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post #2431 of 5552 Old 04-19-2012, 07:07 AM
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I hope it is OK to post these questions here...

I recently purchased ChromaPure and the Display 3 Pro and have been trying to get the best picture possible from my Samsung LN52B750, using the AVSHD disc.

I'm pretty happy with the results I've gotten so far and have been surprised at how many ways it is possible to end up in roughly the same place.

What's bugging me is that setting brightness via the disc patterns indicates a setting of 44, but .006 of 100 IRE white is in the 50's, usually around 56. Also, setting brightness at 44 does seem to me to cause some loss of dark detail, even in a dimly lit room (TV with ambient lighting at 3 ftL behind).

I'm having difficulty getting flat gamma.

So, a) set brightness by disc or by .006X100 IRE?
b) go for low overall dE or flat gamma or does it matter?

Also, when I save a session in ChromaPure and import it later, is there a reason why the "Settings" portion of the file is not retrieved?

I'd like to attach reports to this message, but am clueless as to how to do that.

Thanks for any and all suggestions!
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post #2432 of 5552 Old 04-19-2012, 07:44 AM
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In many cases there is dark detail that is not meant to be seen. Set black visually at level 17.

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post #2433 of 5552 Old 04-19-2012, 09:18 AM
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Thanks - Level 17 it should be. Now at that level, which is Brightness 44 on my set, I cannot get my greys correct due to blue being WAY high at 10 IRE and a hump (not as bad) at 50 IRE. If I set my brightness two clicks higher (46) there is a significant improvement in my dE and smoother (not flat) gamma.

At brightness 46, black is just a hair lighter (less than the difference between black and 2% bars) than BTB, but it can barely be discerned if the screen is dark. Any lightness on the screen or in the room and it can't be seen (by me). Is this an OK compromise? What am I losing if I do this?
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post #2434 of 5552 Old 04-19-2012, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smirshkahoven View Post

So, a) set brightness by disc or by .006X100 IRE?
b) go for low overall dE or flat gamma or does it matter?

Also, when I save a session in ChromaPure and import it later, is there a reason why the "Settings" portion of the file is not retrieved?

a) disc
b) The difference between 44 and 46 is pretty small. If 46 substantially improves dE and gamma, I'd probably leave it there.

Make sure after you make your last entry that you tab out to an empty field. Otherwise, the entries won't be saved.

Tom Huffman
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post #2435 of 5552 Old 04-19-2012, 01:37 PM
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I found the attachment instructions, so here is a quick report of my current calibration status.

If anyone cares to comment on how I'm doing or what I might try to make it better I offer my thanks in advance.

I hope to find a way to reduce my brightness settings to match what the AVSHD indicates (44), but am currently at 46. I'm not quite sure how this happened, but at 46, I'm pretty close to .006 of 100 IRE.
LL
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post #2436 of 5552 Old 04-19-2012, 03:43 PM
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You're doing fine. Now set black visually with the DISC.

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post #2437 of 5552 Old 04-19-2012, 04:08 PM
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The human visual system adapts. Black level, on your set, in a dark room, might be 44. In a bright room it might be 48. It's what you can see, not what you measure. Set black level at 17 (AVSHD) for the environment for which you are calibrating.

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post #2438 of 5552 Old 04-21-2012, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smirshkahoven View Post

I hope it is OK to post these questions here...

I recently purchased ChromaPure and the Display 3 Pro and have been trying to get the best picture possible from my Samsung LN52B750, using the AVSHD disc.

I'm pretty happy with the results I've gotten so far and have been surprised at how many ways it is possible to end up in roughly the same place.

What's bugging me is that setting brightness via the disc patterns indicates a setting of 44, but .006 of 100 IRE white is in the 50's, usually around 56. Also, setting brightness at 44 does seem to me to cause some loss of dark detail, even in a dimly lit room (TV with ambient lighting at 3 ftL behind).

I'm having difficulty getting flat gamma.

So, a) set brightness by disc or by .006X100 IRE?
b) go for low overall dE or flat gamma or does it matter?


