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post #181 of 252 Old 02-24-2010, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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"Calibration" of spectro's such as i1pro and CM most likely are "verifications" of in-tolerance operation, and most likely if out of tolerance it is simly replaced with a new unit or internal assembly. The "high" costs of "calibration" probably more than make up for the few needed replacement units. Most of the very specialised equipment I work with daily are "calibrated" this way.


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post #182 of 252 Old 02-24-2010, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimwhite View Post

"Calibration" of spectro's such as i1pro and CM most likely are "verifications" of in-tolerance operation

i1p calibration by X-rite would consist of sensor validation and lamp check. Presumably they're willing to replace the lamp and any other problem results in their "cannot calibrate" state (just guessing). The CM is not a "pro" unit, the lamp is "drift-free" and the unit is not intended to be repaired so X-Rite doesn't provide a calibration certificate or offer recalibration service for them.


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post #183 of 252 Old 02-24-2010, 01:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

i1p calibration by X-rite would consist of sensor validation and lamp check. Presumably they're willing to replace the lamp and any other problem results in their "cannot calibrate" state (just guessing). The CM is not a "pro" unit, the lamp is "drift-free" and the unit is not intended to be repaired so X-Rite doesn't provide a calibration certificate or offer recalibration service for them.

They are calibrated meters.
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All calibration is performed in SpectraCal's NIST-traceable calibration lab using a Konica Minolta CS-2000 reference meter.

A sensor will not be the same for each meter, therefore must be calibrated. The i1pro includes a calibration table and the CM uses the reference dark tile. X-rite will accept any meter for repair or with some meters like the i1pro or CM include validation but will not include a NIST certificate unless you have their license to do professional calibrations.
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post #184 of 252 Old 02-24-2010, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveMo View Post

They are calibrated meters.

Without a certificate a "calibration" is of limited commercial value.

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A sensor will not be the same for each meter, therefore must be calibrated. The i1pro includes a calibration table and the CM uses the reference dark tile. X-rite will accept any meter for repair or with some meters like the i1pro or CM include validation but will not include a NIST certificate unless you have their license to do professional calibrations.

I don't understand most of what you wrote. Are you suggesting that the calibration tile in the CM doesn't serve the same function as the calibration tile in the i1p base?

Regarding X-Rite. I've been speaking a bit loosely. They won't (re)certify a CM. When I spoke with them on the phone they said they don't repair the CM spectro. I suppose they could give you a discount on a new one and call it a repair.


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post #185 of 252 Old 02-24-2010, 02:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Without a certificate a "calibration" is of limited commercial value.


I don't understand most of what you wrote. Are you suggesting that the calibration tile in the CM doesn't serve the same function as the calibration tile in the i1p base?

The tile is used for the same purpose, but not calibrated the same. For the I1pro you switch to the reference tile and measure white using the calibration table, for the CM you turn to the position and click on the button to calibrate.
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Regarding X-Rite. I've been speaking a bit loosely. They won't (re)certify a CM. When I spoke with them on the phone they said they don't repair the CM spectro. I suppose they could give you a discount on a new one and call it a repair.

OK. I read here earlier in this thread someone had sent of a CM for repairs, but maybe they were just replacing the meter.
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post #186 of 252 Old 02-24-2010, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Use the sizes (or close) for Plasmas/CRTs used by Professionals (Accupel, Quantum Data/Sencore).

Hehe, I wish I could know what sizes those are from first-hand experience.

Anyone care to posit which of the window sizes on the AVSHD disc match these signal generators?
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post #187 of 252 Old 02-24-2010, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by noahabel View Post

Anyone care to posit which of the window sizes on the AVSHD disc match these signal generators?

The "standard" CalMAN or C-HCFR windows, not the (constant) APL windows although the Large APL windows might be large enough.


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post #188 of 252 Old 02-24-2010, 04:04 PM
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Excellent, thank you.

