The difference between Samsung Film modes? - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 28 Old 08-21-2010, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I know that CS is for 24p content but how about Auto 1/2? The users manual doesn't specify.

Any input is greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
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post #2 of 28 Old 08-22-2010, 11:32 AM
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Film Modes are typically inverse telecine... meaning they remove 3:2 pulldown from 30 fps sources which are almost all exclusively DVD. The repeated frames are detected and removed leaving 24p. If you are already sending 24p from a disc player that also has an inverse telecine mode, the TV won't do anything else with the images. If you are sending Blu-ray at 24p, the Film Mode won't do anything either. Auto1 and Auto2 typically will be setup so one of them only removes 3:2 pulldown and the other will remove 3:2 pulldown AND insert interpolated frames (using the TVs motion smoothing setting... whatever it is set to). Film Mode will also remove 3:2 pulldown from movies shown on broadcast, cable or satellite. But when the source is 30 fps video (like concert DVDs or Blu-rays) or TV shows shot with video cameras, there is no 3:2 pulldown to remove so CineSmooth or CineMotion or Film Mode (different brands have different names for the control but they typically all do the same thing(s) do nothing. And if the source is 24p there's no 3:2 pulldown to remove either so again, this setting does nothing.

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post #3 of 28 Old 08-22-2010, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Film Modes are typically inverse telecine... meaning they remove 3:2 pulldown from 30 fps sources which are almost all exclusively DVD. The repeated frames are detected and removed leaving 24p. If you are already sending 24p from a disc player that also has an inverse telecine mode, the TV won't do anything else with the images. If you are sending Blu-ray at 24p, the Film Mode won't do anything either. Auto1 and Auto2 typically will be setup so one of them only removes 3:2 pulldown and the other will remove 3:2 pulldown AND insert interpolated frames (using the TVs motion smoothing setting... whatever it is set to). Film Mode will also remove 3:2 pulldown from movies shown on broadcast, cable or satellite. But when the source is 30 fps video (like concert DVDs or Blu-rays) or TV shows shot with video cameras, there is no 3:2 pulldown to remove so CineSmooth or CineMotion or Film Mode (different brands have different names for the control but they typically all do the same thing(s) do nothing. And if the source is 24p there's no 3:2 pulldown to remove either so again, this setting does nothing.

Thanks for the info Doug! But I thought even with 24p enabled on a Blu Ray Player to a Samsung TV that Cinema Smooth has to be enabled to view at 96hz to avoid the 3:2 pulldown?
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post #4 of 28 Old 08-22-2010, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el pablo View Post

I know that CS is for 24p content but how about Auto 1/2? The users manual doesn't specify.

Any input is greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Pablo

This setting is valid for 480i and 1080i (film-based) signals only. Use Auto1 to properly de-interlace 480i and 1080i content. Auto2 is to make text clear but doesn't properly de-interlace 480i and 1080i film signals like Auto1.

Always use Auto1 when the setting is available and not grayed out.

"Film Mode → Off / Auto1 / Auto2
The TV can be set to automatically sense and process film signals from all sources and adjust the picture for optimum quality.
Film Mode is supported in TV, Video, Component (480i / 1080i) and HDMI (480i / 1080i).
Off: Turns the Film Mode function off.
Auto1: Automatically adjusts the picture for the best quality when watching a film.
Auto2: Automatically optimizes the video text on the screen (not including closed captions) when watching a film."

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post #5 of 28 Old 08-22-2010, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info! If CS is enabled under film mode on a C8000 then does it default to Auto 1 when not being fed 24p content?
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post #6 of 28 Old 08-23-2010, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by el pablo View Post

Thanks for the info Doug! But I thought even with 24p enabled on a Blu Ray Player to a Samsung TV that Cinema Smooth has to be enabled to view at 96hz to avoid the 3:2 pulldown?

Oops... I have Sony on the brain... the other description applies to Samsung... the info I posted is typical for Sony TVs. Sorry for the confusion.

And yes, if you send 24p, the TV has to operate in a multiple of 24fps or 3:2 pulldown would be added back in. Some TVs will accept 24p but only operate in 60Hz so you can never get rid of 3:2 pulldown on those. Other TVs may have 48, 96, 120, or 240 Hz operation to support 24p - varies with manufacturer and model and type of TV.

