4:4:4 vs 4:2:2 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 11 Old 08-09-2010, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I just want to know some expert opinions on 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2. I had read that 4:4:4 was 8-bit, and 4:2:2 was 10-bit - so 4:2:2 might be superior due to this. Is this correct?
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post #2 of 11 Old 08-09-2010, 06:00 PM
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Unfortunetly it's not that simple.

The stuff that's encoded on discs is all 8bit 4:2:2. But if you've got a processor or a PC source 4:4:4 isn't a bad choice at all.

The bit depth is completely unreleated to the encoding format.

If you want to learn about it, this is a great resource.
http://www.dvd-replica.com/DVD/color.php

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post #3 of 11 Old 08-09-2010, 06:33 PM
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DVD and Bluray are actually 4:2:0. It's expanded to 4:2:2 in the MPEG decoder.
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post #4 of 11 Old 08-09-2010, 07:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sl@cker View Post

I just want to know some expert opinions on 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2. I had read that 4:4:4 was 8-bit, and 4:2:2 was 10-bit - so 4:2:2 might be superior due to this. Is this correct?

They are generally unrelated. What is the specific context for this question?
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post #5 of 11 Old 08-09-2010, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I just have a sony blu-ray player that has the options for 4:4:4 and 4:2:2. From what I've seen so far, the 4:4:4 has blacker blacks/whiter whites, but not as smooth of a picture overall. My eyes prefer the 4:2:2, it has more of a clean film look to it.

Other than that, can you guys give some pros and cons for both? I mean I know what looks better to me is probaby what I will stick with. I've read about what they technically mean on wiki. But why does 4:4:4 give almost the black crush and hot whites look, where as 4:2:2 is more of a smooth film-like look?


I'm using the blu-ray player on a newer lcd 1080P TV, with HDMI 1.3 .
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post #6 of 11 Old 08-09-2010, 09:14 PM
 
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what sony bluray player?

there should be no difference whatsoever in black or white levels between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 unless the 4:4:4 setting switches to RGB output using the graphics range. Likely there is a separate selection between RGB and YCbCr.

There is unlikely to be any visual difference whatsoever between outputting 4:4:4 and 4:2:2. The disc is only 4:2:0 to begin with. All this setting does is change the chroma upsampling location, and this will be nearly impossible to see in any rational circumstance unless something is seriously screwing up chroma, AND you have your face half an inch from your TV.
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post #7 of 11 Old 08-09-2010, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

what sony bluray player?

there should be no difference whatsoever in black or white levels between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 unless the 4:4:4 setting switches to RGB output using the graphics range. Likely there is a separate selection between RGB and YCbCr.

There is unlikely to be any visual difference whatsoever between outputting 4:4:4 and 4:2:2. The disc is only 4:2:0 to begin with. All this setting does is change the chroma upsampling location, and this will be nearly impossible to see in any rational circumstance unless something is seriously screwing up chroma, AND you have your face half an inch from your TV.

The Sony BDP-S360. And there definitely is a very noticable difference. on 444, blacks are blacker, whites are hotter. on 422 the blacks are a tiny bit greyer, and whites aren't has hot (as if the white level got turned down). These are both the YCbCr settings. I've checked out the two RGB settings (15-235, 0-255) and they both look noticably worse than the YCbCr settings.

just to clarify there are 4 settings available:

YCbCr 4:4:4
YCbCr 4:2:2
RGB 0-255
RBG 15-235
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post #8 of 11 Old 08-09-2010, 11:00 PM
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Greetings

Just because a player has the option to change these settings does not mean that the implementation of the settings were correct.

Just like 0 and 7.5 ire settings don't do the same thing from player to player ...

Which might explain why he sees differences ... if the stuff is not done right in the first place.

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post #9 of 11 Old 08-09-2010, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sl@cker View Post

The Sony BDP-S360. And there definitely is a very noticable difference. on 444, blacks are blacker, whites are hotter. on 422 the blacks are a tiny bit greyer, and whites aren't has hot (as if the white level got turned down). These are both the YCbCr settings. I've checked out the two RGB settings (15-235, 0-255) and they both look noticably worse than the YCbCr settings.

just to clarify there are 4 settings available:

YCbCr 4:4:4
YCbCr 4:2:2
RGB 0-255
RBG 15-235

if you'd read the article I linked you'd see that YCbCr 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:2:2 and RGB 16-235 should all basically look the same.

The source is YCbCr 4:2:0.
The 4:x:x describes the subsamples of the picture.
Blacks and whites look better? It's a placebeo effect(Or your TV is handles them differently). The Y's 4 that's the same in both is where all the black to white data is stored and it's the same for all formats (0-255 excepted).

4:4:4 and 4:2:2 describes the chroma sampling substructure of the image contetnt.

You know DVD's are still black and white compatible? The Y in YCrCb is the black and white signal so you can use old 50's TV's. the Cr and Cb is a color matrix overlay. 4:2:2 means that there are 2 CrCb samples for every 4 Y pixels. 4:4:4 means that there are 4 Cr and Cb samples for every 4 Y samples. But the data on the disc is 4:2:0, meaning there is only 1 Cr and Cb sample for every 4 Y pixlels.


YCrCb is essentially a compression algorithim that in one flavor or another has been in use since they added color to B&W broadcasts.

Wikipedia has some decent images to show what I'm talking about
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YCrCb

the composite image, the Y data the Cb data and then the Cr data.


If there are differences it's in your TV's interpretation of the signal, but if you calibrated the set based on the player output you'd likely end up in the same place for any pixel format.
LL

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post #10 of 11 Old 08-10-2010, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello - thanks for the info. I will say that the difference in black levels may be placebo effect, as a result of the difference in white levels. But the hotter/boosted whites on 4:4:4 is immediately apparent.

So basically what you guys are saying is that it shouldn't matter whether I set to 4:4:4 or 4:2:2? Would it make sense that 4:2:2 is closer to the correct setting, since 4:2:0 is native to the disc format?
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post #11 of 11 Old 08-10-2010, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sl@cker View Post

Hello - thanks for the info. I will say that the difference in black levels may be placebo effect, as a result of the difference in white levels. But the hotter/boosted whites on 4:4:4 is immediately apparent.

So basically what you guys are saying is that it shouldn't matter whether I set to 4:4:4 or 4:2:2? Would it make sense that 4:2:2 is closer to the correct setting, since 4:2:0 is native to the disc format?

4:4:4 will be better for upscaled DVD's since there is more data to describe the resampled content.

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