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post #1 of 52 Old 10-31-2009, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I just got the DVE calibration blu-ray dvd. i have never calibrated anything and know nothing about how to do calibration. Im a little confused on how Im suppose to use the test patterns with my projector (Pioneer FPJ1) can someone who has used this DVD help me out or some experience calibrators.

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post #2 of 52 Old 10-31-2009, 12:45 PM
 
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Have you tried the calibration FAQ? It's stickied, and it's not really a thorough FAQ but it will get you started on some of the basics, there's a bunch of good info collected there. Also, check the very thorough DVE manuals on their website, they're kind of buried. The older DVD DVE manual goes pattern by pattern and is pretty helpful as well.
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post #3 of 52 Old 10-31-2009, 12:46 PM
 
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Also, what is the rest of the source chain? There may be settings before the projector that are relevant (for instance if you're using a a Ps3).

That pioneer is the JVC, so you'll want to be in ENHANCED hdmi mode, and then change the white and black levels I think it's 6 clicks to get back to the correct levels. You'll see this on the patterns.
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post #4 of 52 Old 10-31-2009, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes Im using a PS3

What do you mean Enhanced HDMI mode?

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post #5 of 52 Old 11-01-2009, 11:15 AM
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You aren't doing "calibration" by using a test/setup disc and this question should really not be in the Calibration thread. "Calibration" requires instrumentation (a meter and perhaps a signal generator) and software. What you are doing with a test/setup disc is simply getting some of the user controls set as well as you can without doing any Calibration.

You should study other threads for info on using the DVE disc and for what settings to use for the PS3 for Blu-ray playback. You will just be wasting time if the PS3 settings are not correct. See the PS3 FAQ and/or the PS3 as Blu-ray player threads. I haven't looked for one, but there may also be a DVE thread.

Finally... the DVE disc itself explains in great detail EXACTLY how to use each pattern and what controls you can setup using the disc. If you view the content on the DVE disc and that still doesn't make sense to you, you probably need help and may not get what you need via forum questions. The explanations on the DVE disc are QUITE good and easy to understand.

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post #6 of 52 Old 11-01-2009, 12:18 PM
 
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Doug, it sure is calibration within the means of what an end-user can achieve with basic controls. And it certainly deserves to be part of this forum, this is where you learn about calibration. Enthusiasts do not always have the tools or money to do a complete calibration. And heck, neither to all "professional" calibrators either. You achieve what you can within the limits of your tools and the abilities of the display/equipment you have.

Saying that calibration REQUIRES instrumentation, or REQUIRES a particular level of instrumentation or some such thing, is unreasonably narrow and an arbitrary distinction.
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post #7 of 52 Old 11-01-2009, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Doug, it sure is calibration within the means of what an end-user can achieve with basic controls. And it certainly deserves to be part of this forum, this is where you learn about calibration. Enthusiasts do not always have the tools or money to do a complete calibration. And heck, neither to all "professional" calibrators either. You achieve what you can within the limits of your tools and the abilities of the display/equipment you have.

Saying that calibration REQUIRES instrumentation, or REQUIRES a particular level of instrumentation or some such thing, is unreasonably narrow and an arbitrary distinction.

I understand what you're saying and I agree this thread is for the basics as well as the more advanced aspects of setting up a display correctly; however, calibration is not the same as tweaking basic settings with a setup disc. It's a great starting point and enough for some, but it should not be confused with a full calibration that aims to get 100% out of the display.
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post #8 of 52 Old 11-01-2009, 07:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I understand what you're saying and I agree this thread is for the basics as well as the more advanced aspects of setting up a display correctly; however, calibration is not the same as tweaking basic settings with a setup disc. It's a great starting point and enough for some, but it should not be confused with a full calibration that aims to get 100% out of the display.

What is a "full calibration?" Where are you drawing the line? At doing grayscale? Gamma? CMS work? Only if you can achieve a fully accurate Rec709 picture and everything else is something less? If you're using objective tools to achieve a more accurate image, that is part of calibration no matter how far you take that on your own as an enthusiast. Now obviously if you're paying someone else to do this FOR you professionally, you'll want to make a judgement about just what you're getting for your money, but that's a different question.

The OP is asking about how to adjust basic user settings. Well, that's a pretty major part of a "full calibration" no matter how you define it, so it is still fully relevant whether or not he's going to have the ability to measure and adjust greyscale, or gamma, or color primaries or whatever. And these questions completely deserve to be addressed in this forum, which for years has been about intelligently adjusting a display and playback chain for the most accurate image possible, and it is clearly for enthusiasts who want to learn on their own and do what they can within their means, in ADDITION to explaining what else may be gained by having an outside professional handle the calibration.

