ChromaPure v. CalMan - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 12:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gtgray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,423
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

You suggested you just needed the fundamentals so ChromaPure was (for you) superior to CalMAN. For someone trying to make an informed choice about these products your observations are a disservice (to both products). You are unaware of the simplicity available in CalMAN (click Basic) and are presumably unaware of the nuances (those items beyond the fundamentals) of ChromaPure.

Again this is all well and good for you but someone else reading your comments might think you have more than a passing familiarity with what you're talking about. This is not the ChromaPure thread this is the ChromaPure v. CalMAN thread.

By the way, if you want fundamentals with nothing beyond what's needed to calibrate your display then all the commercial products (and C-HCFR) go beyond your needs and you should use one of the precursor spreadsheets.

That's alright. I don't find much value you in your critque of my replies. HCFR crashed regularly for me. That is not in my list of fundamentals. Maybe you consider that a nuance. I also have a ChromePure enhanced Chroma5. The meter reads more accurately with the additional support provided in ChromaPure 1.3. That may very well be a nuance I just consider it good fundamentals. You don't like my position regarding the value proposition of a product which you are emotionally and perhaps otherwise invested in. SpectraCal's pricing strategy is also fundamental. I don't need to pay more for the same capability. My needs are modest admittedly. But spreadsheets oaky... that certainly is another extreme isn't. You are all about hyperbole on that point aren't you.

It is interesting that this whole comparsion thread came back to life upon the release of 4.0. In opportune for SpectraCal, but I did not bring it up. Huffman brings value to me beyond his application. He steered me toward the Duo as I was just about to pull the trigger on a Radiance. He saved me a ton of money as the Duo is getting the job done nicely for the $850 I paid at Amazon.

I did not want to beat on the value proposition comparison, here. On value ChromaPure slays SpectraCal offerings in my opinion at least. Tom's meter pricing, selfless advice these are all part of the ChromaPure value propostion. That ChromaPure is easy to use and I can add a spectro down the line for a minor licensing upgrade means that Cal Home is just not a comparable product .

So while you can nit pick my posts to death. You are really just beating on the messenger because you don't like the message.


I would add that there have been quite a few folks who have posted messages that are questioning or critical of 4.0. Look different strokes for different blokes. This is NOT just about underdogs and fanboys. I could still buy a SpectraCal product at some point. I was this close to buying a Radiance from them in April. I would have bought CalMan with it in a bundle. So I am not a SpectraCal hater.

X-Write on the other hand...

Just another blank signature.
gtgray is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 04:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
p5browne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sudbury, Ontario, CANADA
Posts: 3,916
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Liked: 194
The Factory calibrates the TVs before being boxed up. How and to what degree, we may never know? But, they could spend time and money to make it a Perfect Calibration, but that all changes the minute you put it in your Lighting Conditions and Room Attributes. Add on how you like to view your Video and there is no way Out of the Box is going to appeal to everyone! Just bought a LG 55LHX that was vastly Superior to my current 55LH90 (That up to this point in time I was more than happy with!) and Right Out of the Box was Fantastic! But continued viewing required me to now start tweaking the system to match my room. So until everyone has the same room and lighting conditions, plus the same viewing apptitude you will have to calibrate or leave things as they are! Have now spent considerable monies on Calman, Chromapure, i1Pro and Chroma5 and DPG-1200 Pattern Generator, only to find I DON'T LIKE the calibrated look!
p5browne is online now  
post #93 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 05:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Geof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Eden NY
Posts: 6,012
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

I'm glad you're happy but your comparisons are weak -- they even ignore the nuances in ChromaPure.

And speaking of nuances there are some nuances (and some significant differences) in the licensing terms between the two competing products. Each has merits and advantages over the other. I personally don't think this Calman vs Chromapure discussion only pertains to software. The whole enchilada entails software, terms, pricing, and support.

Geof
Geof is offline  
post #94 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 05:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bodosom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Niagara Frontier
Posts: 6,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

... You don't like my position regarding the value proposition of a product which you are emotionally and perhaps otherwise invested in. ...