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post #7 of 28 Old 08-23-2010, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by el pablo View Post

Thanks for the info! If CS is enabled under film mode on a C8000 then does it default to Auto 1 when not being fed 24p content?

On my B650 LCD, it always defaults to Auto2.

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post #8 of 28 Old 08-23-2010, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Oops... I have Sony on the brain... the other description applies to Samsung... the info I posted is typical for Sony TVs. Sorry for the confusion.

And yes, if you send 24p, the TV has to operate in a multiple of 24fps or 3:2 pulldown would be added back in. Some TVs will accept 24p but only operate in 60Hz so you can never get rid of 3:2 pulldown on those. Other TVs may have 48, 96, 120, or 240 Hz operation to support 24p - varies with manufacturer and model and type of TV.

Thanks for clarifying! So does playing back 24p content at 96hz introduce frame interpolation although even: 4 identical frames for each single frame = 4/4 pulldown?

If this is correct then is this still a little different then viewing from a film projector or did I hear that projectors also duplicate frames in some manner?

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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

On my B650 LCD, it always defaults to Auto2.

Thanks for the info! Do you prefer auto 1 over auto 2? If so do you manually switch to auto 1 after viewing 24p content with CS? (CS mode only applies to 24p correct?)
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post #9 of 28 Old 08-23-2010, 04:42 PM
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Here's a simple response:

Use auto1 for 1080i and off for 1080p. Cinema smooth handles 24p appropriately but it causes your black levels to rise. I'd rather have decent black level.
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post #10 of 28 Old 08-23-2010, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rfbrown94 View Post

Here's a simple response:

Use auto1 for 1080i and off for 1080p. Cinema smooth handles 24p appropriately but it causes your black levels to rise. I'd rather have decent black level.

Thanks for your input! Hopefully this CS issue can be fixed with a future firmware update.
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post #11 of 28 Old 08-23-2010, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el pablo View Post

Thanks for your input! Hopefully this CS issue can be fixed with a future firmware update.

Use Auto1 when available. It is automatically off when grayed out with progressive resolutions (480p, 720p, 1080p).

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post #12 of 28 Old 08-23-2010, 10:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Use Auto1 when available. It is automatically off when grayed out with progressive resolutions (480p, 720p, 1080p).

Thanks for your input! I wonder why it defaults to auto 2? Would there ever be a good reason to use this mode? Why do they not apply to p vs i content?
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post #13 of 28 Old 08-24-2010, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el pablo View Post

Thanks for clarifying! So does playing back 24p content at 96hz introduce frame interpolation although even: 4 identical frames for each single frame = 4/4 pulldown?

If this is correct then is this still a little different then viewing from a film projector or did I hear that projectors also duplicate frames in some manner?

Frame interpolation is on if the TV has a Frame Interpolation mode and you turned it on. If you turned it off (or if the TV has no frame interpolation mode), then each frame is repeated 4 times to get 96Hz.

Modern film projectors typically flash each frame 2 times.

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post #14 of 28 Old 08-24-2010, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Great info Doug, thanks for your time!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Frame interpolation is on if the TV has a Frame Interpolation mode and you turned it on. If you turned it off (or if the TV has no frame interpolation mode), then each frame is repeated 4 times to get 96Hz.

Modern film projectors typically flash each frame 2 times.

So there is no way view 24p at 96Hz with frame interpolation on?

Since viewing 24p at 96Hz repeats each frame 4 times vs 2 from film does it allow less judder?
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post #15 of 28 Old 08-25-2010, 01:54 AM
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Film motion sucks, most attempts to make it look better by interpolating frames look unnatural.

If you turn frame interpolation on you are going to get interpolated frames... period. I don't know how many frames they interpolate and how many duplicate frames are flashed. An interpolated frame can actually be quite good - they can even look better than the original blurred film frames that were anlyzed to create the interpolated frame. But taking too much blur out of movies makes images look more like they were shot with a video camera than with a film camera - and that drives some people crazy. However, some of the newer frame interpolation algorithms apparently add some blur to the interpolated frames to keep them "more film-like" while still providing some sense of motion that is filled-in better.

