Is it really worth it to get prof. calibration vs DVE? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 24 Old 08-01-2010, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
CitznFish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 215
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I really feel like I'm not getting the best picture out of my LCD TV. ( Samsung LN-T5271F ) Every time I go into BB it seems like their TV's have a much crisper/richer picture. I'm nervous about spending $200 on a BB calibration or even more $$$ on someone else. I can get the DVE Blu Ray for $15. But even then will I notice any difference over let say a tweaktv.com suggested setting?

I feel like maybe I will never be satisfied, or always think that my picture is sub par.
CitznFish is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 24 Old 08-01-2010, 09:06 PM
Advanced Member
 
_Noah_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Auburn Hills, MI
Posts: 525
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
For $15 try the DVE disk. I've never used DVE, but I have used the older Avia disk and I think it helped a lot. There is one big advantage of using a disk yourself vs. using settings from any website. YOU make the adjustments to YOUR tv in YOUR room based on the disk's provided charts/graphs rather than follow what settings worked for another unknown person's personal preference.

Just my personal opinion from my past experience.
_Noah_ is offline  
post #3 of 24 Old 08-01-2010, 09:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
GeorgeAB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 3,273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Judging from your comments, it appears you don't have a clear concept of what display calibration really is for. Please review and digest this "sticky" thread from the top of this section of the forum: 'Display Calibration: Root Fundamentals.' You could also spend some time in another "sticky" thread: 'Customer Reports About Their Professional Calibrations.' Enjoy.
GeorgeAB is offline  
post #4 of 24 Old 08-01-2010, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
CitznFish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 215
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

Judging from your comments, it appears you don't have a clear concept of what display calibration really is for. Please review and digest this "sticky" thread from the top of this section of the forum: 'Display Calibration: Root Fundamentals.' You could also spend some time in another "sticky" thread: 'Customer Reports About Their Professional Calibrations.' Enjoy.

Thanks, and I understand what you're trying to push here. It is your business after all. But to the casual observer, am I going to get drastically noticeable differences between using a video like DVE or paying up to $400 for a professional?
CitznFish is offline  
post #5 of 24 Old 08-01-2010, 10:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sotti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,585
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitznFish View Post

I really feel like I'm not getting the best picture out of my LCD TV. ( Samsung LN-T5271F ) Every time I go into BB it seems like their TV's have a much crisper/richer picture. I'm nervous about spending $200 on a BB calibration or even more $$$ on someone else. I can get the DVE Blu Ray for $15. But even then will I notice any difference over let say a tweaktv.com suggested setting?

I feel like maybe I will never be satisfied, or always think that my picture is sub par.

The TV's in best buy are typically way off and have never been calibrated and are in demo/store mode.

Part of what makes them pop is their settings (not that they are accurate, but they do make content pop) the other part is the demo content itself.

Now on to the disc vs pro calibrator.
From what you say in your last line, I believe that is where a pro calibrator could help you, but they'd need to be the right one. It sounds like you need someone to walk you through all the adjustments your set is capable of, what the best settings are, but more importantly why the best settings are the way they are.

Probably the biggest thing I picked up from the THX calibration course is that the job of the calibrator is primarly to educate the customer about the science side of the calibration to help them understand what it means to have an accurate picture. That way you will feel completely confident that the TV is being left with the best possible settings when the calibrator walks out the door.

OTOH you could get into it yourself. If you enjoy learning the how's and why's of video and don't mine burning your own time teaching yourself. Grabbing the DVE disc and walking through it and really paying attention to the material would be a great first step. After that the next step would be getting a meter and some software (You can't do grayscale by eye).

Whatever you choose, there is no wrong answer. Just knowing that you're set can be calibrated is a great first step.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
sotti is offline  
post #6 of 24 Old 08-01-2010, 11:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Michael TLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: THX/ISF Calibrationist/Instructor, Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,726
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Greetings

I've had a number of clients that used a test disc like DVE first. They all claimed they followed the instructions correctly and knew what they were doing. Turns out half of them got it wrong ... but they all told me they could follow instructions.

So the question is ... which one of these will you be? The guy that follows the instructions correctly ... or the guy that doesn't. In both cases, they all were sure they did it right.