I would appreciate it if you would refrain from speculating about me or my motivations. I'm quite confident I've had ChromaPure longer, and used it more, than you have. I have no trouble recommending it to the appropriate set of people.
bodosom is offline  
post #95 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 05:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bodosom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Niagara Frontier
Posts: 6,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

And speaking of nuances there are some nuances (and some significant differences) in the licensing terms between the two competing products. Each has merits and advantages over the other. I personally don't think this Calman vs Chromapure discussion only pertains to software. The whole enchilada entails software, terms, pricing, and support.

Indeed, if Tom doesn't support your meter then the decision is made for you. Likewise if you want to calibrate displays you don't own and don't want a CalMAN pro license the decision is made for you.
bodosom is offline  
post #96 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 06:07 AM
Super Moderator
 
Bob Sorel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 8,465
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 117
Quote:


However, now I find myself trapped going forward due to SpectrCal's pricing/product structure. I'm ok for the next year as I have a maintenance extension, but after that I will have to pay $500/year for a maintenance fee to keep current on the software.

Is this information correct? If, so where did you get it, as I have not found it anywhere on SpectraCal's site and I would think that it would an important fact to know if one were to consider buying the Professional version. And is there a "maintenance fee" for the enthusiast and/or home editions?

Speaking of price comparisons, let's assume for the minute that there are no "maintenance fees" and once you buy the product, you are all set. There is a huge variation in price depending on the gear that you own. Here are some examples:

1. If you own a Spyder 2 and nothing else, both programs will cost you ~$200.
2. If you own an i1 Pro and nothing else, ChromaPure will still cost you $200 and CalMAN will cost you $499.
3. If you own an i1 Pro and an Accupel generator (which happened to be my EXACT hardware up until last week), Chroma Pure costs $200 and CalMAN costs $2995...
4. If you want to buy a Chroma 5 w/software (like I did last week), it costs $695 for the ChromaPure bundle and $999 for the CalMAN bundle. Both are listed as enhanced meters, but I do not know to what extent the CalMAN meter is enhanced. ChromaPure has offset tables built in for Plasma, CRT, Sony LCD, Sony LED, Samsung LCD, Samsung LED, Front projection, and LCD generic. From the description on SpectraCal's website it seems as if the only offset table they provide is for LED calibration, but I do not know for sure (someone please correct me if this information is wrong).

To be fair, there is one instance that I know of where CalMAN can be the lower cost option - If you buy the CalMAN DPG-1200 Digital Pattern Generator. If you want to use automated pattern generation from a reliable reference source (as opposed to pattern generation from a DVD player that may or may not be reference), then one needs to buy either the Accupel HDG 4000 for $1600 (I think) or the CalMAN HDG-1200 for $699. I personally own an HDG 3000 and can attest to its accuracy, stability, ease of use, etc., but I know nothing about the DPG-1200, so I can not comment or compare. If one were to buy a Chroma 5/DPG-1200/CalMAN 4.0 package the cost would be $999 + $699 = $1698, and if one were to buy the Chroma 5 Pro/ChromaPure/Accupel HDG 4000 package it would cost $695 + $1600 = $2295.

But remember, until we get a final word on the "maintenance fee" issue, the cost over time could change drastically.
Bob Sorel is offline  
post #97 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 06:37 AM
Advanced Member
 
Citation4444's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Georgia Mountains
Posts: 886
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Is this information correct? If, so where did you get it, as I have not found it anywhere on SpectraCal's site and I would think that it would an important fact to know if one were to consider buying the Professional version. And is there a "maintenance fee" for the enthusiast and/or home editions?

Simply go to the "Store" tab at the SpectrCal site and see for yourself. http://www.spectracal.com/purchase.html

After the first year, the maintenance and support fees are $49, $125 and $499 for the home, enthusiast and professional licenses, respectively.

Bob
Citation4444 is offline  
post #98 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 07:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
derekjsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mukilteo, WA
Posts: 1,890
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post

Simply go to the "Store" tab at the SpectrCal site and see for yourself. http://www.spectracal.com/purchase.html

After the first year, the maintenance and support fees are $49, $125 and $499 for the home, enthusiast and professional licenses, respectively.