Oh, and about the thread on the foam "case" being worrisome, I agree. It is the classic microfiber dilemma. I do aim to keep the meter from moving while it's against the panel surface, of course, but all it takes is one stray thread-end to ruin your day. I'd imagine there would be some takers should anyone wish to create and market a "scratch-less" case for the ColorMunki with more mounting/counterweight options.
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post #189 of 252 Old 02-26-2010, 04:29 AM
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[quote=heckheck;18193593]I just need to circle back around and use the Argyll 'spotread' and ColorHCFR software (in edit data mode) to see what that tool thinks the color temp of white is now. Of course since I only have the one meter I really can't cross check (however the whites/grey look quite neutral to my eye).

Jim,

This is an interesting idea to use the CM in conjunction with HCFR although perhaps a bit tedious manually putting all the data in - one question is if it is easy enough to write a program/script that calls spotread multiple times and average the results for lower light levels to simulate HCFR's option that does the same. I think you might have mentioned this in another thread but if Argyll supports the CM and is under the GNU public license, it seems that the HCFR folks (or someone) could incorporate the necessary 'bits' in order to fully support the CM.


--tom
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post #190 of 252 Old 02-26-2010, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasl View Post


Jim,

This is an interesting idea to use the CM in conjunction with HCFR although perhaps a bit tedious manually putting all the data in - one question is if it is easy enough to write a program/script that calls spotread multiple times and average the results for lower light levels to simulate HCFR's option that does the same.

A set of simple scripts to harness spotread is an interesting idea. The script could prompt the user to change the input source (colors, grey levels, etc.), do some number of readings for each and average them and then create an output file that would be useful with HCFR. Unfortunately I can't find an option in HCFR to read in a whole set of readings for an unsupported meter like the ColorMunki. It looks like you still need to manually enter them one at a time into the GUI, very tedious.

ArgyllCMS comes in both Linux and Windows flavors. It should be fairly straightforward to write such a script for use under Linux. There are any number of scripting languages such as Perl or Python that would make it easy. I'm sure it could be done under Windows too, but that's not my forte. One thing I noticed about spotread is that although it provides the -x option to supply Yxy readings output (to the screen), it writes only XYZ and Lab readings to a logfile. Still not a problem as the script could handle grabbing the output and not depend on the logfile.

Alternately, although I haven't looked at the ArgyllCMS source, it might not be hard to just write a new native tool, which would be more professional, but a script would be the fastest to develop.

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Originally Posted by thomasl View Post

I think you might have mentioned this in another thread but if Argyll supports the CM and is under the GNU public license, it seems that the HCFR folks (or someone) could incorporate the necessary 'bits' in order to fully support the CM.
--tom

Yes this is the absolute best option that I did ask in another thread here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...529&highlight=

Kokap asked Graeme Gill and it sounds like it could be possible so long as HCFR is really following the GPL. I would love to see this happen, but it is really up to the HCFR folks as to if they want to pursue it.

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Originally Posted by kokap View Post

I asked your question to Graeme Gill, the author of ArgyllCMS.
His answer:

My only concern is that the HCFR project is not publishing it's source code.
While they are offering to supply it on request, it would be more obviously
compliant with the GNU if the source was freely downloadable.

Graeme Gill.

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post #191 of 252 Old 02-26-2010, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heckheck View Post

One thing I noticed about spotread is that although it provides the -x option to supply Yxy readings output (to the screen), it writes only XYZ and Lab readings to a logfile. Still not a problem as the script could handle grabbing the output and not depend on the logfile. Alternately, although I haven't looked at the ArgyllCMS source, it might not be hard to just write a new native tool, which would be more professional, but a script would be the fastest to develop.

