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post #1 of 32 Old 06-10-2010, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Greetings,

I've been reading so many posts about spyders and other tools, yet I feel I know nothing

After reading about the bad experiences peeps have had with the Spyder3TV model I decided I am not going to waste my money on that.

However, I can't really find anything about the Spyder3Pro model. I've read about the freeware software too but forgive me its all overwhelming since I've never worked or done any calibration.

I'm buying a new TV, 50" plasma from LG, a 50PK250. I will be reading up on how to handle the first few hundred hours, but after that I'd like to properly calibrate it. Point is, I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars doing so.

The Spyder3Pro is only a couple of tens more expensive than the SpyderTV. If that model works with the freeware software provided here, what will I be able to do? Following a dummy guide, will I be able to do a proper calibration for home theater use?

A question you may not be able to answer, but will it be worth it? I've read a simple hack will enable a THX option on this model which already gives a very good image. What will a calibration improve on top of that?

Cheers,
Ingemar.
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post #2 of 32 Old 06-10-2010, 01:34 PM
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Mouse,

This tread still has some good info about options for low cost color meters..

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11436

I'm not familiar with your set but it's very likely that all the settings you can adjust can be recorded so that you can revert back to them. This is a good plan because on some sets "reset" does not reset everything.

With that in mind you can check out the defaults,... check out that THX mode, check out the recommended settings at Tweakmytv dot com, and check out what you come up with when you run through test patterns on something DVE or even the THX optimode test patterns on some discs.

If you still want a color meter so that you can "calibrate" then again that post up top is still pretty relevant. I ordered a ColorMunki Create package which comes with a Eye1 Display 2 sensor that is well regarded. It's really cheap currently at $74 shipped. The sensor is "locked" some some software won't work with it but I've found software that does work with it and reads it like an Eye1 Display 2 proble which is typically more in the $150 range.

-Brian
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post #3 of 32 Old 06-11-2010, 01:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Brian,

Thanks for the tip on the Create.

Seems like a better buy than the spyder in the same pricerange.


But ... does ColorHCFR support this model?

Cheers.
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post #4 of 32 Old 06-11-2010, 02:02 AM
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Generally speaking I've found the spyder3 to be more accurate than the LT/D2.

I'm not sure what you mean by "locked"? The sensors themselves do not lock in any way as far as I'm aware all that matters is whether the software you choose to use supports that particular meter and occasionally certain apps lock you to a specific serial number of sensor ( less common these days).

And you usually have to install the driver for the sensor.

The actual sensor that comes with the spyderTV package is identical to the one in the pro bundle. If you are planning to use it with an alternative app then don't waste money on the pro bundle.

The spyderTV app is near useless. Any of the more sophisticated apps require you to learn and understand a bit about calibration. They won't by themselves calibrate your system, they are measurement tools that you reference for adjustment.

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post #5 of 32 Old 06-11-2010, 02:14 AM
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Mr D,

Locked in this case is pretty much the right word. When companies sell color meters they often package them with software and they will sell different hardware+software packages at different price points so they make an effort in some cases to ensure those items are being used with the limitations they are intended to have.

In the case of the ColorMunki Create you get the same sensor as the Eye-one display 2 but the driver is different programs like HCFR may not be able to find or configure the sensor.

I actually don't know if HCFR will see the probe... I'm thinking not. They say they are testing a new version that supports the other color munki probe ( the higher end meter) so maybe that version will support both. In any rate some other third party programs do recognize and use the probe as a eye-one display 2.

I read the eye-one display 2 probes are actually calibrated during manufacture while the entire Spyder line is not. I own a Spyder II and would not buy a Spyder meter again. Some people do buy them with Calman and in that case the sensor is calibrated to a better meter and profiled as part of the deal.

-Brian
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post #6 of 32 Old 06-11-2010, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post

Mr D,

Locked in this case is pretty much the right word. When companies sell color meters they often package them with software and they will sell different hardware+software packages at different price points so they make an effort in some cases to ensure those items are being used with the limitations they are intended to have.

I am well versed with the current crop of calibration apps.

There are some instances of apps being locked to the specific serial number of a sensor. Calman even used to do this. the actual sensor hardware does not implicitly have a lock built into it and its more likley that apps that do not work with certain sensors are lacking driver support nothing more than that.