Bob

We are going to be putting up a page this week that clarifies our upgrade, support and maintenance policy. But a quick overview the paid maintenance is for major updates like going from v3 to v4 or v5 someday. Everyone is entitled to email and forums support as always. For updates point releases x.1 which we have every 3-4 months and bug fix releases x.01 which we have as needed.

Derek

CTO / Founder - SpectraCal Inc.
derekjsmith is offline  
post #99 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 07:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
nashou66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: West Seneca, NY
Posts: 4,275
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Bob the 500 dollar maintenance fee is for the pro version only and thats for v4, v3 is still a very capable program.

Also spectracal usually gives it pro owners a chance to renew the license for half of the 499 as an early bird type special. And this first time intro(v4) they had it where it was 249 for the pro maintenance fee and you could buy future years ahead of time for the same price.And if you upgraded from v3.7 to v4 you got it for 249 with the first year maintenance free as one would hope for.

I'm glad i got lucky in june of 2009 when i bought the pro package with the i 1 pro fro 699, so the upgrade to v 4 was another 249. But the number of times they helped out with me thinking i had a meter problem and them looking at my meter and testing it for no charge was well worth the overall cost. I might buy Cromapure as well just to see how it performs, but i just bought two Randiance Xs's to calibrate my CRT blend and the automation and true "3d" calibration the xs offers was the main reason i upgraded to v4.

Athanasios
nashou66 is offline  
post #100 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 07:53 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,954
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

4. If you want to buy a Chroma 5 w/software (like I did last week), it costs $695 for the ChromaPure bundle and $999 for the CalMAN bundle. Both are listed as enhanced meters, but I do not know to what extent the CalMAN meter is enhanced. ChromaPure has offset tables built in for Plasma, CRT, Sony LCD, Sony LED, Samsung LCD, Samsung LED, Front projection, and LCD generic. From the description on SpectraCal's website it seems as if the only offset table they provide is for LED calibration, but I do not know for sure (someone please correct me if this information is wrong).

SpectraCAL also provides CRT/Plasma, LCD, FP, LED, etc tables with their enhanced Chroma5s. However, there seems to be some issues with them post enhancement. I would love to see if Tom has a better soultion with his Chroma5Pro. I'm sure SpectraCAL ehanced Chroma5 owners feel the same way.
D-Nice is offline  
post #101 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 08:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bodosom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Niagara Frontier
Posts: 6,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

We are going to be putting up a page this week that clarifies our upgrade, support and maintenance policy. But a quick overview the paid maintenance is for major updates like going from v3 to v4 or v5 someday.

I trust the page will clarify what happens if you go off maintenance for a while and then want a major update.
bodosom is offline  
post #102 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 08:28 AM
Super Moderator
 
Bob Sorel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 8,465
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 117
Quote:


After the first year, the maintenance and support fees are $49, $125 and $499 for the home, enthusiast and professional licenses, respectively.

Thanks, Bob. I guess I should have scrolled down a little lower...

IIRC, Tom mentioned that major upgrades would cost ~$50, and there is no distinction as to what version you own.
Quote:


SpectraCAL also provides CRT/Plasma, LCD, FP, LED, etc tables with their enhanced Chroma5s. However, there seems to be some issues with them post enhancement.

What kind of issues? Either the offsets are right or they are not. The Chroma 5 offsets from Tom are custom built into the the program for you by Tom so that you access them from a simple dropdown when you initialize the meter. I don't have a lab grade reference meter to verify the offsets, but they seem very reasonable.

Ok, on another matter, I give up. I will now ask for help from the CalMAN people - How do I enter the offsets of my Chroma 5 manually into CalMAN? I tried going to tools/editors panel/create profile but my data format does not match the chart I can see at the bottom of the create profile dialog. Data profiles provided by Tom are in x,y for RGBYCMW format (which is what I would expect), while the CalMAN chart has XYZ vertically and IXYZ horizontally. Also, the instructions say "Then press the action button at the bottom of the Create Profile dialog to create the profile." but there is no action button, or any other kind of button at the bottom of the Create Profile dialog. I am again confused... I would really like to test out CalMAN 4.0 in action to compare the results with ChromaPure, but I need to enter those offsets in order to compare apples with apples.
Bob Sorel is offline  
post #103 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 08:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bodosom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Niagara Frontier
Posts: 6,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

... I know nothing about the DPG-1200

It's a WD HDTV Live with SpectraCal pattern images (i.e. photographs). Perhaps the VideoForge will be competitive with the Accupel viz. the VideoEQ versus the small Radiance.
bodosom is offline  
post #104 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 08:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
derekjsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mukilteo, WA
Posts: 1,890
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I tried going to tools/editors panel/create profile but my data format does not match the chart I can see at the bottom of the create profile dialog. Data profiles provided by Tom are in x,y for RGBYCMW format (which is what I would expect), while the CalMAN chart has XYZ vertically and IXYZ horizontally.

