattern to 4K should pose no problems, at least none that I can think of.

I can supply a 4K multiburst test image (bmp) that users can employ on 4K displays. When native 4K disc players become available you could just burn this image onto a disc and then play the disc. Or, if the display has a USB slot or card reader built-in (many do), you can display the image directly on the display.

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post #5558 of 5750 Old 08-03-2014, 08:31 AM
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Tom,
I want you to know that I, and several other's here always appreciate your speedy reply's.
What a wonderful explanation of what to expect and what not.
All the Best,
Glen

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post #5559 of 5750 Old 08-03-2014, 12:56 PM
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To use external patterns, do I simply de-select all signal generators in ChromaPure?
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post #5560 of 5750 Old 08-03-2014, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
To use external patterns, do I simply de-select all signal generators in ChromaPure?
Options, Signal Generators, and then uncheck "Enable Signal Generator Support."

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post #5561 of 5750 Old 08-04-2014, 03:15 PM
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Hi, I'll be looking into getting an enthusiast license and will be using an iD3 meter but have a couple of questions...

Can I use the AVS709 disk with chromapure and does it have the capability to tweak the saturation settings on my set?

I have a ST60 plasma I'll be calibrating.
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post #5562 of 5750 Old 08-04-2014, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunan View Post
Hi, I'll be looking into getting an enthusiast license and will be using an iD3 meter but have a couple of questions...

Can I use the AVS709 disk with chromapure and does it have the capability to tweak the saturation settings on my set?

I have a ST60 plasma I'll be calibrating.
Yes, it does.

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post #5563 of 5750 Old 08-04-2014, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
Yes, it does.
I mean as a standalone setting, like adjusting luminance and hue. I feel saturation is the hardest to tweak because when I was using a different calibration software, hue and luminance were the only adjustments that really 'moved the needle' per se; in other words, tweaking the saturation setting on my set did very little to no difference in getting the colors exactly to reference, and from what I've heard others say, my tv should have no problem getting there.

Another question (or 2) if you take a baseline reading and say the green is REALLY off of reference, is it ok to tweak it to get it to reference or are you not supposed to ever touch it? Again, I've heard both sides, don't touch anything related to green ever, and go ahead and tweak in order to get to reference. I was under the impression that tweaking threw the luminance and gamma off on all the colors. Is this true? I've seen the videos on this page to get a better understanding on how to get started and the color management video states to start with red and when finished, tweak the rest. Would that apply to green also?

https://www.avproalliance.com/pages/...n_Software_ISF


Also, is there some sort of step by step or walkthrough for this software, like an order of what to do first, I.E., gamma, then luminance, then hue, then saturation, etc.?
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post #5564 of 5750 Old 08-04-2014, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunan View Post
I mean as a standalone setting, like adjusting luminance and hue. I feel saturation is the hardest to tweak because when I was using a different calibration software, hue and luminance were the only adjustments that really 'moved the needle' per se; in other words, tweaking the saturation setting on my set did very little to no difference in getting the colors exactly to reference, and from what I've heard others say, my tv should have no problem getting there.

Another question (or 2) if you take a baseline reading and say the green is REALLY off of reference, is it ok to tweak it to get it to reference or are you not supposed to ever touch it? Again, I've heard both sides, don't touch anything related to green ever, and go ahead and tweak in order to get to reference. I was under the impression that tweaking threw the luminance and gamma off on all the colors. Is this true? I've seen the videos on this page to get a better understanding on how to get started and the color management video states to start with red and when finished, tweak the rest. Would that apply to green also?

https://www.avproalliance.com/pages/...n_Software_ISF


Also, is there some sort of step by step or walkthrough for this software, like an order of what to do first, I.E., gamma, then luminance, then hue, then saturation, etc.?
You don't use a special test pattern for calibrating saturation. You just display, for example, a red test pattern and then adjust the saturation control on the CMS. If adjusting the control does not result in a change in measured saturation, then the fault is with the control.

You are confusing color calibration with grayscale calibration. It is generally true that you do not adjust green when doing grayscale. However, you can certainly make any adjustments you like to get the green primary color to its specification.

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post #5565 of 5750 Old 08-04-2014, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
You don't use a special test pattern for calibrating saturation. You just display, for example, a red test pattern and then adjust the saturation control on the CMS. If adjusting the control does not result in a change in measured saturation, then the fault is with the control.

You are confusing color calibration with grayscale calibration. It is generally true that you do not adjust green when doing grayscale. However, you can certainly make any adjustments you like to get the green primary color to its specification.
OK, I understand a lot more about ther green now, thanks. Don't adjust green when doing greyscale, but feel free to adjust green primary to get to reference. Won't it throw off the green in the greyscale though?

And I guess I am confused with the saturation control - when I tried a calibration last time, I was able to get close to reference by just using hue and luminance, and thinking I could get it spot on using saturation, I could not. It's the most confusing setting for me as I'm not sure exactly where the setting comes into play during the calibration. I see other settings for my TV on the web and they will show saturation settings in the teens and 20's and I'm wondering how they came to that conclusion. Hue and luminance are easy to set, saturation, not so much?