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Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post


In the case of the ColorMunki Create you get the same sensor as the Eye-one display 2 but the driver is different programs like HCFR may not be able to find or configure the sensor.

I seriously doubt there is any actual difference in hardware , its probably just a case of the eeprom in teh sensor designating a slightly different name.

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I actually don't know if HCFR will see the probe... I'm thinking not. They say they are testing a new version that supports the other color munki probe ( the higher end meter) so maybe that version will support both. .

The colormunki photo and display models are completely different beasts to the D2 requiring different drivers and initialisation steps. No reason to suppose that support for one will suggest support for the other . You may as well expect i1pro support to be relevant to a D2.

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In any rate some other third party programs do recognize and use the probe as a eye-one display 2.

Which strongly suggests its exactly the same hardware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post

I read the eye-one display 2 probes are actually calibrated during manufacture while the entire Spyder line is not. I own a Spyder II and would not buy a Spyder meter again. Some people do buy them with Calman and in that case the sensor is calibrated to a better meter and profiled as part of the deal.

-Brian

Yes I'm very familiar with all of these sensors and my spyder 3 definitely seems to be more accurate than my LT and its not a refined model from spectracal. In fact I have a spyder 2 from years back which also seems to be on a par with the LT and more accurate in certain circumstances.

I've checked all my sensors agains a philips color analyser and a minolta CS200 and I got very good readings with the spyder 2. So they are obviously not all terrible.

The only sensor I tried that was more accurate than the spyder3 was a colormunki phot and even then I'd have been hard pushed to dicern any difference.

As to the original poster don't waste money on the spyder3pro package when the spyder3TV package has the same hardware. The spyder3 itself seems to be a perfectly decent sensor relative to the D2 and variants.

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post #7 of 32 Old 06-11-2010, 04:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

As to the original poster don't waste money on the spyder3pro package when the spyder3TV package has the same hardware. The spyder3 itself seems to be a perfectly decent sensor relative to the D2 and variants.

Mr.D,

I appreciate your opinion on the spyder3tv, but I can't help but wonder if perhaps you are bit biased because you happen to have a proper model and therefore asume all models are as good as yours? In the threads quoted below you can read that a test has indicated that about 1/3 of the Spyder3s seem be way off, beyond acceptable levels.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1052519
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1039159

Personally, i think having a 33% chance of getting a dodgy model is too big a gamble, especially if there is no way for me to test it and have it replaced should it be off. Resellers don't seem to give any warranty on these models accuracy.

If the Pro is really the same as the TV I won't be gambling my money on either model.

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I seriously doubt there is any actual difference in hardware , its probably just a case of the eeprom in teh sensor designating a slightly different name.

I think you are correct. Many vendors that lock hardware use an eeprom in this manner. What is also possible is that the device forces a certain handshake and simply won't work without a proper response from the driver. So wether programs like ColorHCFR work with this particular sensor is a valid question. The thread below seem to suggest that it won't work with this particular program, but a definite answer has not been given.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1122943

In the link below someone figured out a way to use the Colormunki Create sensor with his software and detects it as an EyeOne Display2.
http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/ArgyllDoc.html

Unfortunately its not explained how he did it but maybe he is willing to share it with the ColorHCFR devs?

Cheers,
Ingemar.
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post #8 of 32 Old 06-11-2010, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

I seriously doubt there is any actual difference in hardware , its probably just a case of the eeprom in teh sensor designating a slightly different name.


The colormunki photo and display models are completely different beasts to the D2 requiring different drivers and initialisation steps. No reason to suppose that support for one will suggest support for the other . You may as well expect i1pro support to be relevant to a D2.

Hi,... I should get the meter today but I think you're exactly right the epprom in the sensor identifies it under a new name and this effectively keeps many programs from detecting it.

I know the colormunki photo is different from the D2 but I was refering to a quote from HCFR developers that a new version with colormunki support was in the works. I assume they are talking about the colormunki spectro device but it's possible they would add support for both of the newer meters.

Babelcolor was designed mostly for the i1pro but reads the D2 and all other x-rite meters too.

When I get the ColorMunki Create today I'll try it with HCFR, BabelColor, and ArygllCMS and see what's up.