The format we use is the industry standard for tristim correction a XYZ matrix and is the same used internally on most tristim meters not sure what the ChromaPure format is.

Derek

CTO / Founder - SpectraCal Inc.
derekjsmith is offline  
post #105 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 08:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
derekjsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mukilteo, WA
Posts: 1,890
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

SpectraCAL also provides CRT/Plasma, LCD, FP, LED, etc tables with their enhanced Chroma5s. However, there seems to be some issues with them post enhancement. I would love to see if Tom has a better soultion with his Chroma5Pro. I'm sure SpectraCAL ehanced Chroma5 owners feel the same way.

The only problem noted is on the Kuro and the new Panasonic with the black enhancing coating they are using can cause some issues. We are aware of this issue and has nothing to do with correct tables.

Derek

CTO / Founder - SpectraCal Inc.
derekjsmith is offline  
post #106 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 09:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bodosom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Niagara Frontier
Posts: 6,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I will now ask for help from the CalMAN people - How do I enter the offsets of my Chroma 5 manually into CalMAN?

Have you visited the SpectraCal forum?

A profile is just a set of XYZ values for the primaries for two meters. The reference and the target. The assumption is that you have both meters and use CalMAN to populate the table.

Quote:


Also, the instructions say "Then press the action button at the bottom of the Create Profile dialog to create the profile." but there is no action button, or any other kind of button at the bottom of the Create Profile dialog.

Action in this case a generic descriptor not a button name. The two buttons are called "Single Pass" and "Multi Pass". If you hover over them you'll get a tool tip. I assume you do manual entry by typing directly into the Current Profile cells.

For people moving offsets from one program to another it might be clearer if there was a key.
bodosom is offline  
post #107 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 09:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Geof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Eden NY
Posts: 6,012
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

The Chroma 5 offsets from Tom are custom built into the the program for you by Tom so that you access them from a simple dropdown when you initialize the meter.

Picking nits, I was under the impression that the offsets were built into the license file -- and not the program (although the program may have been updated to read the offsets from the license file). Perhaps Tom will clarify......

Geof
Geof is offline  
post #108 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 10:55 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,954
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

The only problem noted is on the Kuro and the new Panasonic with the black enhancing coating they are using can cause some issues. We are aware of this issue and has nothing to do with correct tables.

I have zero issues with my NIST certified Chroma5 that I purchased for you guys last year on any display including the Kuro and new Panasonics. Their (Panasonic and Pioneer) AR coating is not the issue.
D-Nice is offline  
post #109 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 11:08 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,954
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

What kind of issues?

Visit SpectraCAL forums for details. Their also may be some threads on AVS.

Quote:
Either the offsets are right or they are not.

I agree. However, I can't say if it was done right or wrong. I just see from owners of these enhanced meters that something isn't correct.

[quote]The Chroma 5 offsets from Tom are custom built into the the program for you by Tom so that you access them from a simple dropdown when you initialize the meter.


Quote:
I don't have a lab grade reference meter to verify the offsets, but they seem very reasonable.

How does your Chroma5Pro relate to your i1pro? Although the i1pro would never be classified as a lab grade meter, your ChromaPro should be close to what your i1pro reports on WRGBCYM.
D-Nice is offline  
post #110 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 11:17 AM
Super Moderator
 
Bob Sorel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 8,465
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 117
Thanks, guys, but even though I have done quite a few of my own calibrations, I have no idea what an "XYZ matrix" is. I am only familiar with the x,y,Y format, and Tom's offset tables are very clear to me, as they use x and y correction values for 7 colors (red, green, blue, yellow, cyan, magenta, and white). From what little I can understand of what you guys have said, I assume that there is no way to use Tom's correction values in CalMAN. Have I got this right?
Quote:
Action in this case a generic descriptor not a button name.