A display adjusted with basic user settings can be reasonably accurate, and makes probably the biggest single difference and is the biggest value of any adjustments/tweaks you can do to an AV system. And it's what every professional calibrator ALSO adjusts as like basic foundation of achieving the most accurate image possible.

Trying to draw an arbitrary line about how much someone has to be able to do and achieve before it's "calibration" whereas something less is just futzing around as an end-user is not encouraging or helpful to anybody. The more you can do, the better. But by far the biggest step you can take on your own is to spend $30-50 on a test disc, learn a little bit here about how to adjust basic settings, and align your display as best you can. Beyond that you need equipment, and progressively more expensive equipment and software depending on just how advanced you want to get and what the capabilities of your system are.
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post #9 of 52 Old 11-01-2009, 07:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Chrisx510 View Post

do you know if there specific way my PS3 needs to be setup? I have never messed with the settings. Just plugged it in straight out the box and started watchin blu-rays

Yes, depends on your TV. If it is 24p capable, you want to enable 24p output. (edit read original post again, yes that's the JVC it is 24p capable, so you'll want to make sure this is on (i think it's "automatic" setting) in the menus. The ps3 menus are convoluted and many options, so dig around, i forget exactly where they all are).

You want YCbCr out, Superwhite ON.
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post #10 of 52 Old 11-01-2009, 07:54 PM
 
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also FYI here is the ps3 FAQ thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=931796
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post #11 of 52 Old 11-02-2009, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

What is a "full calibration?" Where are you drawing the line? At doing grayscale? Gamma? CMS work? Only if you can achieve a fully accurate Rec709 picture and everything else is something less? If you're using objective tools to achieve a more accurate image, that is part of calibration no matter how far you take that on your own as an enthusiast. Now obviously if you're paying someone else to do this FOR you professionally, you'll want to make a judgement about just what you're getting for your money, but that's a different question.

The OP is asking about how to adjust basic user settings. Well, that's a pretty major part of a "full calibration" no matter how you define it, so it is still fully relevant whether or not he's going to have the ability to measure and adjust greyscale, or gamma, or color primaries or whatever. And these questions completely deserve to be addressed in this forum, which for years has been about intelligently adjusting a display and playback chain for the most accurate image possible, and it is clearly for enthusiasts who want to learn on their own and do what they can within their means, in ADDITION to explaining what else may be gained by having an outside professional handle the calibration.

A display adjusted with basic user settings can be reasonably accurate, and makes probably the biggest single difference and is the biggest value of any adjustments/tweaks you can do to an AV system. And it's what every professional calibrator ALSO adjusts as like basic foundation of achieving the most accurate image possible.

Trying to draw an arbitrary line about how much someone has to be able to do and achieve before it's "calibration" whereas something less is just futzing around as an end-user is not encouraging or helpful to anybody. The more you can do, the better. But by far the biggest step you can take on your own is to spend $30-50 on a test disc, learn a little bit here about how to adjust basic settings, and align your display as best you can. Beyond that you need equipment, and progressively more expensive equipment and software depending on just how advanced you want to get and what the capabilities of your system are.

A full calibration would be one that optimizes grayscale, gamma, and color in addition to the adjustment of basic settings/options with a setup disc/meter. You can't properly adjust grayscale, gamma, nor a CMS without a meter. Even if you don't have a CMS, color/tint must be set via a blue-only mode or meter. Filters just don't work that well on many displays, often suggesting settings that are just plain wrong and/or too high.

In other words, a full calibration is one that is as close to a (good) professional calibration as possible and while there may be no exact definition, it certainly involves a lot more than tweaking basic settings and chosing the right presets and options. I'm not discrediting doing the latter, but I can honestly say there is much more to a calibration than that.
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post #12 of 52 Old 11-02-2009, 01:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

A full calibration would be one that optimizes grayscale, gamma, and color in addition to the adjustment of basic settings/options with a setup disc/meter. You can't properly adjust grayscale, gamma, nor a CMS without a meter. Even if you don't have a CMS, color/tint must be set via a blue-only mode or meter. Filters just don't work that well on many displays, often suggesting settings that are just plain wrong and/or too high.

In other words, a full calibration is one that is as close to a (good) professional calibration as possible and while there may be no exact definition, it certainly involves a lot more than tweaking basic settings and chosing the right presets and options. I'm not discrediting doing the latter, but I can honestly say there is much more to a calibration than that.

