The Official ChromaPure thread - Page 187 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 37Likes
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-08-2014, 02:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 311 Post(s)
Liked: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunan View Post
That's what's driving me nutty, some scenes skin tones look great but some others they look completely pale or'off' if you know what I mean. There seems to be a little too much blue or green in the wb that is throwing them off I think, but within all the 10 point controls the rgb is matched almost exactly at 100% even. Maybe notch up the reds? Idk, I'm at a loss lol.

Now if I click the tint down a couple of ticks, cyan gets perfect but Magenta gets thrown off and no matter what I adjust it will not budge either.

What size patterns are you using and which meter ?
chunon is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-08-2014, 03:01 PM
Advanced Member
 
dunan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
What size patterns are you using and which meter ?
100% patterns and an iD3 meter. Also using the AVS709 disc.

Also this is the WB I have right now. They are all maybe 1% of each other for all 10 points but they look dominant in green, maybe that's the problem. Maybe increase the reds and blues so they are slightly above green? That's about as good as I can get I think.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	precal wb080814.jpg
Views:	28
Size:	31.9 KB
ID:	203409  

Last edited by dunan; 08-08-2014 at 03:06 PM.
dunan is offline  
Old 08-08-2014, 06:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 311 Post(s)
Liked: 553
Do cms at 75 75. You also might want to try smaller windows . mascoir has a really nice disk optimized for chroma pure. I like the 6.5% windows
chunon is online now  
Old 08-08-2014, 06:28 PM
Advanced Member
 
dunan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Do cms at 75 75. You also might want to try smaller windows . mascoir has a really nice disk optimized for chroma pure. I like the 6.5% windows
OK i'll try it and see what i get

...mascoir? Is that a user or company?
dunan is offline  
Old 08-08-2014, 06:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 311 Post(s)
Liked: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunan View Post
OK i'll try it and see what i get

...mascoir? Is that a user or company?

Just do a search here on the forum he is a forum member that created his own calibration pattern disc
chunon is online now  
Old 08-08-2014, 06:53 PM
Advanced Member
 
dunan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Just do a search here on the forum he is a forum member that created his own calibration pattern disc
ok, great

I'm seeing the problem with the white balance/greyscale. I'm adjusting the 100 point. I get 100 perfect, so I do 90. Get 90 perfect, it has tweaked 100 out of whack again. I fix 100, then move to 90. Get 90 and 100 right so move to 80. Get 80 right but 80 tweaked 90. Fix 90 but that tweaked 100 again. This is a revolving door of craziness.

I've been solely working on grayscale all day.
No wonder I cant get a good grayscale. I have no idea what to do from here if the tv itself will not permit me to make accurate adjustments.
dunan is offline  
Old 08-08-2014, 06:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
CalWldLif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: South Bay'Los Angeles California.
Posts: 518
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunan View Post
ok, great

I'm seeing the problem with the white balance/greyscale. I'm adjusting the 100 point. I get 100 perfect, so I do 90. Get 90 perfect, it has tweaked 100 out of whack again. I fix 100, then move to 90. Get 90 and 100 right so move to 80. Get 80 right but 80 tweaked 90. Fix 90 but that tweaked 100 again. This is a revolving door of craziness.

I've been solely working on grayscale all day.
No wonder I cant get a good grayscale. I have no idea what to do from here if the tv itself will not permit me to make accurate adjustments.
just do little changes and do a pattern run to see how it is affecting all the points.
you will get a feel for how the points interact with each other.
first find the points with the greatest error.
say 30 then 60 and 90 are high.
work a little on 60 and then rerun the scale.
you can not just hammer one point and expect others not to change.
kind of a dance.

Loving D65
CalWldLif is offline  
Old 08-08-2014, 07:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 311 Post(s)
Liked: 553
^^^^yes do a complete greyscale run make adjustments then do another run if you try to adjust just one or two points it is like chasing your tail

Also if you are using to large a window size your are fighting abl also

I really think the 6.5% patterns will do the trick for you

Last edited by chunon; 08-08-2014 at 07:09 PM.
chunon is online now  
Old 08-08-2014, 08:49 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wetumpka, AL
Posts: 15,539
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
Yes, you could certainly do that.