Also, when I save a session in ChromaPure and import it later, is there a reason why the "Settings" portion of the file is not retrieved?

I'd like to attach reports to this message, but am clueless as to how to do that.

Thanks for any and all suggestions!

OK, so you've been told by the pros to use the disc to set brightness.

In your question above b) go for low overall dE or flat gamma or does it matter?, I haven't seen an answer. So, here is a shot at it from another amateur, like you, that happens to have the same equipment.

These (low overall dE and flat gamma) are not mutually exclusive, assuming that your LN52B750 has 10-point WB adjustments. If you do have 10-point, read on.

dE is the error of the balance of RGB at the IRE you're looking at. It is basically the xy coordinates you arrive at. D65, .313/.329, "white point", etc.

Gamma is the overall luminance of the white point created by these 3 combined RGB settings. It is Y, and for each IRE point in the calibration there is a "correct" Y value for whatever gamma you have chosen to calibrate to.

This is where ChromaPure has something that other programs I have looked at (at least the ones I own ... maybe the newer enhancements are different) do not. It has the ability to calibrate to gamma.

In my opinion this is the only calibration process that should be done aside from roughing it in with 2-point adjustments of R and B. It starts off with your 100 IRE, where you can adjust RGB, but only really should adjust R and B to get lowest dE. THEN it goes to 90 IRE, and if you look at the data you will see your actual Y and your target Y. You could have a low dE but Y is either too high or too low. This is where you adjust G. Then re-balance R and B to get a good dE. All three contribute their own Y to the total Y, so your actual Y will change with re-balancing. Green is a big dose of Y, red moderate, and blue the least of course.

You'll get a feel for it. Y will be way off and you'll throw in 2 clicks of green, 3 clicks of red, and 4 of blue. Then see how close you get.

So when Y is at the target Y, gamma is spot-on; and when R and B are balanced with G, dE is low. Win-win.

Then when you advance you go automatically to IRE 80. Repeat.

Couple of things:

If your 10-point adjustments are inadequate to get to where you need them, you can go back to 2-point and give yourself more headroom or footroom. Like you said, there are different ways to get to the same place. I'm sure there are issues with the different approaches that perhaps our resident pros might comment on.

My 10-point adjustments have a little spill over, so after I go through the whole thing I run it again and usually find some additional adjustments are required. This is especially true if a fairly large adjustment in one or more of the settings was required at the "next" IRE in the sequence.

Hope this is helpful.
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post #2439 of 5552 Old 04-21-2012, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smirshkahoven View Post

I found the attachment instructions, so here is a quick report of my current calibration status.

If anyone cares to comment on how I'm doing or what I might try to make it better I offer my thanks in advance.

I hope to find a way to reduce my brightness settings to match what the AVSHD indicates (44), but am currently at 46. I'm not quite sure how this happened, but at 46, I'm pretty close to .006 of 100 IRE.

Doesn't Tom recommend using CIELUV for WB?

Also, looking at your image, your gamma roams around more than it has to (see my above post about 10-point gamma calibration.)
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post #2440 of 5552 Old 04-21-2012, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Doesn't Tom recommend using CIELUV for WB?

Also, looking at your image, your gamma roams around more than it has to (see my above post about 10-point gamma calibration.)

No. I recommend using CIE94 for CMS. What you use for grayscale is a jump ball. However, CIELUV is a little more sensitive to grayscale errors, so I can see why some would prefer it.

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post #2441 of 5552 Old 04-21-2012, 04:28 PM
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Just to be clear. I have a Samsung HL67A750 LED DLP. I also have a launch DVDO Duo. So I would be all set with Chrompure with the auto-calibrate option and Display 3 PRO Colorimeter bundle with the DLP Rear Projection operation mode?

That should work with my LED DLP where I will just use the auto calibrate and it will give me excellent results?

I had looked into this last year but I'm revisiting it again and hoping to purchase the bundle this spring. If this has the ability to give me excellent results without me having to manually adjust a bunch of things.