I'm not quite that stupid (but close). I wasn't looking for a button labeled "action", but I was looking for something a bit more familiar, like "ok" or "enter" or "begin". Also, not to pick nits, but the "bottom" to me refers to the last thing before the window ends - the "bottom" of the create profile dialog has that XYZ matrix chart that I don't understand and the "single pass" and "multi pass" buttons are above it.
Quote:
Picking nits, I was under the impression that the offsets were built into the license file -- and not the program (although the program may have been updated to read the offsets from the license file).

I believe you are correct. My point was simply to let people know that the information in the offset file was integrated into the software itself so that you don't need to go looking to find and load some offset file in some directory elsewhere on your computer. The offset files are right there in front of you when you initialize the meter.
Quote:
Have you visited the SpectraCal forum?

No, I have not. My plan is/was to first learn as much as I could about CalMAN without reading any documentation, and failing that, to learn as much as I could from the included tutorial and help files. I failed miserably at the former and have been struggling with the latter. Unfortunately entering offset data manually was not mentioned anywhere that I could find, so I resorted to asking the question here.

Just to give you a comparison, I decided to try entering the same data into ChromaPure. It took me less than 30 seconds to figure it out by myself, but then again, that should be expected, as Tom's offset data tables in ChromaPure are in the same format as the offset data he provided on the Chroma 5 Certificate of Calibration. Apparently the problem here is that both programs use different formats for data offsets. I would probably have the same problem if I wanted to enter offset data from CalMAN into ChromaPure.
Quote:
How does your Chroma5Pro relate to your i1pro?

I don't know, but I plan on comparing them in a future session.
Bob Sorel is offline  
post #111 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 11:22 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,954
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Thanks, guys, but even though I have done quite a few of my own calibrations, I have no idea what an "XYZ matrix" is. I am only familiar with the x,y,Y format, and Tom's offset tables are very clear to me, as they use x and y correction values for 7 colors (red, green, blue, yellow, cyan, magenta, and white). From what little I can understand of what you guys have said, I assume that there is no way to use Tom's correction values in CalMAN. Have I got this right?

I'm not quite that stupid (but close). I wasn't looking for a button labeled "action", but I was looking for something a bit more familiar, like "ok" or "enter" or "begin". Also, not to pick nits, but the "bottom" to me refers to the last thing before the window ends - the "bottom" of the create profile dialog has that XYZ matrix chart that I don't understand and the "single pass" and "multi pass" buttons are above it.

I believe you are correct. My point was simply to let people know that the information in the offset file was integrated into the software itself so that you don't need to go looking to find and load some offset file in some directory elsewhere on your computer. The offset files are right there in front of you when you initialize the meter.

No, I have not. My plan is/was to first learn as much as I could about CalMAN without reading any documentation, and failing that, to learn as much as I could from the included tutorial and help files. I failed miserably at the former and have been struggling with the latter. Unfortunately entering offset data manually was not mentioned anywhere that I could find, so I resorted to asking the question here.

Just to give you a comparison, I decided to try entering the same data into ChromaPure. It took me less than 30 seconds to figure it out by myself, but then again, that should be expected, as Tom's offset data tables in ChromaPure are in the same format as the offset data he provided on the Chroma 5 Certificate of Calibration. Apparently the problem here is that both programs use different formats for data offsets. I would probably have the same problem if I wanted to enter offset data from CalMAN into ChromaPure.

I don't know, but I plan on comparing them in a future session.

XYZ data can be converted into xyY values. That is available in v3 of CalMAN. I'm not sure how it is in v4 as I abandoned it when it was labeled RC1.... but I heard it was much easier in v4.
D-Nice is offline  
post #112 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 11:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sotti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,636
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 174
If you want an xy,Y offset, we have that.

It's labeled as screen offset and it's in options.

It's typically used for using a meter with a projector, since it assumes that your XYZ sensors are accurate for the current light source.


Using an xyY offset isn't as accurate as an XYZ matrix, because the XYZ matrix takes into account how light seeps in through the filters for each specific sensor. xyY is just a global offset.