There can be but there doesn't have to be. Blue filters, for instance, can in many cases be just as accurate and precise as a blue-only mode, and is far simpler than trying to measure the luminances and chromaticities of all the primaries and white and setting color saturation via this method which is fairly advanced even for hard-core enthusiasts. The weaknesses of the filter method are a little exaggerated, and as long as you test the filter first you can easily compensate a couple clicks and come pretty damn exactingly close. And again, in many cases using a filter is just as precise as a blue-only mode and it is very simple to test the efficacy of the filter.

Keep in mind that for a long time professional calibrators might only have been equipped with optical comparators. We have advanced a lot since then, hardware has grown much better and much cheaper and has brought many things down to the realm of affordability not just for professionals, but for occassional calibrators and now even enthusiasts here at AVS looking to DIY. This is fantastic, but doing a basic calibration from just a test disc is still the largest single benefit you can get on your display and the best value by far, and it is still a form of display calibration. Is it taking things to 11? No. But then there are many people with older TVs or who cannot afford to spend several hundred dollars to have someone calibrate their display, let alone the hundreds or thousands to acquire colorimetry hardware/software themselves. And as we have suggested here on this forum for many many years, the best place for a beginner enthusiast to start is to buy a simple test disc, or even download the free AVS AVCHD disc, and adjust their display's basic settings. You can achieve a surprisingly great image this way, and it is a basic calibration. Basic? Yes. But still very effective and a fantastic value.

I would love it if every person would value and could afford to spend several hundred dollars on the very best calibration possible, but not everyone can afford that.

It would be a great shame if this forum changed to a place where the beginner enthusiast would be discouraged from learning from the beginning: the basics simply because some would dismiss it as somehow NOT related to calibration.

I am here to spread the love of high quality, accurate images, and to help other people achieve that by sharing knowledge and experience and also by learning from others here who are more knowledgeable than I. We were all beginners at some point. Never forget that simple fact. I want to encourage novices to do what they can within their means and knowledge. It's enjoyable, and it yields great results. If they then decide they want to take it to the next level, maybe they hire a pro, or maybe they really are hobbyists and acquire hardware of their own. Either way my aim is encouragement, not dismissing people for being beginners and chiding them for doing something that somehow isn't calibration when it certainly is part of calibration. We all start at the beginning.
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post #13 of 52 Old 11-03-2009, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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is the eye 1 tool easy for a new beginner to learn with? Or is it more complicated?

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post #14 of 52 Old 11-03-2009, 10:36 AM
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is the eye 1 tool easy for a new beginner to learn with? Or is it more complicated?

Easy to use, just not very accurate.
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post #15 of 52 Old 11-03-2009, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there anything that is accurate that a beginner can use and learn from?

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post #16 of 52 Old 11-03-2009, 04:51 PM
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Greetings

enhanced spyder 3 is good for plasma and crt

chroma 5 is good for plasma, lcd, crt ... flat panel and direct view ...

Ever hear of the cost time quality triangle?

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post #17 of 52 Old 11-03-2009, 05:52 PM
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enhanced spyder 3 is good for plasma and crt

So, how is it on LCD? Does the i1 D2/LT fair better with LCD?
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post #18 of 52 Old 11-03-2009, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I need somethin good for projectors. I have a pioneer fpj1.

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post #19 of 52 Old 11-03-2009, 08:08 PM
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Greetings

i1 pro is probably the best cheap solution where you don't have to be uncertain of the results.

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post #20 of 52 Old 11-04-2009, 09:01 AM
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Just so those looking for a "cheap" solution for a meter understand... Michael's version of "cheap" is relative to the $10,000 or even higher meters that many pro calibrators use. The meters he is recommending (other than the CalMAN enhanced Spyder 3 which also requires the purchase of CalMAN software) are in the $500-$800 price range. And they STILL have limitations (like not reading dark grays very quickly), though they are clearly much better than the $200 and less meters.

There is no "cheap" solution for calibration. Anybody trying to save money on calibration over typical pro calibration fees in the range of $300-$350 is likely to get either a terrible calibration or spend far more money than the pro calibration cost. Those who want to learn calibration just for the sake of learning something new and who understand in advance that they are going to spend more on calibration than they would spend by paying for pro calibration often end up with good results.