It's been 18 or 19 months since my last calibration. So at this point it seems like it would make sense for me to put the money towards this bundle if it can give me great results with my RP LED DLP set.

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post #2442 of 5552 Old 04-21-2012, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

Just to be clear. I have a Samsung HL67A750 LED DLP. I also have a launch DVDO Duo. So I would be all set with Chrompure with the auto-calibrate option and Display 3 PRO Colorimeter bundle with the DLP Rear Projection operation mode?

That should work with my LED DLP where I will just use the auto calibrate and it will give me excellent results?

I had looked into this last year but I'm revisiting it again and hoping to purchase the bundle this spring. If this has the ability to give me excellent results without me having to manually adjust a bunch of things.

Yep. You are good to go.

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post #2443 of 5552 Old 04-21-2012, 04:39 PM
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Thanks

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Yep. You are good to go.

My experience using a Mits is that you can usually adjust the color luminance afterward and easily bring the dEs down. I also find that on my Mits 10 percent stimulus on grayscale often needs to to be touched up a bit when using the autocalibrate and the D3 Pro. Auto-calibrate works well, if you are being fussy you will probably see some quick easy opportunities to tighten it up a bit.

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post #2445 of 5552 Old 04-21-2012, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smirshkahoven View Post

I found the attachment instructions, so here is a quick report of my current calibration status.

If anyone cares to comment on how I'm doing or what I might try to make it better I offer my thanks in advance.

I hope to find a way to reduce my brightness settings to match what the AVSHD indicates (44), but am currently at 46. I'm not quite sure how this happened, but at 46, I'm pretty close to .006 of 100 IRE.

Hello I have talked to buzzard before and asked about properly setting the brightness with avs 709 hd black clipping pattern. 16 invisible (refrence black), 17 barely visible, meaning one click down and 17 looks like 16 ie black or one click up and 17 appears to obvious or 16 becomes visible. I also read that the brightness calculation method doesn't usually work.
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post #2446 of 5552 Old 04-21-2012, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

I also read that the brightness calculation method doesn't usually work.

That's correct. The reason is that you can't count on the display having a 2.22 gamma at the low end. You must do this visually.

However, here's another method for setting black level that works really well. Put up a 0% field on the display. Turn brightness up several ticks. Now slowly start turning it down one click at a time. At some point you will find that lowering the brightness control further will not make the screen any darker. That is the correct setting.

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post #2447 of 5552 Old 04-22-2012, 02:28 AM
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Why is there no choice of levels 16-235 or 0-255 as CALMAN?
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post #2448 of 5552 Old 04-23-2012, 08:44 AM
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Quote:


These (low overall dE and flat gamma) are not mutually exclusive, assuming that your LN52B750 has 10-point WB adjustments. If you do have 10-point, read on.

My LN52B750 has gain and offsets for RGB and CMS by color, not IRE. So if I set 80 (or 70) IRE and 30 (or 20) IRE for good greys, I am sorta screwed at 10 and 50 or 20 and 60.

I did read on however and wish the wife would let me go for a newer model set. Not in the cards at the moment.

The best I can get so far is what I have, which is 3 dE or less from 30-100, 5-6 at 10 and 20, a wavy gamma (2.14-2.25) that averages 2.2 and color that is a little red in the low and high end and blue in the mid-range, but averages about 6425.
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post #2449 of 5552 Old 04-24-2012, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smirshkahoven View Post

My LN52B750 has gain and offsets for RGB and CMS by color, not IRE. So if I set 80 (or 70) IRE and 30 (or 20) IRE for good greys, I am sorta screwed at 10 and 50 or 20 and 60.

I did read on however and wish the wife would let me go for a newer model set. Not in the cards at the moment.

The best I can get so far is what I have, which is 3 dE or less from 30-100, 5-6 at 10 and 20, a wavy gamma (2.14-2.25) that averages 2.2 and color that is a little red in the low and high end and blue in the mid-range, but averages about 6425.