If you really do get it right, you will get about 50 to 60% of the way there.

If ... If ... If ...

The right calibrator will get you to the right answers ... and you will understand the questions that lead to those answers.

The wrong calibrator will get you to the same right answers (maybe), but you will not understand the questions ... so will those right answers have any value for you?

Like helping you with a math problem by pouring a bucket full on numbers on your table and walking out. Somewhere in that pile of numbers is the correct answer ...

Regards

Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
ISF/THX/TLV Video Instructor
The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

Michael TLV is offline  
post #7 of 24 Old 08-02-2010, 12:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzard767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Naples, FL & Wausau, WI
Posts: 3,563
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitznFish View Post

Thanks, and I understand what you're trying to push here. It is your business after all. But to the casual observer, am I going to get drastically noticeable differences between using a video like DVE or paying up to $400 for a professional?

Let me give you the perspective from someone who isn't in it for profit. I'm an enthusiast with moderate equipment (meter and software). The difference between a display not close to standards compared to one properly calibrated is night and day. You can use a calibration disc for brightness, contrast, and sharpness with a good deal of accuracy, but when it comes to grayscale, color gamut, and gamma you'll need more. You might possibly have a TV that is accurate as it is but the odds are against you.

I had a DLP calibrated by the Geeks and the result was much less than satisfactory so I decided to become a do it yourselfer and I'm glad I did. There's a time consuming learning curve so it's not for everyone, but I figure I'm going to calibrate each of my TVs at least once a year so the unit cost isn't going to be much. Even at my level, the results I have obtained have been reasonably good.

Yes, a big improvement in picture quality can be made with a proper calibration. You are a skeptic so maybe you can make a deal with a pro. Find a local calibrator with good references and ask him if he would take grayscale and gamut measurements for a small fee with the provision that if he can show you how far off your display is you'll hire him to do a full calibration. I can practically guarantee you that once he explains Delta E as well as showing you where your TV resides on a CIE chart you'll hire him.

Once you experience and get used to a calibrated picture you'll never want it any other way if you are a critical viewer.

Buzz

Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 

buzzard767 is online now  
post #8 of 24 Old 08-02-2010, 12:15 AM
Senior Member
 
gerianne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Watertown, CT
Posts: 318
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Why Professional Calibration is better...

Don't know if this will add anything to the discussion, but here's an excerpt from my Web site regarding PROFESSIONAL calibration.

"Your new high-definition display is a wonder of modern technology and is designed to provide you with years of enjoyment. Manufacturers of these high-definition devices work very hard to make a product that has the potential to provide you with a superb picture and is affordable at the same time.

Unfortunately, your new HDTV or projector is not optimized to give you the best picture when it comes from the factory (out of the box) because there are some things TV manufacturers can't possibly know:

1) How will you be using your equipment?

- To watch broadcast television (cable/satellite), DVDs, and Blu-rays?
- For gaming or home videos?
- As a computer monitor?
- All of these?

2) Where you will be using your high-definition equipment and how your room will be lighted?

- Do you watch your high definition displays during the day in a bright room, or at night?
- What kind of lighting do you have in your home theater room, and how will it affect your picture?
- Will you use your HDTV as a computer monitor?
- Where do you, and others, sit when watching? Does where you sit change the picture you see?

3) What equipment will be sending signals to your high-definition components?

- Did you know that each piece of equipment sending signals to your high definition equipment, like a cable or satellite box, a DVD or Blu-ray player, an AV receiver, a game console, etc., can change the detail, color, or shape of the picture you see?
- Did you know that each component must be set up to correctly work with your equipment in order for the picture to be the best it can be - regardless of where it's getting a signal from?

Calibration is professional optimization of your entire home theater system so that the picture you see on your HDTV or projection screen is the best it can be, in the location that you'll be using it and with your own equipment connected to it. This HDTV adjustment ensures that the image you see is 'correct' and lets you take full advantage of all the technology and features that your high-definition equipment has to offer.


Why can't you (PROFESSIONALLY) calibrate your HDTV OR PROJECTOR yourself?

