The Official ChromaPure thread - Page 33 - AVS Forum
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post #961 of 5841 Old 03-31-2011, 12:36 PM
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Thanks. Well I will wait untill JVC releases a firmware.

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post #962 of 5841 Old 03-31-2011, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pers1 View Post

Thanks. Well I will wait untill JVC releases a firmware.

PerS

That is what I decided as well but that'll depend on when they release it versus when I get the bug to get it done.

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post #963 of 5841 Old 03-31-2011, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anbjornk View Post

With all due respect, Tom, your package would not work with the X7 either. The problem is not the software, but the color filters used in the projector. Due to the fact that the filters "transfer" light from the green spectrum in to green and blue, no meter will read correctly. This also means that the "traditional way" of measuring grayscale will not work.

I am reluctant to comment on something I haven't experienced for myself, but I am very skeptical that a projector's output is such that "no meter will read correctly". I have been reading stuff like this for years for various display technologies and I have never been able to confirm anything like this. Also, if "no meter" can read it how would you know? What's the reference against which it is being compared?

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post #964 of 5841 Old 03-31-2011, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lbosley View Post

Tom - Maybe it's just my configuration, but I think I found an error in the green calibration of the latest ChromaPure release. I was excited to see the 75% Rec. 709 Color Management capbilities because my display is much more accurate when calibrating to the 75% saturation points first. But when I put this to the test this morning it appears to me that the green measurements with this gamut selection is still looking for a 100% saturation pattern. I used the Advanced CM measurments to verify this. Please take a look.

Love the product!!

Tom, did you see this post? Can you verify if what lbosley is saying is true or not? I've got a DVDO DUO on the way and I was hoping to calibrate my setup on the weekend.
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post #965 of 5841 Old 03-31-2011, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anbjornk View Post

The problem is not the software, but the color filters used in the projector. Due to the fact that the filters "transfer" light from the green spectrum in to green and blue, no meter will read correctly. This also means that the "traditional way" of measuring grayscale will not work.

I am not intimately familiar with the particular projector referred to here, but I don't understand what you are saying here. Filters can ONLY reduce certain parts of the spectrum. There is no way that a filter can move energy from one part of the spectrum to another (which your statement seems to imply).

Now it is possible to have sharp cut-off filters which might make measurement difficult (though I doubt it) - but there is no "transfer" of light going on.

Dave Hancock
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post #966 of 5841 Old 03-31-2011, 08:25 PM
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I just tested this and I see no problem. I measured 75% green in Advanced Color Management and standard Color Management

Color Management


Advanced Color Management


x y Y CIE94
ACM 0.280 0.595 0.744 5.9
CM 0.280 0.591 0.746 5.7

If color management were expecting 100% saturation, then what is essentially the same measurement would have a much higher dE than what is measured in advanced color management, but they are virtually identical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lbosley View Post

Tom - Maybe it's just my configuration, but I think I found an error in the green calibration of the latest ChromaPure release. I was excited to see the 75% Rec. 709 Color Management capbilities because my display is much more accurate when calibrating to the 75% saturation points first. But when I put this to the test this morning it appears to me that the green measurements with this gamut selection is still looking for a 100% saturation pattern. I used the Advanced CM measurments to verify this. Please take a look.

Love the product!!


Tom Huffman
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post #967 of 5841 Old 04-01-2011, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I am reluctant to comment on something I haven't experienced for myself, but I am very skeptical that a projector's output is such that "no meter will read correctly". I have been reading stuff like this for years for various display technologies and I have never been able to confirm anything like this. Also, if "no meter" can read it how would you know? What's the reference against which it is being compared?

I did not do the calibration, so I cannot say anything for sure, but i trust my colleague when he says it's "impossible". I will make him aware of this thread, so that he can comment on this (if he wants to).
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post #968 of 5841 Old 04-01-2011, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

I am not intimately familiar with the particular projector referred to here, but I don't understand what you are saying here. Filters can ONLY reduce certain parts of the spectrum. There is no way that a filter can move energy from one part of the spectrum to another (which your statement seems to imply).

Now it is possible to have sharp cut-off filters which might make measurement difficult (though I doubt it) - but there is no "transfer" of light going on.

I'm no expert on filters, so I cannot really comment more on this. What I do know though, is that there is way to much green energy in red and blue, which makes the X7 nearly impossible to calibrate correctly.
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post #969 of 5841 Old 04-01-2011, 06:06 AM
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Tom - Like I said, maybe it's my configuration or something that I am doing wrong. I looked at this again this morning and I come up with the same issue. All of the other colors are consistent except for green.