Flashing frames multiple times has nothing to do with motion judder. It is a technique used to reduce visible flicker in images in theaters or in home video displays. The reasons for it are similar but the techniques for film projector and home video displays are very different for many reasons.

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post #16 of 28 Old 08-25-2010, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Film motion sucks, most attempts to make it look better by interpolating frames look unnatural.

If you turn frame interpolation on you are going to get interpolated frames... period. I don't know how many frames they interpolate and how many duplicate frames are flashed. An interpolated frame can actually be quite good - they can even look better than the original blurred film frames that were anlyzed to create the interpolated frame. But taking too much blur out of movies makes images look more like they were shot with a video camera than with a film camera - and that drives some people crazy. However, some of the newer frame interpolation algorithms apparently add some blur to the interpolated frames to keep them "more film-like" while still providing some sense of motion that is filled-in better.

Flashing frames multiple times has nothing to do with motion judder. It is a technique used to reduce visible flicker in images in theaters or in home video displays. The reasons for it are similar but the techniques for film projector and home video displays are very different for many reasons.

Thanks once again Doug! So if I understand correctly frame interpolation isn't just repeating the same frame (ie 24p 96hz 4:4) but actually introducing combined intermediary frames?
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post #17 of 28 Old 08-26-2010, 09:01 AM
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Thanks once again Doug! So if I understand correctly frame interpolation isn't just repeating the same frame (ie 24p 96hz 4:4) but actually introducing combined intermediary frames?

Yes, if a car is moving rapidly from left to right and in Frame 1 the car is at the left edge of the frame and in frame 2 the car is at the right edge of the frame, the interpolation software will make a new frame with the car in the middle of the frame. If the car is very blurred in frame 1 and frame 2 (from the high speed), the interpolated frame might be much sharper - it is surprising hiw much sharper the interpolated frame can be. But some interpolation software will now blur the interpolated frame on purpose so it looks more like a film camera frame and less like a sharp image. Some TVs have 2 or 3 or 4 or even 5 frame interpolation modes that all look a little different because adjustments are made to the interpolation software so the interpolated framed look different.

If you flash frame1 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 10 times... then do the same thing for frame2, that has nothing to do with Interpolation of frames. When interpolation is turned on, you might flash frame1 2 times, flash the interpolated frame 2 times, then flash frame2 2 times, and an interpolated frame 2 times. A different interpolation mode (perhaps on a 240Hz TV) might flash frame 1 5 times, an interpolated frame 5 times, frame2 5 times, an interpolated frame 5 times, etc. Or they might flash frame1 6 times and an interpolated frame 4 times, frame2 6 times, interpolated frame 4 times... etc. There are a lot of possible patterns for flashing original frames and interpolated frames.

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post #18 of 28 Old 08-26-2010, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, if a car is moving rapidly from left to right and in Frame 1 the car is at the left edge of the frame and in frame 2 the car is at the right edge of the frame, the interpolation software will make a new frame with the car in the middle of the frame. If the car is very blurred in frame 1 and frame 2 (from the high speed), the interpolated frame might be much sharper - it is surprising hiw much sharper the interpolated frame can be. But some interpolation software will now blur the interpolated frame on purpose so it looks more like a film camera frame and less like a sharp image. Some TVs have 2 or 3 or 4 or even 5 frame interpolation modes that all look a little different because adjustments are made to the interpolation software so the interpolated framed look different.

If you flash frame1 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 10 times... then do the same thing for frame2, that has nothing to do with Interpolation of frames. When interpolation is turned on, you might flash frame1 2 times, flash the interpolated frame 2 times, then flash frame2 2 times, and an interpolated frame 2 times. A different interpolation mode (perhaps on a 240Hz TV) might flash frame 1 5 times, an interpolated frame 5 times, frame2 5 times, an interpolated frame 5 times, etc. Or they might flash frame1 6 times and an interpolated frame 4 times, frame2 6 times, interpolated frame 4 times... etc. There are a lot of possible patterns for flashing original frames and interpolated frames.