Do-it-yourself DVDs and Blu-ray disks may certainly improve your HDTV or projector's picture if used correctly - and it's fun to use them to tweak your HDTV's settings! Unfortunately, they just can't achieve the same results as an ISF-certified or THX-certified professional can.


Try answering the following questions:

1) Are you familiar with all of the adjustments built into your new high definition electronics as well as how to use all of the advanced controls and adjustments?

2) Do you have the specialized equipment, training, and experience to know for sure when the controls on your TV/projector are set exactly where they should be?

3) Do you have the training to correctly use the specialized video test patterns necessary to calibrate an HDTV or a projector?

4) Do you have professional equipment that is periodically calibrated and certified to ensure that it is accurate?


If you didn't answer "yes" to all those questions..."


You might also think about this: most folks who 'calibrate' their HDTVs using calibration DVDs/Blu-rays, never really calibrate the display itself! Unless you have a pattern generator that will send signals directly to your display, i.e., without going through a DVD or Blu-ray player, you're not really calibrating the display itself. You're adjusting the video chain TO the display, but not the display isolated from everything else.

Now, am I saying that professional calibration is for everyone? Certainly not. Some folks like what they like, standards be damned! And that's just fine. After all, it's their HDTV!

But for people who want to ensure that what they're seeing is what the originators of the program material saw (as closely as possible given the capabilities of different displays), there's just no way other than professional calibration to do exactly that.

My $0.02...

Best,
Greg

All High Def LLC

ISF Certified
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
THX Certified Professional Home Theater 2
gerianne is offline  
post #9 of 24 Old 08-02-2010, 01:24 AM
Member
 
XrstalLens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kirkland, WA
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I get asked this question all the time (I am a professional calibrator), so I wrote the following blog post to try and address the root issue as much as can be possible.

If you do go with a professional calibration, make sure you go with someone who will sit down with you and walk you through each step and explain what they're doing. By the time they're done, you'll be thrilled with the picture and have no problem with understanding that it's worth it.

------
I often get asked a number of questions that all revolve around whether calibrating a television provides any real benefit to the viewer. They tend to be questions like this:
  • Is calibrating my TV worth it?
  • What exactly does it mean to “calibrate” a TV?
  • How will the picture be better if I calibrate my TV?
  • Why should I calibrate my TV?
  • Does calibrating a TV really do anything?
  • What's better about a professional calibration?
Ultimately it comes down to: will my TV look “better” after it’s calibrated, and is the amount of “better” worth the cost?

It is perfectly reasonable to ask these questions. After all, the person asking the question(s) usually just spent a boatload of money on a new TV, and is now wondering if they need to shell out a few hundred more for a calibration.

There are two major areas of misunderstanding that I try to correct as I answer any one of these questions:

Misunderstanding #1:
“Better” is absolute

People assume that because they’re spending money on a calibration the picture will be “better” afterward. There is a significant problem with this assumption: “better” is very subjective. What one person considers better, another may consider the same, or worse, or just different.

What a person considers “better” can be tricked and manipulated. Most unsuspecting viewers will always consider a brighter picture “better”, even if it can be shown to be substantially worse in picture quality. TV manufacturers know this, and make their TVs as bright as possible so you’ll buy theirs. Does this make the picture “better?” No. Other enhancements added to TVs, such as sharpness, dynamic contrast, enhanced color, and so on all fall into the category of manipulating you into thinking the picture is “better.” None of these actually have anything to do with improving the quality of the picture. In fact, most of them add distortion and inaccuracies to the picture.

“Better” can be defined in many different ways. For example, is a brighter picture “better” than a not-so-bright one? Is a picture with richer color than another “better”, even if those colors are no longer realistic?

Misunderstanding #2:
Calibration is about making the picture “better”

Thinking a calibration will just make the picture “better” misses the point of calibration. Calibration is not about making the picture “better”, unless you define “better” to mean “calibrated.” If someone defines “better” to mean “oversaturated color” (whether consciously or subconsciously), then he will most likely consider a calibrated picture to be worse, at least at first. He might consider the picture to be “dim” at first, simply because he’s used to an image that is too bright. Or, he might miss the edge enhancement, or any number of things, simply because he is accustomed to seeing an inaccurate picture.