Linux/UNIX is my area of expertise as well. I have a homemade command line tool (written in C at the moment). I use it to do a bunch of stuff to the data from HCFR (basically all the stuff that you see folks do with Excel spreadsheets since I'm not a spreadsheet guy either ). It is not GUI-based at all though. If I ever have spare time, it seems like I could integrate in the spotread program and have the start of a new Linux-based tool. Of course, then I'll have to figure out a way to take readings from a Linux box instead of my Windows laptop

cheers,


--tom
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post #192 of 252 Old 02-26-2010, 09:09 AM
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Ha-ha, I don't know how, but my friend has got the ColorMunki SDK.
In two weeks he did make the utility that could get all the possible spectro measurements: emission, reflective and ambient. In spot and strip mode.
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post #193 of 252 Old 02-26-2010, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Of course, then I'll have to figure out a way to take readings from a Linux box instead of my Windows laptop

Virtual Box

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post #194 of 252 Old 02-27-2010, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heckheck View Post

The LED may be used when doing a spot measurement in conjunction with the ColorMunki Xrite software, but the ArgyllCMS 'spotread' command also includes a -e option that tells the 'spotread' command that it is profiling an emissive display, and so I doubt the LED is in use (Graeme Gill would know for sure).

I have been using the spotread command in ArgyllCMS as follows:

spotread -e -x -v logfile


-Jim

Thanks a bunch, Jim.

Adding -e did the trick and turned off the LED. As for taking measurements, I'm just holding it at a 45 degree angle next to the screen so that it doesn't measure its shadow. I used the i1LT like that too, since i didnt have the projector attachment.

Since i have a retro-reflective gain screen, it would be nice to use the projector measurement feature on the colurmunki--I'm guessing that holding the CM at a 45 degree angle to get readings is probably less accurate with my screen--but i'm just thankful that argyllcms works with it at all!
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post #195 of 252 Old 03-01-2010, 03:28 PM
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any more objective data comparing the CM to other types of meters (C5, i1 D2/LT, i1Pro) on various displays? I just read through this thread and (no offense ) a lot of fluff but very little in the way of objective data. Thanks!

Has D-Nice posted his comparisons to i1 Pro (as referenced by turbe earlier in this thread)?

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post #196 of 252 Old 03-01-2010, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

any more objective data comparing the CM to other types of meters (C5, i1 D2/LT, i1Pro) on various displays?

Tom Huffman found the meter acceptable given its constraints and SpectraCAL is selling them as an entry-level spectro. Assuming that SpectraCAL has done due diligence I'm not sure what further assurance you need. I suspect there are very few people with the tools (a suitable comparison meter at the very least, ideally a calibration lab) and inclination (for good or ill) to conduct a useful comparison.

It hardly seems reasonable to to compare a CM to something like a Spyder, X-Rite tristim or DTP-94 and it has been compared to the C5 and i1p.


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post #197 of 252 Old 03-01-2010, 04:52 PM
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I'm not sure what further assurance you need.

just data... it's nice to see what kind of errors the CM would have versus something like the C5, i1Pro, i1 D2, etc. For example, for the home "enthusiast" would the CM be a viable, less expensive option vs the i1 Pro? Is it accurate enough vs the i1 Pro to be used as a "reference" for creating offsets for something like a i1 D2?

Quote:
I suspect there are very few people with the tools

I would be willing to bet there are many people with the CM and another meter with which to compare. I'm not necessarily looking for reference-grade tests vs a $10K meter in a lab, but things like "I calibrated my display with a i1Pro / Chroma5 and then measured with the ColorMunki, here is my data". Just numbers it's useful for the "home enthusiast" to know what kind of variation people get are getting with different hardware.

All it takes is someone who owns multiple meters to post the comparative data.

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It hardly seems reasonable to to compare a CM to something like a Spyder, X-Rite tristim or DTP-94

I couldn't disagree more. Tom (and others) have posted data comparing i1 Pro, Chroma5, etc. to the "budget" tristims. Why not the CM? How is it "not reasonable" for an amateur enthusiast user to be interested in data comparing the accuracy of the "budget" tristims vs the CM? It's not like it's $10K pro gear, you can get it for $350!

In what way is it unreasonable for me, as an amateur calibrator with an i1 D2/LT, to want to know what kind of accuracy improvements I would expect with CM, C5, i1Pro, etc? especially since this is OBJECTIVELY QUANTIFIABLE. People have already posted various data on the C5 and i1 Pro, since they have been around longer.... all I'm asking is if any calibrators/users who already own multiple meters have done any comparison runs with the different meters? So us consumers can make informed decisions? Isn't that the point of this forum?