Example:
if the blue sees a little extra green, but the red sensor does not, then as you move from blue to red, you need less compensation for green.

Our method does this.
xyY does not.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
sotti is offline  
post #113 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 12:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bodosom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Niagara Frontier
Posts: 6,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Thanks, guys, but even though I have done quite a few of my own calibrations, I have no idea what an "XYZ matrix" is. I am only familiar with the x,y,Y format, and Tom's offset tables are very clear to me, as they use x and y correction values for 7 colors (red, green, blue, yellow, cyan, magenta, and white). From what little I can understand of what you guys have said, I assume that there is no way to use Tom's correction values in CalMAN. Have I got this right?

In ChromaPure you read WRGBCMY with your ref. meter, save the values, exit the program (what's up with that?), restart with your field/target meter, load the ref values and remeasure WRGBCMY. I assume the calculated values displayed are some intermediate step because the accepted way of doing an offset requires a correction matrix and some matrix math to minimize RMS error.

In CalMAN you can hang both meters, read WRGB ... that's it. I don't know if SpectraCal is doing a "traditional" correction or the four color method.

Note this is finding the offsets for correcting a field/target meter relative to a lab/reference meter. This is not loading display specific tables. I believe Tom loads them into the C5 and you pick the one you want and SpectraCal downloads them at set-up time.
bodosom is offline  
post #114 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 12:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TomHuffman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 6,448
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Thanks, guys, but even though I have done quite a few of my own calibrations, I have no idea what an "XYZ matrix" is.

There are two ways to correct a field meter using a known reference. One way, which is the way we currently use, is just to provide linear offsets. So, if the reference reads white as x0.314, y0.332 and the field meter reads white as x0.308, y0.327, then you apply a x0.006, y0.005 offset to field meter for white readings. You sample the rest of the spectrum of color and do the same thing.

The other way is to take a RGB reading of XYZ values using the reference meter and then a RGB reading of XYZ values using the field meter. Then you apply some matrix math (I can lay out the math if anyone is interested) to create a set of conversion XYZ values, which then using some more matrix math you can apply to the field XYZ readings that transforms them in to exactly what the reference meter read. Finally, you just convert XYZ into xyY for readout for the user.

The advantage to linear offsets is simplicity. I generally adhere to a KISS strategy, so I didn't want to make it more complicated than it needed to be. The weakness of linear offsets is that they only apply to the specific values you sample. We only sample RGBCYMW, so the offsets apply to these colors only. Fortunately, when calibrating home theater displays, those are the only colors we generally measure so that's fine.

The advantage of using an XYZ matrix transform is that it will work for ANY color you measure. You are not limited to a specific set of sampled colors.

Currently, I don't think benefits of using a XYZ matrix transform justifies the added complexity required to implement it, but we regularly review this type of stuff and may change in the future if experience warrants it.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

TomHuffman is offline  
post #115 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 12:47 PM
Super Moderator
 
Bob Sorel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 8,465
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 117
Quote:
If you want an xy,Y offset, we have that.

It's labeled as screen offset and it's in options.

You mean it is in settings/options...

At any rate, the screen offset only allows me to enter one set of xyY data (which I assume is for white), and I need to enter data for 7 colors, RGBYCMW.
Quote:
There are two ways to correct a field meter using a known reference. One way, which is the way we currently use, is just to provide linear offsets. So, if the reference reads white as x0.314, y0.332 and the field meter reads white as x0.308, y0.327, then you apply a x0.006, y0.005 offset to field meter for white readings. You sample the rest of the spectrum of color and do the same thing.

The other way is to take a RGB reading of XYZ values using the reference meter and then a RGB reading of XYZ values using the field meter. Then you apply some matrix math (I can lay out the math if anyone is interested) to create a set of conversion XYZ values, which then using some more matrix math you can apply to the field XYZ readings that transforms them in to exactly what the reference meter read. Finally, you just convert XYZ into xyY for readout for the user.

The advantage to linear offsets is simplicity. I generally adhere to a KISS strategy, so I didn't want to make it more complicated than it needed to be. The weakness of linear offsets is that they only apply to the specific values you sample. We only sample RGBCYMW, so the offsets apply to these colors only. Fortunately, when calibrating home theater displays, those are the only colors we generally measure so that's fine.