Depending on what modes a viewer had been using on their TV prior to a calibration, he may see either a large difference or a small difference in the picture after calibration. If all he had been using was the “out-of-the-box” settings of their TV, he will see a significant difference in the picture after calibration. If he has played with the settings and used some of the other picture modes, such as “Cinema” or “Movie”, or used a calibration disc, he may see only a small difference in the calibrated picture. In nearly all cases, however, factory modes, no matter what they are, still have inaccuracies designed to make the viewer think the picture looks “better” than a competitor’s.

So, what IS calibration about?

Calibration is about getting the TV to reproduce the original image as accurately as possible. Then, the viewer sees exactly what the director intended. This means that the color is realistic, that the picture is as bright as it needs to be, and that you can see every detail of the picture without distortion or artifacts. Distortion and artifacts are simply things in the picture that should not be there, or that are displayed incorrectly. It could be a problem with the color, an element added or removed, or incorrectly placed.

Using a calibration disc yourself allows you to calibrate the “blackness” of black ('brightness'), the brightness of white ('contrast'), and color/tint settings. A professional calibration, with a meter, adds calibrating the color of white (grayscale), accurate colors (CMS), gamma, turning off artificial enhancements, and a number of other considerations such as the viewing environment and the other equipment in the display chain.

Is calibration worth it?

You have to decide for yourself if calibration is worth it. If you care even a little bit about seeing the picture the way the director intended, then you should seriously think about some sort of calibration.

If you don’t know much about picture quality and don’t want to spend much money, then calibrate yourself using a calibration DVD. This gets you in the ballpark, and is a significant improvement over factory settings. But it is only half of what a professional calibration will do (assuming you do it correctly).

If you’ve invested a lot in your TV, or if you’re passionate about what you watch and want to experience it the way the director intended, then you should definitely consider a professional calibration. You owe it to yourself and those who watch with you. Just consider it part of the purchase price of your TV.

In my opinion, you’ll not only find it to be worth it, but once you’re accustomed to watching a calibrated picture, you’ll never go back. You’ll be telling all your friends just how much “better” your picture is!

Lyle Corbin
www.crystalclearhometheater.com
THX Video, ISF, and HAA Level II calibrator
XrstalLens is offline  
post #10 of 24 Old 08-02-2010, 08:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
GeorgeAB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 3,273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitznFish View Post

I really feel like I'm not getting the best picture out of my LCD TV. ( Samsung LN-T5271F ) Every time I go into BB it seems like their TV's have a much crisper/richer picture. I'm nervous about spending $200 on a BB calibration or even more $$$ on someone else. I can get the DVE Blu Ray for $15. But even then will I notice any difference over let say a tweaktv.com suggested setting?

I feel like maybe I will never be satisfied, or always think that my picture is sub par.

Perhaps these sites offer the help you require.

Professional calibration offers a more accurate picture and documentation that verifies the amount of objective improvement achieved by the service. How you feel about the results is outside any technician's training, skills, or capacity to predict.
GeorgeAB is offline  
post #11 of 24 Old 08-02-2010, 01:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,055
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitznFish View Post

I really feel like I'm not getting the best picture out of my LCD TV. ( Samsung LN-T5271F ) Every time I go into BB it seems like their TV's have a much crisper/richer picture. I'm nervous about spending $200 on a BB calibration or even more $$$ on someone else. I can get the DVE Blu Ray for $15. But even then will I notice any difference over let say a tweaktv.com suggested setting?

I feel like maybe I will never be satisfied, or always think that my picture is sub par.

Two things come to mind when I read your post:

1. Your comparing an older TV (2007 model) with 2010 models at Best Buy.

2. The TVs there are all in store mode (aka Vivid/Dynamic), which is the extreme opposite of a calibrated image. Those picture modes/presets are as far off from a calibrated image as possible, simply to create that "crisper/richer picture" you mention.