BTW, we will be releasing a firmware update for the AccuPel in the next few days that offers substantial improvements in speed when calling user colors from the PC (useful for LUT calibrations that require a large number of sequential colors) and enhanced abilities to display precision colors from the remote and OSD.
For those calibration programs that can access the AccuPel, will their code have to be rewritten?

Will the Accupel Desktop application also change?

Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50, Oppo 95, Tivo Roamio for OTA, Dish VIP722, Marantz AV8801 preamp, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP, Calman 5, Chromapure, Accupel DVG-5000, VideoForge HDMI II, i1Display3pro, i1pro2, eecolor colorbox.
JimP is online now  
Old 08-08-2014, 09:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TomHuffman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 6,485
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked: 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
For those calibration programs that can access the AccuPel, will their code have to be rewritten?

Will the Accupel Desktop application also change?
They won't HAVE to be re-written because the existing codes will be retained. However, to get the speed increase, yes, they would have to be re-written.

No, neither change will affect the desktop application.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

TomHuffman is offline  
Old 08-08-2014, 10:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TomHuffman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 6,485
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked: 249
New AccuPel Firmware

We have released new firmware for the AccuPel DVG-5000 video test pattern generator. This firmware is free to all DVG-5000 owners.

The new firmware allows for much faster calls of sequential colors via USB commands, which is useful for LUT calibrations. The firmware also adds support for the ability to define and display User Colors with the remote control and OSD in full 8-bit or 10-bit precision.

See the Support tab on the AccuPel page for a download link.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

TomHuffman is offline  
Old 08-09-2014, 09:12 AM
Advanced Member
 
dunan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
^^^^yes do a complete greyscale run make adjustments then do another run if you try to adjust just one or two points it is like chasing your tail

Also if you are using to large a window size your are fighting abl also

I really think the 6.5% patterns will do the trick for you
The 6.5% patterns - are those size and for doing colors/grayscale? Also, I found a neat trick in chromapure - do the grayscale and gamma at the same time interactively - unless that's already known and I'm just figuring it out...lol

I completed the calibration for the most part, I'll go back later and do some minor tweaking to finish it up. Still am not able to get cyan under 2.6 dE and it's about 3/4 the way out of the reference box. Bugs me to no end because I went over and over the grayscale and gamma to get it as correct as possible. Yellow and Magenta are not nearly as out, they are close to being reference.

I'll post the charts later this afternoon, had to work today. The only thing I can't seem to fix is a bump in red between 40-60 in the gamma chart. I'll try to fix it but if not, I have all the settings written down, I can always revert back if it gets out of hand.

Overall it looks good, I didn't get to watch much other than a little bit of frozen (I have a 3 yr old) to test how it looked on and I'd say it passes, but CG is so different color wise, I have to see something like Pacific rim or blade runner to see if it's a good calibration.

Feel like I just wrote in an online diary... Lol
dunan is offline  
Old 08-09-2014, 12:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 311 Post(s)
Liked: 553
Yes 6.5% across the board
chunon is online now  
Old 08-09-2014, 02:15 PM
Advanced Member
 
dunan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Yes 6.5% across the board
What do the smaller size patterns do exactly? I didn't think it would matter?
dunan is offline  
Old 08-09-2014, 02:59 PM
Senior Member
 
rmongiovi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 489
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 27
It's a plasma thing. ABL - automatic brightness limiter. There's only a certain amount of power they let let the screen draw. So if you have too much bright stuff on the screen the whole picture gets dimmer. If you use full screen patterns to do greyscale, for example, as you go from 10% to 100% the total brighness of the screen varies from pattern to pattern because of the limiter. Patterns that take up 6.5% or so of the screen (or less) are generally considered "safe" because even a 100% luminance pattern isn't limited too badly by ABL. Of course, the exact effect differs by manufacturer.