Can you provide some insight (if you have a minute) where at what point in the calibration process the saturation setting is used? Is it after getting as close to reference as possible using hue and luminance? I have no idea where it comes in.
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post #5566 of 5750 Old 08-05-2014, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
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Can you provide some insight (if you have a minute) where at what point in the calibration process the saturation setting is used? Is it after getting as close to reference as possible using hue and luminance? I have no idea where it comes in.
There is no order of adjustment. Just experiment with the 3 CMS controls and get the lowest dE possible.

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post #5567 of 5750 Old 08-05-2014, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
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OK, I understand a lot more about ther green now, thanks. Don't adjust green when doing greyscale, but feel free to adjust green primary to get to reference. Won't it throw off the green in the greyscale though?
I'd say you're oversimplifying if you say "don't adjust green doing greyscale." Of R, G, and B, green is the color that has the greatest impact on perceived brightness, followed by red and finally by blue.

So if you're doing a two point greyscale adjustment, then modifying green low is going to have the best chance of messing up your chosen brightness setting. Likewise, adjusting green high has the best chance of messing up your chosen contrast setting. Red can also do that but to a much lesser degree. So you try to avoid changing green so that you're less likely to have to go back and readjust brightness and contrast (which usually messes up everything).

If you're doing a 10 point adjustment, then what I said above is true for the lowest and highest points, but for the points in the middle changing green is one way to adjust your gamma. Some displays have a separate gamma adjustment, but if they don't have one of those then you can adjust green to fix not only the color temperature of the point but also the gamma.

So there's nothing inherently evil with adjusting green, it's just the greyscale color that is most likely to have a side effect.
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post #5568 of 5750 Old 08-05-2014, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post
I'd say you're oversimplifying if you say "don't adjust green doing greyscale." Of R, G, and B, green is the color that has the greatest impact on perceived brightness, followed by red and finally by blue.

So if you're doing a two point greyscale adjustment, then modifying green low is going to have the best chance of messing up your chosen brightness setting. Likewise, adjusting green high has the best chance of messing up your chosen contrast setting. Red can also do that but to a much lesser degree. So you try to avoid changing green so that you're less likely to have to go back and readjust brightness and contrast (which usually messes up everything).

If you're doing a 10 point adjustment, then what I said above is true for the lowest and highest points, but for the points in the middle changing green is one way to adjust your gamma. Some displays have a separate gamma adjustment, but if they don't have one of those then you can adjust green to fix not only the color temperature of the point but also the gamma.

So there's nothing inherently evil with adjusting green, it's just the greyscale color that is most likely to have a side effect.
OK, thanks for the explanation. I have a much better understanding of how it works now.

I just purchased the enthusiast license from curtpalme.com, is there anything in particular to do to get started other than install it and see if it recognizes my meter? (iDisplay pro 3)

EDIT: Talked to Tom, got everything sorted out.

Last edited by dunan; 08-05-2014 at 06:20 PM.
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post #5569 of 5750 Old 08-06-2014, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
Options, Signal Generators, and then uncheck "Enable Signal Generator Support."

Thanks.
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post #5570 of 5750 Old 08-06-2014, 09:33 AM
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Really liking the software, very informative and easy to use.

Only ran into 2 hangups:

How to adjust the main color while still having an almost full blown CMS

And

The main white balance (red high, red low, etc)

I'm guessing to do a 80/20 measurement and adjust accordingly.

Then tweak the remaining 10 point. What if the other adjustments throw off the 80/20 adjustment, am I re-tweaking the MAIN white balance or tweaking the 80/20 levels inside the 10 point fine adjustments?
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post #5571 of 5750 Old 08-06-2014, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunan View Post
Really liking the software, very informative and easy to use.

Only ran into 2 hangups:

How to adjust the main color while still having an almost full blown CMS

And

The main white balance (red high, red low, etc)

I'm guessing to do a 80/20 measurement and adjust accordingly.

Then tweak the remaining 10 point. What if the other adjustments throw off the 80/20 adjustment, am I re-tweaking the MAIN white balance or tweaking the 80/20 levels inside the 10 point fine adjustments?
With a CMS you shouldn't have to use the main Color control. You are over-thinking white balance. Just do an 80/20 using the main white balance controls and then use the 10 pt controls for any fine-tuning.

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post #5572 of 5750 Old 08-06-2014, 02:11 PM
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With a CMS you shouldn't have to use the main Color control. You are over-thinking white balance. Just do an 80/20 using the main white balance controls and then use the 10 pt controls for any fine-tuning.
Sorry, I'm kind of a perfectionist when it comes to this, I want to get it as perfectly calibrated as possible and have gotten very close so far...a tv's color reproduction is one thing that bugs me even if it's a little off... So keep the color setting at the default of 50 then and don't bother with it.
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post #5573 of 5750 Old 08-07-2014, 09:47 AM
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Accupel DVG-5000 or DVDV TPG 4K

I am thinking about buying a new pattern generator. I am looking at the Accupel DVG-5000 and the DVDO TPG 4K. They both will work with Chromapure but they have different features. The DVG-5000 has 3D support but no 4K. I don't own either, 3D or 4K at the moment but who knows what I'll have next year. The DVDO TPG 4K has no 3D support but has 4K. If I get the DVG-5000 can I use the DVDO i-scan mini to up scale the output to 4K? A plus for the DVDO TPG is I can use it on monitors. I can do that with my Sencore VP403C but I would like to put that up for sale if it is still worth anything to save for a I1 pro so I can profile my I1D3.
I am seeking help from the experts here as to what you think and would buy.