That's pretty decent, actually. You might still be able to flatten your gamma some by doing your grayscale adjustment from the Gamma workflow where target Y values are shown. Some compromise will be involved, so try for your best dE and flattest gamma in the "middle" 30-70 ish.
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ChromaPure 3.0 - Coming soon to a calibrator near you! Posted @ Facebook.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

ChromaPure 3.0 - Coming soon to a calibrator near you! Posted @ Facebook.

I am afraid that this is misinformation. It is coming, but not that soon. It is still several months out.

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post #2452 of 5552 Old 04-25-2012, 11:32 AM
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Tom,

I have just bought an i1 Display Pro in the UK from kalibrate, how does it look when it come to upgrade?
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post #2453 of 5552 Old 04-25-2012, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I am afraid that this is misinformation. It is coming, but not that soon. It is still several months out.

Sorry, I thought it was the Official ChromaPure Facebook Page.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

That's correct. The reason is that you can't count on the display having a 2.22 gamma at the low end. You must do this visually.

However, here's another method for setting black level that works really well. Put up a 0% field on the display. Turn brightness up several ticks. Now slowly start turning it down one click at a time. At some point you will find that lowering the brightness control further will not make the screen any darker. That is the correct setting.

It seems like there are different methods for setting the black level of a tv. I used to use the calculation method before but this resulted in crushed black the 1% near black window not visible on the Color HCFR pattern. I have since changed my method. I think that some people are going off of your old instructions that you wrote about using a CMS . In that write up it mentions the calculation method for setting black level. I am sure that it was not your intention to mislead anyone the article perhaps could use updating....
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1369

Have calibrated flat panels for years but this is my first attempt at a FPJ.

Like the result so far, now back to learning mode on calibrating FP and Epson in particular.

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post #2456 of 5552 Old 04-25-2012, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

That's correct. The reason is that you can't count on the display having a 2.22 gamma at the low end. You must do this visually.

However, here's another method for setting black level that works really well. Put up a 0% field on the display. Turn brightness up several ticks. Now slowly start turning it down one click at a time. At some point you will find that lowering the brightness control further will not make the screen any darker. That is the correct setting.

That is how I have set black level for years. I get great results.

Hey Tom, have you heard of any 3D calibration disc's coming? I can't believe we don't have a 3D calibration disc available yet.

Ron
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post #2457 of 5552 Old 04-25-2012, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

However, here's another method for setting black level that works really well. Put up a 0% field on the display. Turn brightness up several ticks. Now slowly start turning it down one click at a time. At some point you will find that lowering the brightness control further will not make the screen any darker. That is the correct setting.

This is what I did with my JVC RS20 (which doesn't have a dynamic iris), but with the Sony1000 and a DI, this is less obvious, for the screen goes REALLY black with 0% IRE. Should one just turn off the DI and proceed as you describe? Or leave the DI on? E.g., with the DI on, the black leave changes dramatically when the 'brightness' scale is showing, compared to when it fades out.
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post #2458 of 5552 Old 04-25-2012, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

It seems like there are different methods for setting the black level of a tv. I used to use the calculation method before but this resulted in crushed black the 1% near black window not visible on the Color HCFR pattern. I have since changed my method. I think that some people are going off of your old instructions that you wrote about using a CMS . In that write up it mentions the calculation method for setting black level. I am sure that it was not your intention to mislead anyone the article perhaps could use updating....

Done.

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post #2459 of 5552 Old 04-25-2012, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronomy View Post

Hey Tom, have you heard of any 3D calibration disc's coming? I can't believe we don't have a 3D calibration disc available yet.

Something should be available fairly soon.

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post #2460 of 5552 Old 04-25-2012, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

This is what I did with my JVC RS20 (which doesn't have a dynamic iris), but with the Sony1000 and a DI, this is less obvious, for the screen goes REALLY black with 0% IRE. Should one just turn off the DI and proceed as you describe? Or leave the DI on? E.g., with the DI on, the black leave changes dramatically when the 'brightness' scale is showing, compared to when it fades out.

Leave it off.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

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