Adjust your gamma with 6.5% patterns and then measure with full screen. You'll see it quite unmistakably. There will be a dogleg in your screen brightness.
rmongiovi is offline  
Old 08-09-2014, 03:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
dunan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Yes 6.5% across the board
So is there an option in chromapure to use these patterns? I'm still not very familiar with the software yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post
It's a plasma thing. ABL - automatic brightness limiter. There's only a certain amount of power they let let the screen draw. So if you have too much bright stuff on the screen the whole picture gets dimmer. If you use full screen patterns to do greyscale, for example, as you go from 10% to 100% the total brighness of the screen varies from pattern to pattern because of the limiter. Patterns that take up 6.5% or so of the screen (or less) are generally considered "safe" because even a 100% luminance pattern isn't limited too badly by ABL. Of course, the exact effect differs by manufacturer.

Adjust your gamma with 6.5% patterns and then measure with full screen. You'll see it quite unmistakably. There will be a dogleg in your screen brightness.
Are the patterns only used for gamma/grayscale? Not for color or use them for color also?
dunan is offline  
Old 08-09-2014, 03:50 PM
Senior Member
 
rmongiovi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 489
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 27
If you're just using Chromapure to read the screen, it doesn't care how much of the screen the pattern fills up (as long as you aim the probe so that it only sees pattern and no blank screen). If you're using a pattern generator then you have to select what size patterns it generates. So either use a disc with smaller patterns (I like Mascior's) or set up your pattern generator to use smaller patterns.

You'd want to use the smaller patterns for everything. The correct luminance of the colors is based off of the luminance of white, and you want to take ABL out of the picture (pun intended) as much as possible for the entire calibration. ABL is an extra variable that you don't need when trying to calibrate to a standard that doesn't include it.
rmongiovi is offline  
Old 08-09-2014, 04:17 PM
Advanced Member
 
dunan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post
If you're just using Chromapure to read the screen, it doesn't care how much of the screen the pattern fills up (as long as you aim the probe so that it only sees pattern and no blank screen). If you're using a pattern generator then you have to select what size patterns it generates. So either use a disc with smaller patterns (I like Mascior's) or set up your pattern generator to use smaller patterns.

You'd want to use the smaller patterns for everything. The correct luminance of the colors is based off of the luminance of white, and you want to take ABL out of the picture (pun intended) as much as possible for the entire calibration. ABL is an extra variable that you don't need when trying to calibrate to a standard that doesn't include it.
So the size of the pattern itself makes for a better calibration? Lots of good info, thanks you guys. I'm downloading the pattern disc from mascoir's website later today, we'll see how it goes.
dunan is offline  
Old 08-10-2014, 08:20 AM
Advanced Member
 
dunan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Tried mascoir's patterns, and the calibration came out slightly differently, a little more accurate in the cyan but now the yellow is of, but not as bad as cyan was in the previous calibration . It's still throwing the picture off some.

So can someone explain the importance of primary vs secondary accuracy in the CIE chart?

I want to really get the secondaries under control, so is it OK to sacrifice a little bit of primary accuracy to get the secondaries right or does it not work that way?

Last edited by dunan; 08-10-2014 at 02:56 PM.
dunan is offline  
Old 08-10-2014, 02:58 PM
Senior Member
 
Wouter73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Alkmaar, Netherlands
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 34
If you get the dE under 1.8 (I aim for 1.0 to 1.5), you will have a very good calibration. Allthough there is a difference of opinion on the matter, there are those who argue (and rightly so in my opinion) that, in actual video footage, you cannot differentiate a dE lower the 1.8. I mean you can aim for a lower number but you won't see the difference. The reason I tell you this is that you might want to try to let go of the overdone low dE on the primairies to see if that allowes you to do better on the secondairies.
Wouter73 is offline  
Old 08-10-2014, 03:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzard767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Naples, FL & Wausau, WI
Posts: 4,126
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 461 Post(s)
Liked: 978
If you don't profile the D3 to a spectro meter you may well be quite a ways off to begin with and you'll never know.

Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 

buzzard767 is online now  
Old 08-10-2014, 04:17 PM
Advanced Member
 
dunan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post
If you get the dE under 1.8 (I aim for 1.0 to 1.5), you will have a very good calibration. Allthough there is a difference of opinion on the matter, there are those who argue (and rightly so in my opinion) that, in actual video footage, you cannot differentiate a dE lower than 1.8. I mean you can aim for a lower number but you won't see the difference. The reason I tell you this is that you might want to try to let go of the overdone low dE on the primairies to see if that allowes you to do better on the secondairies.
That makes sense and that's great info, thanks. I'll try that later and see how it goes.

One question that I can never seem to get an answer on is - is there a particular order in adjusting the hue/sat/luminance? I just found an article online that said to adjust hue/saturation first, then tweak the lightness. Is that true? My method right now is to tweak whatever is farthest from 0 first which in my case here is always luminance, drop it, then go for the next farthest which depending on the color is either hue or saturation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
If you don't profile the D3 to a spectro meter you may well be quite a ways off to begin with and you'll never know.
How would I do that?
dunan is offline  
Old 08-10-2014, 04:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzard767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Naples, FL & Wausau, WI
Posts: 4,126
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 461 Post(s)
Liked: 978
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunan View Post
How would I do that?
In ChromaPure it's the Meter Correction tab, but you need a spectro device for the Reference meter.

Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 

buzzard767 is online now  
Old 08-10-2014, 04:42 PM
Advanced Member
 
dunan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
In ChromaPure it's the Meter Correction tab, but you need a spectro device for the Reference meter.
I just found that out watching Micheal chan's video on YouTube.

I don't have one nor do I know anyone with one. If I remember right They were upwards of $600 US.
dunan is offline  
Old 08-10-2014, 05:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzard767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Naples, FL & Wausau, WI
Posts: 4,126
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 461 Post(s)
Liked: 978
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunan View Post
I just found that out watching Micheal chan's video on YouTube.

I don't have one nor do I know anyone with one. If I remember right They were upwards of $600 US.
Don't sweat it. You're just starting out. You're far too concerned about that last half a dE. Your colorimeter will get you into the ball park and for a non professional job that should suffice.

One thing is for sure and that is your display(s) will look much better than stock, and you won't be too far from as good as your displays can get. Have fun.

Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 

buzzard767 is online now  
Old 08-10-2014, 08:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Pres2play's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,658
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
If you don't profile the D3 to a spectro meter you may well be quite a ways off to begin with and you'll never know.

So is profiling the i1D3 to a Spectro meter complicated?


Edit: will it save me from having to mail back my meter for a re-calibration after a year?

Last edited by Pres2play; 08-10-2014 at 08:58 PM.
Pres2play is offline  
Old 08-10-2014, 11:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TomHuffman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 6,485
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked: 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
So is profiling the i1D3 to a Spectro meter complicated?

Edit: will it save me from having to mail back my meter for a re-calibration after a year?
It is very simple. Use the Meter Correction module to take WRGB readings with a reference spectro and then WRGB with your colorimeter, and then click Apply.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

TomHuffman is offline  
Old 08-10-2014, 11:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TomHuffman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 6,485
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked: 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunan View Post
I just found that out watching Micheal chan's video on YouTube.

I don't have one nor do I know anyone with one. If I remember right They were upwards of $600 US.
An i1Pro 2 is about $1K.

Here's our video.

http://www.chromapure.com/movies/cor...orrection.html

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

TomHuffman is offline  
Old 08-10-2014, 11:58 PM
Senior Member
 
rmongiovi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 489
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 27
You can always look for used i1 pro's (the model before the i1pro 2) on ebay. Just look for Rev D. The i1 pro seems like a pretty robust device. Unless it's been mistreated you can pretty much expect it to work well.
rmongiovi is offline  
Old 08-11-2014, 12:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Pres2play's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,658
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post
You can always look for used i1 pro's (the model before the i1pro 2) on ebay. Just look for Rev D. The i1 pro seems like a pretty robust device. Unless it's been mistreated you can pretty much expect it to work well.



Is the original i1Pro still available new? Read it's just as good for calibrating displays as the i1Pro2.
Pres2play is offline  
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off