The advantage of using an XYZ matrix transform is that it will work for ANY color you measure. You are not limited to a specific set of sampled colors.

Currently, I don't think benefits of using a XYZ matrix transform justifies the added complexity required to implement it, but we regularly review this type of stuff and may change in the future if experience warrants it.

Thank you speaking English, Tom.
Bob Sorel is offline  
post #116 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 01:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bodosom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Niagara Frontier
Posts: 6,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post


Thank you speaking English, Tom.

Are you suggesting the rest of are not speaking English?

There are at least three different things being discussed. You could help by explaining what you're doing, then everyone can talk about that.
bodosom is offline  
post #117 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 01:46 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Bear5k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,239
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

At any rate, the screen offset only allows me to enter one set of xyY data (which I assume is for white), and I need to enter data for 7 colors, RGBYCMW.

Bob - For most meters, there is no such thing as RGBCMY. There are frequencies of light that are detected via either an optical filter in front of a light-sensitive diode (for a colorimeter) or with a "holographic" grate in front of a lot of what are essentially variations on photodiodes (CCDs, really, or related technologies; used in most spectroradiometers). The software for either type of instrument converts this raw information into XYZ data which then has to be converted into RGB depending upon the specific locations you are using for primaries and white point.

Let me be specific: if your red is reading 0.002 in x too low, what does "red" mean? Is that HD red? SD red? PAL red? Does the offset change if the underlying assumption of colorspace changes? As others on the SpectraCal team have mentioned, there are reasons to use this, but there are better solutions that:

- Require fewer readings to create,
- Are more accurate for a given correction, and
- Are more flexible given given a desire to move relatively seamlessly between colors and colorspaces.

When you start looking at what professional color correction software uses (e.g., Cine-tal) or even what is used at the operating system level for PCs (e.g., Windows, Mac, Linux), you see methods that are variations on XYZ matrices for reasons outlined above. If that means that CalMAN isn't compatible with someone else's correction file, then so be it. If that also means that we are a little less obvious for how to do something because we have erred on the side of accuracy, then this is likely to be an ongoing problem.

Having my pride somewhat wounded in this, I do have to wonder why the aversion to reading? Once upon a time, you considered the documents that would become the v3 extended help "hidden gems" in helping you understand calibration back when the DIY market was really just gaining momentum.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ght=ursa+guide

The app has grown SIGNIFICANTLY since those long-ago days (obvious difference number one: it is not longer built in Excel), but there are a lot of resources that the team has put into the hands of end users on what is a fairly complex subject. Expecting to jump from one app to another seamlessly seems to indicate that the subject has become un-complex somewhere along the way. We feel like we've made some major strides in doing this with things like interactive charts, but there's still a long way to go, even if you agree with us.

Color accuracy evangelist and CalMAN insider
Bear5k is offline  
post #118 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 02:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bodosom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Niagara Frontier
Posts: 6,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Tom, it's been suggested that ChromaPure C5s come with a set of offsets relative to something. Is that correct? If so what are the reference meter and display?
bodosom is offline  
post #119 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 02:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TomHuffman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 6,448
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Tom, it's been suggested that ChromaPure C5s come with a set of offsets relative to something. Is that correct? If so what are the reference meter and display?

Not the standard Chroma 5s. It's the Chroma 5 PRO option that you refer to.

The reference meter is an Orb Optronics SP-100.

I use several displays:
  • 2 Sony LCDs, one CCFL and one LED
  • 2 Samsung LCDs, one CCFL and one LED
  • The generic LCD is just an average of the Sonys and Samsungs
  • 1 Sony CRT
  • 1 Pioneer plasma
  • 1 off-screen measurement from a Stewart StudioTek using a Sharp front projector with a UHP bulb.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

TomHuffman is offline  
post #120 of 233 Old 06-13-2010, 04:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bodosom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Niagara Frontier
Posts: 6,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Not the standard Chroma 5s. It's the Chroma 5 PRO option that you refer to.

Thanks. Sadly I asked the wrong question. I'll try again later.
bodosom is offline  
Reply Display Calibration

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off