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post #198 of 252 Old 03-01-2010, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

it's nice to see what kind of errors the CM would have versus something like the C5, i1Pro

It's been done.

Quote:
All it takes is someone who owns multiple meters to post the comparative data.

That's not useful. Really. Various people have posted why that's so.

Quote:
Tom (and others) have posted data comparing i1 Pro, Chroma5, etc. to the "budget" tristims. Why not the CM?

Because the point was to establish the merit of the cheap meters and that task is complete.

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all I'm asking is if any calibrators/users who already own multiple meters have done any comparison runs with the different meters?

Yes they have. My results seem close enough to Tom's but I'm not posting any data. As noted above there are reasons not to do so. It would seem no one else here is interested either.

I appreciate your interest and I apologize if I seem(ed) dismissive. Such curiosity is natural but I believe casual comparisons are not useful. If Derek (or even Tom) encourages CalMAN users to post comparisons I might consider it but probably still wouldn't.

By the way, you might have better luck in the CalMAN hardware forum.


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post #199 of 252 Old 03-01-2010, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

just data... it's nice to see what kind of errors the CM would have versus something like the C5, i1Pro, i1 D2, etc. For example, for the home "enthusiast" would the CM be a viable, less expensive option vs the i1 Pro? Is it accurate enough vs the i1 Pro to be used as a "reference" for creating offsets for something like a i1 D2?



I would be willing to bet there are many people with the CM and another meter with which to compare. I'm not necessarily looking for reference-grade tests vs a $10K meter in a lab, but things like "I calibrated my display with a i1Pro / Chroma5 and then measured with the ColorMunki, here is my data". Just numbers it's useful for the "home enthusiast" to know what kind of variation people get are getting with different hardware.

All it takes is someone who owns multiple meters to post the comparative data.



I couldn't disagree more. Tom (and others) have posted data comparing i1 Pro, Chroma5, etc. to the "budget" tristims. Why not the CM? How is it "not reasonable" for an amateur enthusiast user to be interested in data comparing the accuracy of the "budget" tristims vs the CM? It's not like it's $10K pro gear, you can get it for $350!

In what way is it unreasonable for me, as an amateur calibrator with an i1 D2/LT, to want to know what kind of accuracy improvements I would expect with CM, C5, i1Pro, etc? especially since this is OBJECTIVELY QUANTIFIABLE. People have already posted various data on the C5 and i1 Pro, since they have been around longer.... all I'm asking is if any calibrators/users who already own multiple meters have done any comparison runs with the different meters? So us consumers can make informed decisions? Isn't that the point of this forum?

I agree, the more information/comparative data the better.

Kagolu
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post #200 of 252 Old 03-01-2010, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by noahabel View Post

I'd imagine there would be some takers should anyone wish to create and market a "scratch-less" case

I have a piece of velvet between the case and my panel. Sadly this makes it even harder to rotate the sensor. I suppose I should check if there is much drift after calibration to see just how long you might go without doing a recal.


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post #201 of 252 Old 03-17-2010, 01:02 PM
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I currently don't see a bundle with just CalMAN Enthusiast + ColorMunki, only see CalMAN Enth + CM + Spyder3. Will there be a CalMAN Enthusiast with Enhanced ColorMunki for $899 deal?


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post #202 of 252 Old 03-17-2010, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

I currently don't see a bundle with just CalMAN Enthusiast + ColorMunki, only see CalMAN Enth + CM + Spyder3. Will there be a CalMAN Enthusiast with Enhanced ColorMunki for $899 deal?