So, it appears you prefer the image of TVs in store mode, which is way different from a calibrated picture. Also, you're comparing an older TV with a lower contrast ratio to brand new sets with much higher contrast ratios. This also affects how much the picture "pops" out of the screen. If I were you, I'd first give DVE a shot using the Movie mode on your Samsung with the Warm2 or Warm1 color temp preset. Set backlight, contrast, brightness, sharpness, color/tint and turn off all picture "enhancements." Also set picture size right to get 1:1 pixel mapping or at least 16:9 aspect ratio. If you like that kind of picture (semi-calibrated) over Dynamic or Standard mode defaults, then consider a professional calibration. If not, you may really be better off without a calibrated set... in fact you could consider saving up for a new set like ones you like at Best Buy.

Overall, it seems to me you don't want a calibrated set but a new one with much higher contrast ratios and deeper black levels/darker gamma.
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #12 of 24 Old 08-03-2010, 06:47 AM
Senior Member
 
gerianne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Watertown, CT
Posts: 318
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitznFish View Post

I really feel like I'm not getting the best picture out of my LCD TV. ( Samsung LN-T5271F ) Every time I go into BB it seems like their TV's have a much crisper/richer picture. I'm nervous about spending $200 on a BB calibration or even more $$$ on someone else....I feel like maybe I will never be satisfied, or always think that my picture is sub par.

This is something I have posted on a blog and is meant to be funny (not Late Show material, unfortunately) but I think it highlights the problems people have when they DON'T spend the money for a professional calibration that's done correctly. (It speaks to one of the problems you mention...)

As far as $$ well spent, think about the $300 or so you might spend for calibration divided by the number of hours you watch your HDTV and the number of years you'll be using it. Is it really that much? And keep in mind that a professional will calibrate your SYSTEM, not just your HDTV, in YOUR viewing environment.

Top ten reasons NOT to have your HDTV calibrated;

1) You've become addicted to adjusting the TV's settings for every, single thing you watch.
2) You really like the night sky to be gray instead of black - it's less scary that way.
3) You are certain that HDTV manufacturers and big box stores have a crystal ball and know exactly how to adjust your HDTV even before you buy it and connect it to everything else!
4) You're absolutely sure that grass and trees are supposed to be neon green on HDTV.
5) You really enjoy watching skinny people on TV S-T-R-E-C-H-E-D so they look very wide
6) You enjoy not being able to see the details of characters in the shadows so it doesn't spoil the surprise.
7) You're positive that the picture on your HDTV should be as bright as possible so you get your money's worth, and that you should sear your retinas and exercise your irises by watching it in a completely darkened room.
8) You just love those little, fuzzy, colored blocks when you're watching cable or satellite TV
9) You just can't stand the thought of paying less every month for the electricity to run your HDTV, and you want your HDTV to wear out faster so you can spend more money sooner on the newest technology as soon as it comes out.
10) You're convinced that it's not really red if it's not bleeding.

Best regards,
Greg

All High Def LLC

ISF Certified
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
THX Certified Professional Home Theater 2
gerianne is offline  
post #13 of 24 Old 08-03-2010, 07:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jkcheng122's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,480
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerianne View Post

This is something I have posted on a blog and is meant to be funny (not Late Show material, unfortunately) but I think it highlights the problems people have when they DON'T spend the money for a professional calibration that's done correctly. (It speaks to one of the problems you mention...)

As far as $$ well spent, think about the $300 or so you might spend for calibration divided by the number of hours you watch your HDTV and the number of years you'll be using it. Is it really that much? And keep in mind that a professional will calibrate your SYSTEM, not just your HDTV, in YOUR viewing environment.

Top ten reasons NOT to have your HDTV calibrated;

1) You've become addicted to adjusting the TV's settings for every, single thing you watch.
2) You really like the night sky to be gray instead of black - it's less scary that way.
3) You are certain that HDTV manufacturers and big box stores have a crystal ball and know exactly how to adjust your HDTV even before you buy it and connect it to everything else!
4) You're absolutely sure that grass and trees are supposed to be neon green on HDTV.
5) You really enjoy watching skinny people on TV S-T-R-E-C-H-E-D so they look very wide
6) You enjoy not being able to see the details of characters in the shadows so it doesn't spoil the surprise.
7) You're positive that the picture on your HDTV should be as bright as possible so you get your money's worth, and that you should sear your retinas and exercise your irises by watching it in a completely darkened room.
8) You just love those little, fuzzy, colored blocks when you're watching cable or satellite TV
9) You just can't stand the thought of paying less every month for the electricity to run your HDTV, and you want your HDTV to wear out faster so you can spend more money sooner on the newest technology as soon as it comes out.
10) You're convinced that it's not really red if it's not bleeding.