If I have to take reading using Argyllcms and put the data in HCFR that's not a problem for me. Clearly,... that's less nice than having it done for me by HCFR but it's still not an issue. Most of the time I will be balancing 40 and 90 IRE and only when I "think" I'm done will I take a sweep and then load the data into HCFR and look at the graphs.

Anyways,.. Must be nice to have access to all that hardware.
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post #9 of 32 Old 06-11-2010, 12:08 PM
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Hi,

To update, I got the colormunki create package today and it mostly doesn't work with anything other than it's own software and Argyllcms.

I wouldn't buy it (If I hadn't already bought it that is.)
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post #10 of 32 Old 06-12-2010, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
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Hi,

To update, I got the colormunki create package today and it mostly doesn't work with anything other than it's own software and Argyllcms.

I wouldn't buy it (If I hadn't already bought it that is.)

Works fine with CalMAN v3 and v4 as does every X-Rite meter in production.

Derek

CTO / Founder - SpectraCal Inc.
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post #11 of 32 Old 06-12-2010, 11:39 AM
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Works fine with CalMAN v3 and v4 as does every X-Rite meter in production.

Yeah,... I need a solution because I want to tune my projector and my old Spyder II reads yellow on the low end. So, I am shopping still.

Some Calman Display 2 package could be perfect.

Or maybe if a HCFR release supports the ColorMunki Specto device... That looks like a great combo to me. I don't mind waiting for measurements on the low end. I love how that ColorMunki will do everything else in sight too like the printer, monitor, and even give you the color of a match box car.

I see there's already ColorMunki Spectro Calman packages... Pretty tasty looking if you ask me.

-Brian
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post #12 of 32 Old 06-15-2010, 04:06 PM
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What is the sensitivity or dynamic range of Colormunki? The dynamic range for a Spyder 3 is 0.02 cd/m2 to 5000 cd/m2, for a display 2 is 0.02 to 3000 cd/m2.

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post #13 of 32 Old 06-15-2010, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Federico View Post

What is the sensitivity or dynamic range of Colormunki? The dynamic range for a Spyder 3 is 0.02 cd/m2 to 5000 cd/m2, for a display 2 is 0.02 to 3000 cd/m2.

Federico

Same as the Display2

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post #14 of 32 Old 06-18-2010, 09:14 AM
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Same as the Display2

Same as the Dispaly2? Well if that is correct then Colormunki is the best choice overall because been an spectroradiometer it won't loose the calibration and has the sensitivity much highger than the i1Pro at a much lower price. The i1Pro dynamic range is 0.2 cd/m2-300 cd/m2, ten times less sentive than the Colormunki. For me the only problen is that it doesn't work with Colorfact nor with Chromapure. I guess I will have to buy Calman. Is the version 3 still avaiable?

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post #15 of 32 Old 06-18-2010, 09:40 AM
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Not true, you misunderstood him, he was reffereing the the Colormunki create, which is a D2. Its the same probe.

Look on the spectrcal site for all the probes stats.

http://www.spectracal.com/ColorMunki.html

And what you should look at is the Spectral data range.

I1 Pro
http://www.spectracal.com/eyeone-pro.html

i1 pro
Spectral data: Range: 380 to 730 nm in 10nm steps

Colormukni Spectro

Spectral Range
Emissive: 400 nm to 700 nm,Spectral Interval 10 nm

there are other factors as well, the best is to have both a tri stimulus and a spectro in your arsenal.

Nashou
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post #16 of 32 Old 06-18-2010, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federico View Post

Same as the Dispaly2? Well if that is correct then Colormunki is the best choice overall because been an spectroradiometer it won't loose the calibration and has the sensitivity much highger than the i1Pro at a much lower price. The i1Pro dynamic range is 0.2 cd/m2-300 cd/m2, ten times less sentive than the Colormunki. For me the only problen is that it doesn't work with Colorfact nor with Chromapure. I guess I will have to buy Calman. Is the version 3 still avaiable?

Federico

I was referring to the ColorMunki create which is a rebadged Display2.

As for the ColorMunki spectro it has similar specs to the i1Pro.

Yes CalMAN v3 is still available but the CalMAN v4 Home Edition has support for your consumer level tristim and the ColorMunki spectro. So with v4 home you get the best of both worlds with a single license for low cost tristims and a spectro for profiling.

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post #17 of 32 Old 06-18-2010, 12:19 PM
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Thanks for the aclaration Nashou and Derek.