The CalMAN ENthusisast + CM bundle does exist but it currently costs more than the CalMAN ENthusisast + CM + Sypder3 package so I doubt anyone would buy it. See: http://www.curtpalme.com/ColorMunki.shtm

The $899 CalMAN Enthusiast + Enhanced ColorMunki deal ($200 off) was back in January. It ended Feb 1. See this announcement: http://www.curtpalme.com/newsletters...an_5_2010.shtm

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post #203 of 252 Old 03-17-2010, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by kal View Post

The CalMAN ENthusisast + CM bundle does exist but it currently costs more than the CalMAN ENthusisast + CM + Sypder3 package so I doubt anyone would buy it. See: http://www.curtpalme.com/ColorMunki.shtm

The $899 CalMAN Enthusiast + Enhanced ColorMunki deal ($200 off) was back in January. It ended Feb 1. See this announcement: http://www.curtpalme.com/newsletters...an_5_2010.shtm

Kal

I guess I will wait for a similar deal to come again. Is there a place to sign up to have these new deals emailed to me?


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post #204 of 252 Old 03-17-2010, 02:24 PM
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I guess I will wait for a similar deal to come again. Is there a place to sign up to have these new deals emailed to me?

For what it's worth, I've never seen the same deal come back. They're typically only offered when new equipment is first announced and only then.

You can sign up to be notified of new deals right here.

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post #205 of 252 Old 03-17-2010, 02:53 PM
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For what it's worth, I've never seen the same deal come back. They're typically only offered when new equipment is first announced and only then.

You can sign up to be notified of new deals right here.

Kal

To date we have never had a sale. As Kal stated when we introduce new hardware or a new bundle we do have a promotion on it for that month.

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post #206 of 252 Old 05-22-2010, 06:29 PM
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The DPG 1000/1200 has patterns in 3 sizes. Full, standard window and small. The standard window is about the same size as most other pattern generators and cal disks. The small are 15% window.

heads up - I posted a DPG-1000 in the classifieds

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post #207 of 252 Old 05-22-2010, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by turbe View Post

heads up - I posted a DPG-1000 in the classifieds

and that has WHAT to do with the Colormunki??

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post #208 of 252 Old 05-22-2010, 08:52 PM
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My post was in reply to Derek's DPG post and other's in regards to proper pattern sizes/sources in this Thread ..

A pattern generator is very useful and complimentary to any meter, including the ColorMunki and the Classified option here on AVS is a viable option for anyone considering a ColorMunki / Calibration Software option.

-Turbe

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post #209 of 252 Old 07-01-2010, 05:03 AM
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Does this instrument have any artificial hardware/firmware/software limitation which can embarrass it during a work with WCG-CCFL displays?
What is the "UV cut"? (I think it has nothing to do with any wide-gamut LCD displays but I am not sure...)

I have an EyeOne colorimeter but it doesn't work on my new display (Dell U2410). I am considering to buy a ColorMunki Photo. But I heard some rumors about it:
- Not every ColorMunki is able to calibrate WCG-CCFL and LED displays. -> This could be a misunderstanding around the ColorMunki Create product. (Because it is a colorimeter with the ColorMunki name...)
- It won't do a great job with the low IRE measurements. -> But I don't have the point of reference to judge about this. Will it produce a worse gray-scale than an i1D2 can produce? Or will it be compensated by the slower measure process and the better overall instrument precision?

Would it be a good choice for display calibration?
I have a printer and a scanner as well. I don't really care about them but these calibration abilities won't be absolutely useless for me... But the main goal to calibrate my display well.

Any suggestions?

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post #210 of 252 Old 07-01-2010, 12:24 PM
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And what is this activation?

Quote:


This product must be activated prior to use. Internet connection is not required.

Quote:


ColorMunki Design includes an end user license agreement (EULA) allowing use of the software on up to three computers.

Activation required without internet access and the possible number of the activations is limited to three times?
I think it can be possible if the hardware has an internal memory for this, like the DVD/Blu-Ray players for region settings...

Am I rally able to use it for three computers only?

What would happen if I need to reinstall my OS (for example, I need a new motherboard for my PC, or I simply want to make a clean install)?
Do I need to buy a new new hardware or can I ask for an erase code?

Is it a misunderstanding? It should be...

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