See the attached document showing my measurements. The graph indicated the pattern is 8.5% under-saturated. The data shows otherwise.

I am using the latest AVSHD pattern windows for the test. 100% white for the white reference, and 75% saturation patterns for the colors.

- Larry

 

Green.doc 106k . file
Attached Files
File Type: doc Green.doc (106.0 KB, 1 views)
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post #970 of 5841 Old 04-01-2011, 07:15 AM
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Tom - Doesn't your measured saturation values of almost .6 put your green measurement values at the 100% point on the chart, as well? And your graph shows it 1.2% under-saturated. What am I missing here?
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post #971 of 5841 Old 04-01-2011, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lbosley View Post

Tom - Like I said, maybe it's my configuration or something that I am doing wrong. I looked at this again this morning and I come up with the same issue. All of the other colors are consistent except for green.

See the attached document showing my measurements. The graph indicated the pattern is 8.5% under-saturated. The data shows otherwise.

I am using the latest AVSHD pattern windows for the test. 100% white for the white reference, and 75% saturation patterns for the colors.

- Larry

What's your Y reading for White?
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post #972 of 5841 Old 04-01-2011, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lbosley View Post

Tom - Doesn't your measured saturation values of almost .6 put your green measurement values at the 100% point on the chart, as well? And your graph shows it 1.2% under-saturated. What am I missing here?

You know, you are absolutely right.

We will be releasing a version with a few bug fixes in a few days. This will be in it.

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post #973 of 5841 Old 04-01-2011, 09:44 AM
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White luminance is somewhere around 120 cmd2. But as far as I know it shouldn't have any effect on the xy coordinates of a particular reading. Don't worry about my luminance measurements I show in the ACM readings. I didn't measure white first. I admit there may be something that I don't understand, but it looks cut and dry to me. I suspect that the "reference" 75% green that Tom has been using for the software is actually at 100% saturation. Just look at the values he lists in his own test:

x y Y CIE94
ACM 0.280 0.595 0.744 5.9
CM 0.280 0.591 0.746 5.7

Plot this "75%" saturation color on the gamut chart and tell me where it ends up.

I apologize in advance if I'm wrong. But somebody please enlighten me about my numbers.
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post #974 of 5841 Old 04-01-2011, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

You know, you are absolutely right.

We will be releasing a version with a few bug fixes in a few days. This will be in it.

This is just a problem with the Color Management module when using 75% Rec. 709, correct?

I could just use the Raw Data module and calibrate to the right xyY values for 75% Saturation, and the White Balance and Gamma modules are still working fine...is that right? My new DUO will arrive any minute and I'm dying to play with it!

EDIT: My Duo is here!
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post #975 of 5841 Old 04-01-2011, 11:34 AM
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Yes, the complete set of saturation measures in the ACM group seem accurate to me. I am also using a Duo for my calibrations, so I understand your enthusiasm. This was only a big deal for me because my 100% saturation values are probably the worst points in the gamut for my set in terms of accuracy. I found that using the 75% targets as the primary reference greatly improved my satisfaction with the resulting calibration. I was VERY excited to see the shortcut method of CM included in this new version for the 75% saturation points. Then I stumbled over the green bump...

Best of luck with your Duo.
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post #976 of 5841 Old 04-01-2011, 11:38 AM
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Thanks...nice catch on the CMS bug.
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post #977 of 5841 Old 04-04-2011, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

Thanks...nice catch on the CMS bug.

We'll be releasing 2.11 later this week containing some bug fixes that have been caught. Since it was discussed here, I wanted to mention that it will include setting all Lumagen test patterns to Adjustable. I discovered that it resets to Reference every time you save changes.

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post #978 of 5841 Old 04-04-2011, 09:48 AM
 
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Tom, I emailed you guys but figured id drop the question here. For a home user, what package of yours would you recommend for LED LCD and Plasma? CMS/Gamma/Grayscale

Thanks.
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post #979 of 5841 Old 04-04-2011, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MurcielagoSV213 View Post

Tom, I emailed you guys but figured id drop the question here. For a home user, what package of yours would you recommend for LED LCD and Plasma? CMS/Gamma/Grayscale

PM sent.