Also know... inexpensive meters change with time and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Their filters age and change and somewhere in the 2 to 5 year range, (depends on the meter, your climate, and how the meter is stored), the drift will be quite significant and if you plan to keep using the meter, it will need calibration and that will further add to the cost - and calibration is likely to be more than $100 for either of the meters Michael is talking about (Chroma 5 or i1-Pro). So everything needs to be considered - especially if you are thinking about this being a money-saving venture.

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post #21 of 52 Old 11-04-2009, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
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Also know... inexpensive meters change with time and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Their filters age and change and somewhere in the 2 to 5 year range, (depends on the meter, your climate, and how the meter is stored), the drift will be quite significant and if you plan to keep using the meter, it will need calibration and that will further add to the cost - and calibration is likely to be more than $100 for either of the meters Michael is talking about (Chroma 5 or i1-Pro).

I have the least expensive meter, the i1 Display LT. I keep it in two ziploc bags with some desiccant (3 silica gel bags) in the outer bag in a cool and dark place. Does this significantly extend the lifetime of the meter before if drifts enough to no longer be usable for calibration? What signs/indications would such a meter give when if has drifted too much to no longer be usable for calibration?

Last of all, what properties of a given meter make it unsuitable or suitable for color calibration? Is it simply colorimeter vs. spectroradiometer or is there more to it than that?
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post #22 of 52 Old 11-04-2009, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Im not trying to save money on calibration. I could have a pro calibrator do it. I really just wanted to start learning the basics of calibrating. I was planning on starting with DVE then the eye one etc..

Another reason I was trying to use the DVE disc is because some of the calibrators I talked to said I should wait until my projector has 200hrs on it. Another calibrator said I need to wait until it has 500hrs and another calibrator said It doesn't matter that it can get calibrated right now.

Once I get it professionally calibrated will I have to get it calibrated again at 1000hrs or 1500hrs or when I put a new bulb in?

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post #23 of 52 Old 11-04-2009, 10:31 AM
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Greetings

You could just find yourself one of those calibrator guys that are also big on teaching while they calibrate. You can learn a heck of a lot from them and bypass all the "I wonder if I am understanding that right" issues.

Calibration ain't forever ...

Just like oil changes and tune ups for cars are not a do it one time proposition.

Things change ... wear and tear ... stuff drifts ...

If one develops a good relationship with a calibrator ... they find that the retweak visits don't really cost nearly as much as the first time. Usually well under $200 for many calibrators and you see them every 12 to 18 months. (I hover in the $100 to $150 range)

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post #24 of 52 Old 11-04-2009, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Michael! I was thinkin I will have to spend $400 on calibration each time.

I think having a professional teach me while he's doing it would be great. I hope the calibrators around here are friendly. I've had a few bad experiences with some of the Home theaters stores around here. I dont know if its because Im young (23) or because Im not rich but a few places have been rude. I went to a store a few months ago to look at CIH setups and get more info on anamorphic lens etc.. And the guys made a remark saying yea its expensive $7k for a lens your not going to be able to afford it! Another time before I started my HT room I went to look at projectors and get info and they shot me down and said my room was to small and I didnt have enough money. They said I needed $14k for a projectors plus all other equipment. Before then I didnt know much about home theaters so my dream was killed but then I started researching online and found AVSForums and got some great info.

Any recommended calibrators in Nor Cal (Bay Area)? One person I really liked and had a great experience with while lookin at screens was Audio High in Mountain View,CA. Mike silver I believe his name is. Nice guy..Offered me to take home a anamorphic lens and kaleidascape system for a couple weeks to try out at home. I think he charged $400-450 for calibrations but I don't know anyone who has used him. His store is one of the only ones in Nor Cal to have the Meridian 4k projector. If anyone has a calibrator that they can recommend let me know. Thanks

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post #25 of 52 Old 11-04-2009, 05:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

A full calibration would be one that optimizes grayscale, gamma, and color in addition to the adjustment of basic settings/options with a setup disc/meter. You can't properly adjust grayscale, gamma, nor a CMS without a meter. Even if you don't have a CMS, color/tint must be set via a blue-only mode or meter. Filters just don't work that well on many displays, often suggesting settings that are just plain wrong and/or too high.

In other words, a full calibration is one that is as close to a (good) professional calibration as possible and while there may be no exact definition, it certainly involves a lot more than tweaking basic settings and chosing the right presets and options. I'm not discrediting doing the latter, but I can honestly say there is much more to a calibration than that.

Adjusting ANYTHING(from basic user controls to the things you mentioned) via a PATTERN IS calibration as far as anyone with the ability to reason is concerned. Of course it is not on the same level as the type of calibration done with meters & instruments, but it beats, hands-down, any adjustments made arbitrarily by eye.