Thanks for clarifying! I just kept questioning myself because there are people on the forum referring to Samsung Cinema Smooth (24p at 96hz) as frame interpolation.
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post #19 of 28 Old 01-01-2015, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post
Film Modes are typically inverse telecine... meaning they remove 3:2 pulldown from 30 fps sources which are almost all exclusively DVD. The repeated frames are detected and removed leaving 24p. If you are already sending 24p from a disc player that also has an inverse telecine mode, the TV won't do anything else with the images. If you are sending Blu-ray at 24p, the Film Mode won't do anything either. Auto1 and Auto2 typically will be setup so one of them only removes 3:2 pulldown and the other will remove 3:2 pulldown AND insert interpolated frames (using the TVs motion smoothing setting... whatever it is set to). Film Mode will also remove 3:2 pulldown from movies shown on broadcast, cable or satellite. But when the source is 30 fps video (like concert DVDs or Blu-rays) or TV shows shot with video cameras, there is no 3:2 pulldown to remove so CineSmooth or CineMotion or Film Mode (different brands have different names for the control but they typically all do the same thing(s) do nothing. And if the source is 24p there's no 3:2 pulldown to remove either so again, this setting does nothing.
Doug, I know this is an old thread but thought you might have an answer for me.

I have a 60" Samsung PNF8500. I've been fooling around with the Cinema Smooth and Auto1 film mode settings. I've enabled Cinema Smooth for 24p content and used HCFR's sensor calibration to measure the TV refresh rate at 96fps (that's 24p with each frame repeated 4 times). I quite like Cinema Smooth.

My understanding of the Auto1 film mode setting is that it should detect 2:3 pulldown in 1080/60i content and remove the 2:3 pulldown. But I can't find any evidence that this is happening. All 1080/60i content that I've tested is displaying at 60fps (per test using HCFR sensor calibration which reports the refresh rate), which means the 3:2 pulldown must still be there.

Or am I missing something? Perhaps I haven't found source material which engages this feature?

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post #20 of 28 Old 01-01-2015, 03:07 PM
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All bets are off when dealing with newer TVs that support refresh rates other than 24, 30, and 60. Things can be very different and very surprising. I haven't spent much time looking into or experimenting with cinema/3:2 modes in newer TVs so I'm not really able to say one way or the other what any specific TV is doing.

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post #21 of 28 Old 01-03-2015, 08:15 AM
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Doug, I know this is an old thread but thought you might have an answer for me.

I have a 60" Samsung PNF8500. I've been fooling around with the Cinema Smooth and Auto1 film mode settings. I've enabled Cinema Smooth for 24p content and used HCFR's sensor calibration to measure the TV refresh rate at 96fps (that's 24p with each frame repeated 4 times). I quite like Cinema Smooth.

My understanding of the Auto1 film mode setting is that it should detect 2:3 pulldown in 1080/60i content and remove the 2:3 pulldown. But I can't find any evidence that this is happening. All 1080/60i content that I've tested is displaying at 60fps (per test using HCFR sensor calibration which reports the refresh rate), which means the 3:2 pulldown must still be there.

Or am I missing something? Perhaps I haven't found source material which engages this feature?
AFAIK film 1 and film 2 modes on the Samsung are different deinterlacing algorithms (film 2 is supposed to better with overlayed text typical of sports broadcasts). Neither of them will perform IVTC so they are always 60Hz.
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post #22 of 28 Old 01-09-2015, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
AFAIK film 1 and film 2 modes on the Samsung are different deinterlacing algorithms (film 2 is supposed to better with overlayed text typical of sports broadcasts). Neither of them will perform IVTC so they are always 60Hz.
Thanks, makes sense... :-)

Samsung are probably hoping users will use judder canceller instead.

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post #23 of 28 Old 01-09-2015, 12:51 PM
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AFAIK film 1 and film 2 modes on the Samsung are different deinterlacing algorithms (film 2 is supposed to better with overlayed text typical of sports broadcasts). Neither of them will perform IVTC so they are always 60Hz.
Although this begs the question, what is the Film Mode "Off" setting doing ???

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post #24 of 28 Old 01-10-2015, 08:35 AM
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Good question, perhaps some very basic deinterlacing mode using field combination techniques while the enhanced modes use motion detection but that's just a guess.
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post #25 of 28 Old 01-11-2015, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
Doug, I know this is an old thread but thought you might have an answer for me.