Tom Huffman
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post #980 of 5841 Old 04-05-2011, 12:00 PM
 
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Thanks Tom, just ordered my I1/LT combo. Looking forward to reading this thread.
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post #981 of 5841 Old 04-05-2011, 12:29 PM
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Tom, if I buy a 2nd i1 Display LT, do I have to pay an additional fee to license it, or is the fee waived because I'm buying the same meter I'm already licensed for?

EDIT: according to the Curt Palme site, there's no fee if I'm getting the same meter.
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post #982 of 5841 Old 04-05-2011, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

Tom, if I buy a 2nd i1 Display LT, do I have to pay an additional fee to license it, or is the fee waived because I'm buying the same meter I'm already licensed for?

EDIT: according to the Curt Palme site, there's no fee if I'm getting the same meter.

The issue isn't the type of meter, but the intended use. If you are replacing an old D2 with a new D2, then there is no licensing fee because you are still only using one meter. However, you wish to have both meters on the same license, then there is a fee.

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post #983 of 5841 Old 04-05-2011, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The issue isn't the type of meter, but the intended use. If you are replacing an old D2 with a new D2, then there is no licensing fee because you are still only using one meter. However, you wish to have both meters on the same license, then there is a fee.

I'd be replacing my old meter. I'm suspecting there's a problem with the one I have. I'm getting bizarre results with the one I have. I was having the same problem before.

Before calibration, the image is perfectly watchable. I even had comments about how awesome the picture looks. However, my initial grayscale readings showed Red to be at +130-140% across the board, Green was at 100%, and Blue was so low it wouldn't even show up on the chart. Yet, the resulting image was fine. If I checked out the AVSHD color clipping chart (the 3rd pattern under miscellaneous A), I could see R,G, and B all flashing up to 235.

I have 1100 hours on the lamp. Using the Living Room setting, I'm getting around 14 cd/m2, (brand new it was 35, so the light output has certainly diminished) but the PJ is still plenty bright. The settings I'm using now are ones I used when the lamp was fairly new, and the image looks pretty darned good, yet CP is showing this wacky grayscale.

I just got a DUO, and was able to get the grayscale pretty dead on from 70% down, but the resulting image is decidedly bluish.

Is it possible that the meter is to blame? Maybe it's having a hard time reading accurately now that the light output has lessened. It seems to work ok on my computer monitor.
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post #984 of 5841 Old 04-05-2011, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

However, my initial grayscale readings showed Red to be at +130-140% across the board, Green was at 100%, and Blue was so low it wouldn't even show up on the chart. Yet, the resulting image was fine. . . .

Is it possible that the meter is to blame?

That's what it sounds like.

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post #985 of 5841 Old 04-05-2011, 08:17 PM
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Ok, Tom...I'm going to get a new i1 Display LT to replace the old one. When I get it, do I get in touch with you with the serial number and you give me a new license? I have no desire to use the old meter at all. How do I arrange this?
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post #986 of 5841 Old 04-05-2011, 08:21 PM
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BTW, with readings like I got above, what would you expect the resultant image to look like?
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post #987 of 5841 Old 04-05-2011, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

Ok, Tom...I'm going to get a new i1 Display LT to replace the old one. When I get it, do I get in touch with you with the serial number and you give me a new license? I have no desire to use the old meter at all. How do I arrange this?

Just send ChromaPure Support a request.

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post #988 of 5841 Old 04-05-2011, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

BTW, with readings like I got above, what would you expect the resultant image to look like?

If you mean these readings

"Red to be at +130-140% across the board, Green was at 100%, and Blue was so low it wouldn't even show up on the chart. "

I would expect an image to be unwatchable.

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post #989 of 5841 Old 04-05-2011, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

If you mean these readings

"Red to be at +130-140% across the board, Green was at 100%, and Blue was so low it wouldn't even show up on the chart. "

I would expect an image to be unwatchable.

That's what I would expect to see too. Yet I'm watching with those very same settings as we speak and the image is a tad warm, yet very watchable. It must be the meter.
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post #990 of 5841 Old 04-06-2011, 04:35 AM
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Hey Tom
What Software/Meter Bundles would u reccommend for me doing calibration for my home setup :

My Setup
Projector: JVC X7
Processor: DVDO iScan Duo
Screen: Adeo grey 77"
Room has good light control

my cinema:
http://avforum.no/minhjemmekino/show.php//meridian861


Thanks

PerS
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