Now THAT is NOT calibration - by eye that is.
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post #26 of 52 Old 11-04-2009, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Yes, depends on your TV. If it is 24p capable, you want to enable 24p output. (edit read original post again, yes that's the JVC it is 24p capable, so you'll want to make sure this is on (i think it's "automatic" setting) in the menus. The ps3 menus are convoluted and many options, so dig around, i forget exactly where they all are).

You want YCbCr out, Superwhite ON.

I turned superwhite ON..

For 24p output is that a setting I need to enable on the PJ or in the PS3? I went through the PS3 settings and con not find 24p output.

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post #27 of 52 Old 11-05-2009, 12:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Chrisx510 View Post

I turned superwhite ON..

For 24p output is that a setting I need to enable on the PJ or in the PS3? I went through the PS3 settings and con not find 24p output.

it should be in the ps3. it's in there, it may be buried deep. there are a lot of menus...

edit: just took a peek, it's under video settings, should be an option that says "BD 1080p 24 hz output (HDMI)" and that should be set to on
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post #28 of 52 Old 11-05-2009, 08:54 AM
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I have the least expensive meter, the i1 Display LT. I keep it in two ziploc bags with some desiccant (3 silica gel bags) in the outer bag in a cool and dark place. Does this significantly extend the lifetime of the meter before if drifts enough to no longer be usable for calibration? What signs/indications would such a meter give when if has drifted too much to no longer be usable for calibration?

Last of all, what properties of a given meter make it unsuitable or suitable for color calibration? Is it simply colorimeter vs. spectroradiometer or is there more to it than that?

You will slow down the drift with your storage method, but you can't stop it. Time alone will cause the meter to drift in spite of other measures. So you might be changing the inevitable from 2 or 2 1/2 years to 4 or 5 years.

The meter gives NO warning that it has drifted. How could it? Suppose tape measures randomly changed length while they were sitting unused in a tool box or drawer. Each time you took it out to use it, the length of the tape would be different but it would look the same each time you used it so there would be no indication whether it was accurate or not... unless the length changed so much the problem was obvious. So it is with the meter - unless the drift is so large there are visible problems even when the measurements look correct, you won't know if the meter has drifted or not. I should also point out that calibration services are not even available for some meters (Spyders, for example, not sure if that's still true or not, but it was 2 years ago).

It's the filter material that drifts - the filters that come with calibration discs also drift and won't be trustworthy after some period of time (2 to 5 years again).

The only way to know if a meter has drifted is to have a "known good" reference. That's what is used when a meter is re-calibrated. It's not something a meter owner would have access to unless he knew somebody who calibrated meters.

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post #29 of 52 Old 11-05-2009, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

You will slow down the drift with your storage method, but you can't stop it. Time alone will cause the meter to drift in spite of other measures. So you might be changing the inevitable from 2 or 2 1/2 years to 4 or 5 years.

The meter gives NO warning that it has drifted. How could it? Suppose tape measures randomly changed length while they were sitting unused in a tool box or drawer. Each time you took it out to use it, the length of the tape would be different but it would look the same each time you used it so there would be no indication whether it was accurate or not... unless the length changed so much the problem was obvious. So it is with the meter - unless the drift is so large there are visible problems even when the measurements look correct, you won't know if the meter has drifted or not. I should also point out that calibration services are not even available for some meters (Spyders, for example, not sure if that's still true or not, but it was 2 years ago).

It's the filter material that drifts - the filters that come with calibration discs also drift and won't be trustworthy after some period of time (2 to 5 years again).

The only way to know if a meter has drifted is to have a "known good" reference. That's what is used when a meter is re-calibrated. It's not something a meter owner would have access to unless he knew somebody who calibrated meters.

Well, slowing down the drift seems better than doing nothing at all and I suppose as long as I'm satisfied with the results the meter is giving me, I don't need to replace it.

I'm curious though, when it drifts, do all three dimensions get affected (xy and Y) or is it just xy readings?

For example, can gamma readings still be accurate after the rgb levels are no longer what the meter says they are (visible tints in grayscale despite low dE's, say slightly pinkish)? My meter isn't showing any such signs as it's fairly new, but it is something that's crossed my mind.
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post #30 of 52 Old 11-05-2009, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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I tuned Superwhite ON.. What exactly does that do? I watched the dark knight after I turned superwhite on and the picture looks a little different.

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