I have a 60" Samsung PNF8500. I've been fooling around with the Cinema Smooth and Auto1 film mode settings. I've enabled Cinema Smooth for 24p content and used HCFR's sensor calibration to measure the TV refresh rate at 96fps (that's 24p with each frame repeated 4 times). I quite like Cinema Smooth.

My understanding of the Auto1 film mode setting is that it should detect 2:3 pulldown in 1080/60i content and remove the 2:3 pulldown. But I can't find any evidence that this is happening. All 1080/60i content that I've tested is displaying at 60fps (per test using HCFR sensor calibration which reports the refresh rate), which means the 3:2 pulldown must still be there.

Or am I missing something? Perhaps I haven't found source material which engages this feature?
I can explain in simple terms what's going on. Your sensor is merely detecting the two refresh rates your PDP TV is capable of running at (60Hz and 96Hz). With 24p inputs and Cinema Smooth engaged, the TV runs at 96Hz (each frame is repeated four times so still 24fps video). With 60i or 60p inputs, the TV is running at 60Hz (also with 24p inputs when Cinema Smooth is off). Video content is at 30 fps and film content is 24 fps (watching a movie on cable/sat in 1080/60i is converted back to 24fps (from 30 fps) when film mode auto1 is selected via reverse 3:2 pulldown and then the TV does 2:3 pulldown to display it at 60Hz... refresh rate is still 60Hz). Bottom line is you seem to be confusing the TV's two possible refresh rates (60Hz and 96Hz) with the frame rates of the video content being displayed (either 30 fps for TV shows or 24 fps for movies).

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post #26 of 28 Old 01-11-2015, 04:00 PM
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With 24fps content found on a 1080i channel, the film mode auto1 will do reverse 2:3 pulldown and then 2:3 pulldown again so it can be displayed at 60Hz. The framerate remains 24 fps and the cadence 2:3:2:3...

Essentially going from 60i to 24p to 60p...

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
Display: Samsung UN46EH6030 LED-LCD TV; Audio: Yamaha HTR-3066 AVR/AMP, Sony Core Bookshelves (Sony SS-CS5) and Center (Sony SS-CS8) as fronts, Cambridge Audio S20 Bookshelves (CA S20-N) as surrounds, Dayton Audio SUB-1200 as subwoofer; Sources: PS4 (doubles as primary BD player), Xbox One, PS3, Xbox 360, Motorola RNG150N (Cable Box)
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post #27 of 28 Old 01-14-2015, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
With 24fps content found on a 1080i channel, the film mode auto1 will do reverse 2:3 pulldown and then 2:3 pulldown again so it can be displayed at 60Hz. The framerate remains 24 fps and the cadence 2:3:2:3...

Essentially going from 60i to 24p to 60p...
This explanation makes no sense to me... if Auto1 does reverse 2:3 pulldown, why not display 4:4 at 96hz instead of going back to 2:3 at 60hz?

Samsung PN60F8500, TiVo Roamio, ASRock Vision 3D HTPC, Chromecast
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post #28 of 28 Old 01-14-2015, 06:14 PM
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the TV needs a 24p input (like a BD recorded at 24p) to use Cinema Smooth (96Hz refresh rate)... otherwise it refreshes at 60Hz only and 1080/60i is 60 fields per second or 30 full frames per second (however, the source material is 24fps native so the TV must do reverse 2:3 pulldown to make the 60 fields into 24 frames and then it does 2:3 pulldown so that it can be displayed at a 60Hz refresh rate

(at least that's how I understand it)

with a refresh rate of 60Hz eveything displayed at that rate must be an even multiple of it (30, 60)

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
Display: Samsung UN46EH6030 LED-LCD TV; Audio: Yamaha HTR-3066 AVR/AMP, Sony Core Bookshelves (Sony SS-CS5) and Center (Sony SS-CS8) as fronts, Cambridge Audio S20 Bookshelves (CA S20-N) as surrounds, Dayton Audio SUB-1200 as subwoofer; Sources: PS4 (doubles as primary BD player), Xbox One, PS3, Xbox 360, Motorola RNG150N (Cable Box)
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