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post #18 of 32 Old 01-12-2012, 11:01 AM
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I just ordered the Spyder4/Pro, but also right afterwards realized that their website is not correct -there is currently NO software for TV. So, does anyone have any idea what other TV software will work with it or ?? I can't believe there are two references to TV with an upgrade, but it is not available (BTW, I spoke to someone and they said, literally, "later in the year". Not sure whether to return it or keep it for "later in the year".
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I just ordered the Spyder4/Pro, but also right afterwards realized that their website is not correct -there is currently NO software for TV. So, does anyone have any idea what other TV software will work with it or ?? I can't believe there are two references to TV with an upgrade, but it is not available (BTW, I spoke to someone and they said, literally, "later in the year". Not sure whether to return it or keep it for "later in the year".

We don't have the SDK for the spyder4 yet, but should be getting it soon.

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post #20 of 32 Old 01-14-2012, 12:18 PM
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We don't have the SDK for the spyder4 yet, but should be getting it soon.

We just got it so look for an announcement soon on this

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We don't have the SDK for the spyder4 yet, but should be getting it soon.

Hopefully 'SDK' is a technical term?
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post #22 of 32 Old 01-14-2012, 03:31 PM
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Hopefully 'SDK' is a technical term?

Software Development Kit

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post #23 of 32 Old 01-15-2012, 11:53 AM
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Hopefully 'SDK' is a technical term?

As Joel pointed out “Software Development Kit.”

This is what we license from manufacturers to support their hardware. In most cases we have to sign a NDA or some other restrictive license to gain access. In some cases you also have to pay a fee, this helps keep out the curious but not serious. The SDK includes documentation on the communications protocol, sample code, unlock keys and devices drivers if needed.

With the CalMAN architecture we use an hardware abstraction layer to help with interfacing with many different types of protocols. On one side of the abstraction layer we have code to deal with each manufacturers protocol and specifics. On the other side we have a common control set so the CalMAN IO and UI layers don’t need to be changed. This is a fairly common practice today for most software companies that know in advance they will need to be supporting many different types of devices.

Anyhow yes we will have support for the Spyder4 just can’t say how soon. Look for a press release when we officially have support and the specifics.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

As Joel pointed out Software Development Kit.

This is what we license from manufacturers to support their hardware. In most cases we have to sign a NDA or some other restrictive license to gain access. In some cases you also have to pay a fee, this helps keep out the curious but not serious. The SDK includes documentation on the communications protocol, sample code, unlock keys and devices drivers if needed.

With the CalMAN architecture we use an hardware abstraction layer to help with interfacing with many different types of protocols. On one side of the abstraction layer we have code to deal with each manufacturers protocol and specifics. On the other side we have a common control set so the CalMAN IO and UI layers don't need to be changed. This is a fairly common practice today for most software companies that know in advance they will need to be supporting many different types of devices.

Anyhow yes we will have support for the Spyder4 just can't say how soon. Look for a press release when we officially have support and the specifics.

Hi Derek

Thank you very much for this detailed explanation as to how the whole process works.

As consumers we are often 'left in the dark' regarding the methodology so there is inevitable speculation especially when NDA's are mentioned let alone implemented.

Hopefully it will prove to be a worthwhile exercise and give you yet another string to the bow you can offer for us to choose from.

Peter
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post #25 of 32 Old 01-26-2012, 04:25 PM
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Anyone hear when Spyder4 TV software might be released?
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post #26 of 32 Old 01-26-2012, 05:42 PM
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CalMAN v4.6 Spyder 4 development work


LL

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post #27 of 32 Old 01-26-2012, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post


Or maybe if a HCFR release supports the ColorMunki Specto device...

-Brian

HCFR hasn't done any updates for years if I am correct..I wouldnt hold them to do anything anytime soon - I wonder if they have gone to do other things

Rich L

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post #28 of 32 Old 01-26-2012, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

CalMAN v4.6 Spyder 4 development work


Is this probe better than the D3 ?
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post #29 of 32 Old 01-27-2012, 05:02 AM
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It looks identical to the Spyder 3.

Jason
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post #30 of 32 Old 01-27-2012, 08:41 AM
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It looks identical to the Spyder 3.

Jason

The Spyder 4 has the same body as the Spyder 3 but has updated internals and firmware.

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