Best regards,
Greg

Top 10 list needs to count backwards =)

Problem with DVE is you can't calibrate grayscale (and gamut on the displays that provide CMS) with it, not to mention it doesn't even tell you which viewing mode (Dynamic, Movie, Standard, etc) you should be using.
jkcheng122 is offline  
post #14 of 24 Old 08-05-2010, 12:43 PM
Advanced Member
 
jaseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The only way to truly appreciate a calibrated set is to have yours calibrated. Then, if possible, be able to revert back to the settings you were using, that you may have thought looked good (without resetting the calibration) to compare the two settings. I too used to think that a calibrated set couldn't be that much better. And for a few very good sets out there it may not make that much of a difference. At least not to someone who doesn't care about getting it right. But for the vast majority of sets, and a great many people on this forum who do care, having it calibrated and then seeing it with proper colors and all the other stuff a calibration will do for you...you will never want to go back!

Better to want what you don't have, than to have what you don't want!

jaseman is offline  
post #15 of 24 Old 08-05-2010, 01:50 PM
 
ChrisWiggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 20,730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerianne View Post

...
You might also think about this: most folks who 'calibrate' their HDTVs using calibration DVDs/Blu-rays, never really calibrate the display itself! Unless you have a pattern generator that will send signals directly to your display, i.e., without going through a DVD or Blu-ray player, you're not really calibrating the display itself. You're adjusting the video chain TO the display, but not the display isolated from everything else.

I don't like this characterization, and is actually counterproductive. There is no such thing as aligning a display "isolated from everything else."

The entire fundamental purpose of calibration is to align the display to the playback device to render an accurate image. Ideally, the source device is outputting signals that are correct to a particular video standard, in which case calibrating a display to a signal generator that matches that standard accomplishes the same thing. But this still is not a display calibrated "in isolation," it is a display aligned to a particular standard. And this requires measuring the output device to ensure that it matches that standard, in which case you are still ensuring that the display is aligned to the source.

A calibrator who aligns to a pattern generator and doesn't align the entire playback chain to ensure that the display is set properly for the sources it is actually connected to isn't really calibrating anything at all any more than going onto an internet forum and finding arbitrary settings from some other display and copying them.

Calibrating a display in isolation is not calibration. It's guessing.

You do not need a pattern generator to calibrate a display. The primary purpose of a pattern generator is to automate the process and make calibration much faster and easier, but you ALWAYS have to make sure that you match the source at the end, aside from what the generator says. Because unless your video source is a pattern generator and you sit down for two hours at a time to watch colobars, you haven't done anything.
ChrisWiggles is offline  
post #16 of 24 Old 08-05-2010, 02:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
GeorgeAB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 3,273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

I don't like this characterization, and is actually counterproductive. There is no such thing as aligning a display "isolated from everything else."

The entire fundamental purpose of calibration is to align the display to the playback device to render an accurate image. Ideally, the source device is outputting signals that are correct to a particular video standard, in which case calibrating a display to a signal generator that matches that standard accomplishes the same thing. But this still is not a display calibrated "in isolation," it is a display aligned to a particular standard. And this requires measuring the output device to ensure that it matches that standard, in which case you are still ensuring that the display is aligned to the source.

A calibrator who aligns to a pattern generator and doesn't align the entire playback chain to ensure that the display is set properly for the sources it is actually connected to isn't really calibrating anything at all any more than going onto an internet forum and finding arbitrary settings from some other display and copying them.

Calibrating a display in isolation is not calibration. It's guessing.

You do not need a pattern generator to calibrate a display. The primary purpose of a pattern generator is to automate the process and make calibration much faster and easier, but you ALWAYS have to make sure that you match the source at the end, aside from what the generator says. Because unless your video source is a pattern generator and you sit down for two hours at a time to watch colobars, you haven't done anything.