Thanks
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post #5574 of 5750 Old 08-07-2014, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hollisavrct View Post
If I get the DVG-5000 can I use the DVDO i-scan mini to up scale the output to 4K?
Yes, you could certainly do that.

BTW, we will be releasing a firmware update for the AccuPel in the next few days that offers substantial improvements in speed when calling user colors from the PC (useful for LUT calibrations that require a large number of sequential colors) and enhanced abilities to display precision colors from the remote and OSD.

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Ok I'm very close to getting this as calibrated possible I tthink but I think it could be better because the only errors I'm getting are in the secondaries, cyan is dE of 3.9 and Magenta is 2.4, yellow is 1.7 I believe.

Is there a way to get the errors down in the secondaries - all the primaries have a dE of 0.1 and are as spot on to reference as can be at this point.
Is there any tips or tricks to getting the secondaries to reference or down to below dE of 2.0 without severely messing up the primaries?
It took a long time last night getting the primaries to reference and I was always informed that if the primaries were lined up to reference then the secondaries would fall into place but it hasn't happened.

Is it more important for the primaries or secondaries to be at reference?
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post #5576 of 5750 Old 08-07-2014, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunan View Post
Ok I'm very close to getting this as calibrated possible I tthink but I think it could be better because the only errors I'm getting are in the secondaries, cyan is dE of 3.9 and Magenta is 2.4, yellow is 1.7 I believe.

Is there a way to get the errors down in the secondaries - all the primaries have a dE of 0.1 and are as spot on to reference as can be at this point.
Is there any tips or tricks to getting the secondaries to reference or down to below dE of 2.0 without severely messing up the primaries?
It took a long time last night getting the primaries to reference and I was always informed that if the primaries were lined up to reference then the secondaries would fall into place but it hasn't happened.

Is it more important for the primaries or secondaries to be at reference?
There are only two things that can cause this:
1) Grayscale errors.
2) Color Decoding Errors

Doesn't your CMS have controls for the secondaries?

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post #5577 of 5750 Old 08-08-2014, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
Yes, you could certainly do that.

BTW, we will be releasing a firmware update for the AccuPel in the next few days that offers substantial improvements in speed when calling user colors from the PC (useful for LUT calibrations that require a large number of sequential colors) and enhanced abilities to display precision colors from the remote and OSD.
I am leaning towards the DVG-5000 and I have been looking over the patterns and am confused as to which pattern to use to set contrast. i see a pattern in the 50% APL PLUGE with 98%/102% PLUGE and it says it is for LCoS/LCD/DLP displays. I own a plasma and need to use the DVG-5000 to set it up. Which pattern could I use for this. Can I use this as a stand alone generator to set op the user controls? This looks like a great generator. How hard would it be to add a contrast pattern?

Thanks
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post #5578 of 5750 Old 08-08-2014, 08:45 AM
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I am leaning towards the DVG-5000 and I have been looking over the patterns and am confused as to which pattern to use to set contrast. i see a pattern in the 50% APL PLUGE with 98%/102% PLUGE and it says it is for LCoS/LCD/DLP displays. I own a plasma and need to use the DVG-5000 to set it up. Which pattern could I use for this. Can I use this as a stand alone generator to set op the user controls? This looks like a great generator. How hard would it be to add a contrast pattern?
That is verbiage from the original user manual, which I will fix. The exclusion of plasma was not intentional. The 98%/102% PLUGE is what I always use for setting contrast.

It can be used either as a standalone generator using the remote control and OSD or in concert with a calibration program, such as ChromaPure, to get the needed test pattern.

Tom Huffman
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post #5579 of 5750 Old 08-08-2014, 12:30 PM
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There are only two things that can cause this:
1) Grayscale errors.
2) Color Decoding Errors

Doesn't your CMS have controls for the secondaries?
Hmm I'll have to look at the greyscale again, I thought I had it pretty nailed down with all of the primaries of the 10 point within 1% of each other with the exception of 0% and 10% - 0% is heavy blue that hits the stratosphere, and any direction I move red or blue for 10% it shifts roughly 6% I'll post a screenshot of last night's greyscale and CIE chart soon.

Last night I was able to get almost all of the colors lined up mostly to reference except cyan, it's still at dE of 2.6 and can't get it any better no matter how much I adjust green or blue.

No, my TV has everything BUT controls for the secondaries.

Color encoding errors means color hardware errors built into the TV I presume.
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post #5580 of 5750 Old 08-08-2014, 12:37 PM
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The color on the ST60 is not perfect but you can achieve a pretty good result. Without the secondary controls is harder to make those perfect. I personally wouldn't worry too much about Cyan, if skin tones look good I'd call it a day I'll see if I can dig up some of my CMS reports on my ST60.

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