Excellent points! Display calibration MUST be understood to mean display system calibration. The objective is image fidelity. A display is only one component in the system being used by the viewer. Anything that impacts the perception of the picture must be addressed when aligning a program delivery system. Just adjusting the TV or projector, isolated from the rest of the system, will only get part way to the genuine goal of calibration. Far too many aspiring calibrators lose sight of the fundamental purpose for such work: delivering as authentic an image for the audience as possible.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
GeorgeAB is offline  
post #17 of 24 Old 08-06-2010, 03:13 AM
Senior Member
 
gerianne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Watertown, CT
Posts: 318
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

I don't like this characterization, and is actually counterproductive. There is no such thing as aligning a display "isolated from everything else."...

Chris, I think you may have taken my comment out of context. What I was trying to indicate is that folks who calibrate by ONLY using a DVD/Blu-ray disk through a player, are never actually calibrating the display itself, an important FIRST step in a system calibration! To be honest, I don't know of anyone who calibrates just the display without regard to to input from source devices that will be used.

I think ANY professional calibrator will always calibrate the entire video chain, but most (with most, but not all equipment) will start from the display and work outwards.

As far as not needing a pattern generator, how do you calibrate a display for the signals delivered to the HDTV through cable/satellite? (If you don't have something like HDNet, that is). And, at least in my opinion, a pattern generator is a piece of calibrated equipment that ensures you are delivering a correct signal to the device you're calibrating. It's certainly NOT just to automate calibration!

Hope that makes sense and you understand what I was trying to say. As GeorgeAB said, you MUST calibrate the system!

Best regards,
Greg

All High Def LLC

ISF Certified
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
THX Certified Professional Home Theater 2
gerianne is offline  
post #18 of 24 Old 08-06-2010, 06:49 AM
Advanced Member
 
jaseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerianne View Post

As far as not needing a pattern generator, how do you calibrate a display for the signals delivered to the HDTV through cable/satellite? (If you don't have something like HDNet, that is). And, at least in my opinion, a pattern generator is a piece of calibrated equipment that ensures you are delivering a correct signal to the device you're calibrating. It's certainly NOT just to automate calibration!

I do my own calibrations...for better or worse I think I do OK...but I do have a question. I calibrate with my Oppo blu-ray player. I use HCFR, DVE, or a Pattern disk, and an X-rite Eye One LT. I run my cable and my blu-ray into a Denon AVR-790 and I turn off all scaling in the Denon. That way the HDMI signal from the Oppo is scaled inside the Oppo. The cable signal is standard 1080i and is scaled by the TV. Now I feel that I have a beautiful picture from both sources. Of course standard def cable is questionable for everyone. The TV was calibrated using the Oppo but how would I calibrate the cable signal? In fact, since I am only using one HDMI out from the Denon to the TV, and the Denon is only passing the signal through it's HDMI port, and the TV is calibrated correctly, then wouldn't the signal from the cable be as good as it can get?

Hope this makes sense to all you experts out there!

Better to want what you don't have, than to have what you don't want!

jaseman is offline  
post #19 of 24 Old 08-06-2010, 07:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Michael TLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: THX/ISF Calibrationist/Instructor, Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,726
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Greetings

You can't really calibrate for cable or satellite directly anyway. The signal is not reference ... being all over the place.

You calibrate with the oppo as you did ... and cross your fingers. The oppo "should" track what a good generator outputs. A $26 Walmart special might not.

When the player is calibrated, you go through the cable channels to determine if they look reasonable. That is all you do. If people don't look green or purple or something else ... then you know the DVD player settings were a reasonable starting point.

But guess what, depending on the signal, the image may be too dark ... too bright ... color too high ... color too low ... tint too red ... tint too green.

If you do it with a signal generator instead ... the image may be too dark ... too bright ... color too high ... color too low ... tint too red ... tint too green. What changed? Nothing.

regards

Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
ISF/THX/TLV Video Instructor
The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

Michael TLV is offline  
post #20 of 24 Old 08-06-2010, 08:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jkcheng122's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,480
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaseman View Post

I do my own calibrations...for better or worse I think I do OK...but I do have a question. I calibrate with my Oppo blu-ray player. I use HCFR, DVE, or a Pattern disk, and an X-rite Eye One LT. I run my cable and my blu-ray into a Denon AVR-790 and I turn off all scaling in the Denon. That way the HDMI signal from the Oppo is scaled inside the Oppo. The cable signal is standard 1080i and is scaled by the TV. Now I feel that I have a beautiful picture from both sources. Of course standard def cable is questionable for everyone. The TV was calibrated using the Oppo but how would I calibrate the cable signal? In fact, since I am only using one HDMI out from the Denon to the TV, and the Denon is only passing the signal through it's HDMI port, and the TV is calibrated correctly, then wouldn't the signal from the cable be as good as it can get?

Hope this makes sense to all you experts out there!

Yeah, don't bother with trying to calibrate cable/sat channels. The stations don't follow a standard and you can have simulcasts of sports games or presidential debates and they will all look different on each channel.

I do have a question though and perhaps others can answer. Should the Denon have a better scaler than the TV (dunno what TV you have but Denon should be better), you should leave the scalers in the Denon on unless you can actually leave it on or off for each input. From what I understand, if the Denon receives a 1080p signal from your Oppo it wouldn't do anymore scaling to it. But if you leave it Off wouldn't you prevent the Denon from scaling your cable/sat signals? In this case you definitely want your Denon to do the scaling over the cable/sat boxes.
jkcheng122 is offline  
post #21 of 24 Old 08-06-2010, 09:08 AM
Advanced Member
 
jaseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Good point on the Denon scaler. My set is a new Mitsubishi 82738. I "suppose" it has a decent scaler but it's hard to get any of those specs clarified. I will have to look again at the TV's manual or the Mitsubishi website. I decided to turn off the scaling in the Denon just to make sure it didn't mess with the signal from the Oppo as I am pretty confident that the Oppo has the superior specs in this regard. From what I recall on the Denon there are two settings for the HDMI scaler...one for digital and one for analog. Now I believe that through cable you get both analog and digital signals??? And from the Oppo all the signals are digital. So if I turned on the scaling for one or both of the signal types, it should do the scaling for the cable but you say it will IGNORE the signal from the Oppo because it is already coming in at the TV's native 1080p??? Is this correct? I am downloading a PDF of the Denon manual so I can re-read about the HDMI scaling as I write this.

Better to want what you don't have, than to have what you don't want!

jaseman is offline  
post #22 of 24 Old 08-06-2010, 09:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jkcheng122's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,480
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaseman View Post

So if I turned on the scaling for one or both of the signal types, it should do the scaling for the cable but you say it will IGNORE the signal from the Oppo because it is already coming in at the TV's native 1080p??? Is this correct? I am downloading a PDF of the Denon manual so I can re-read about the HDMI scaling as I write this.

Need someone more in the know to verify this. I'm not 100% on it.
jkcheng122 is offline  
post #23 of 24 Old 08-06-2010, 01:09 PM
Senior Member
 
fubdap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 272
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
For the cable/sat channels calibration, would copying your calibrated settings from the Blu-Ray input to the cable/sat channels input help?



Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

Yeah, don't bother with trying to calibrate cable/sat channels. The stations don't follow a standard and you can have simulcasts of sports games or presidential debates and they will all look different on each channel.

I do have a question though and perhaps others can answer. Should the Denon have a better scaler than the TV (dunno what TV you have but Denon should be better), you should leave the scalers in the Denon on unless you can actually leave it on or off for each input. From what I understand, if the Denon receives a 1080p signal from your Oppo it wouldn't do anymore scaling to it. But if you leave it Off wouldn't you prevent the Denon from scaling your cable/sat signals? In this case you definitely want your Denon to do the scaling over the cable/sat boxes.

fubdap is offline  
post #24 of 24 Old 08-06-2010, 01:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Michael TLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: THX/ISF Calibrationist/Instructor, Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,726
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Greetings


It's a start ...

If the BD and the cable inhabit different inputs on the TV ... then just plug the BD into the cable input and calibrate it again ... just to make sure. Then put it back to its BD input.

regards

Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
ISF/THX/TLV Video Instructor
The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

Michael TLV is offline  
Reply Display Calibration

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off