Consumer Level Disney World of Wonder (WOW) vs. DVE Blu Ray - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 450 Old 07-26-2011, 02:20 AM
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It sounds more like a Blu-ray Player thing. If you have a BD Player than can be adjusted... you need to make these corrections in the BD player ... if not ... you will need a BD Player that allows you to make these adjustments such as an Oppo BD-93 or Camridge Azur 751.

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Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

Why does setting the brightness with this WoW disc (and most other calibration discs, to be fair) result in an incorrect brightness setting with blu-ray playback?

The disc instructs you to adjust brightness until you can see all the way down to 1% above video black, but ensure you do not see black rise on the video black level.

It doesn't work on any of my plasmas though.

When you play back a blu ray disc after using this method, true video black does in fact dither. I am not talking about the letterbox bars (which is what the discs seem to calibrate) I am talking about the actual true video black within the blu-ray movie itself. When viewing the DVE Blu ray grayscale ramp pattern, with the video black white dot markers, the sets dither far past the white dot indicators. Lowering brightness so the dithering/rise from black begins directly after the dots fixes the problem, and sets brightness correctly. This is the only pattern that seems to be aligned with video black in blu ray playback.


It seems all the discs I own, DVE, WoW, AVS, all inform you how to adjust the brightness incorrectly. This holds true on several blu ray players and various tvs combinations I own. Tested on several discs as well.

Is it a plasma thing?


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post #272 of 450 Old 07-26-2011, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

When viewing the DVE Blu ray grayscale ramp pattern, with the video black white dot markers, the sets dither far past the white dot indicators. Lowering brightness so the dithering/rise from black begins directly after the dots fixes the problem, and sets brightness correctly. This is the only pattern that seems to be aligned with video black in blu ray playback.

I'm not sure why you seem to think one pattern is all-encompassing and other patterns are irrelevant. Have you tested your theory from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1348641 with actual movies? Go rent or buy some discs with a number of dark scenes. A few that quickly come to mind are 30 Days of Night, Pan's Labrynth, and some parts of The Dark Knight are very dim. Watch some darker scenes once with your setting from the ramp pattern and once with a setting from any typical brightness pattern. As people have already mentioned, you'll likely find your brightness setting from using the ramp is too low and might cut off dark gray information in dim scenes. That's exactly what the standard brightness patterns are telling you, that your brightness setting is too low to retain dark gray information on dim scenes.
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post #273 of 450 Old 07-27-2011, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I'm not sure why you seem to think one pattern is all-encompassing and other patterns are irrelevant. Have you tested your theory from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1348641 with actual movies? Go rent or buy some discs with a number of dark scenes. A few that quickly come to mind are 30 Days of Night, Pan's Labrynth, and some parts of The Dark Knight are very dim. Watch some darker scenes once with your setting from the ramp pattern and once with a setting from any typical brightness pattern. As people have already mentioned, you'll likely find your brightness setting from using the ramp is too low and might cut off dark gray information in dim scenes. That's exactly what the standard brightness patterns are telling you, that your brightness setting is too low to retain dark gray information on dim scenes.

Yes Ive tested most all of my discs, including nearly 70 blu rays, and tons of dvds.

It may just be a Panasonic plasma thing.

All my blu-ray players are setup correctly, as well as my tv sets. All on modes with flat gammas.

I was wrong in my initial post though: Setting up brightness as Joe Kane instructs in DVE, by backing down brightness on the plug pattern, and then raising brightness just until the 2% above video black appears is the only way video black does not dither in any of my movies. He states that the 2% bar should be hard to see against the video black background. This is much different then WoW and AVS instructs brightness to be setup, which results in video black remaining true in test patterns, but 2% above video black glowing quite brightly. This goes for all 3 Tvs, and 3 different blu ray players. This of course clips the 1% above black information.

Its not the end of the world. Just curious as to why the method on WoW is not working on any of my sets. It sets brightness too high for all film source. It is only correct with its own pattern.
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post #274 of 450 Old 07-27-2011, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

backing down brightness on the plug pattern, and then raising brightness just until the 2% above video black appears

Using this sort of procedure on a digital display can cause all information below 2% to be cut off. I think DVE uses luma 20 as 2%, so it's mainly 3 gray video levels above black (17-19) that are lost. I haven't had much luck at tracking down absolute support for this position. The biggest support seems merely to be displays with poor black or near-black performance, but personally I still tend to lean more toward first using room lighting for compensation, rather than subjectively destroying what appears to be valid video information.

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He states that the 2% bar should be hard to see against the video black background.

This will tend to vary somewhat from display to display, and depending on room lighting or viewing distance. I have no issue with the general position.

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This is much different then WoW and AVS instructs brightness to be setup, which results in video black remaining true in test patterns, but 2% above video black glowing quite brightly.

Assuming you're following written instructions, we're likely talking about 4 video levels. Maybe I have unrealistic expectations of display performance, because I typically expect the levels above black to be nearly indistinguishable from black, especially with room lighting and on a static pattern like DVE uses.
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post #275 of 450 Old 09-07-2011, 11:05 AM
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Thank development team for a great product. I'm satisfied with the result. One thing I have to add though. I have to use some "advanced" settings, which you recommended to turn them all off, to achieve the blacker than black level . Several examples are the local dimming on the XVT553SV, Black tone (darkest) and dynamic contrast (highest) on the LN55B650. I have to use them to pass your brightness and contrast tests. Some times it's too dark due to those function not working consistently, but it's still better than a constant greyist black all the time.
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post #276 of 450 Old 02-12-2012, 06:02 PM
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I am not as familiar with the Joe Kane disc as you are.

However, I would check yuk "Auto Yuck" settings ... something does not seem right. You are not getting the full dynamic range of your HDTV Panel and losing detail in the dark areas if your are clipping +1% black.

I just had D-Nice here on Saturday. He calibrated my KRP-500M and my KRP-600M as well as a Panasonic ST-30.

The professional ISF setting using his meter and software were spot on identical to the WOW disc. I can assure you the patterns on this disc have been checked by dozens of engineers and countless ISF professionals at this point. The WOW disc is highly accurate and reference quality.

So you are saying the disc calibrates to its own black level just fine. Then, when you put a Blu-ray movie in this exact same BD Player connected the exact same way you get a rise in black level? Am I understanding this correctly?

What BD Player you are using and does it have calibration controls. Are you getting the black level rise when using 1080P content on your BD Player?


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Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

Yes Ive tested most all of my discs, including nearly 70 blu rays, and tons of dvds.

It may just be a Panasonic plasma thing.

All my blu-ray players are setup correctly, as well as my tv sets. All on modes with flat gammas.

I was wrong in my initial post though: Setting up brightness as Joe Kane instructs in DVE, by backing down brightness on the plug pattern, and then raising brightness just until the 2% above video black appears is the only way video black does not dither in any of my movies. He states that the 2% bar should be hard to see against the video black background. This is much different then WoW and AVS instructs brightness to be setup, which results in video black remaining true in test patterns, but 2% above video black glowing quite brightly. This goes for all 3 Tvs, and 3 different blu ray players. This of course clips the 1% above black information.

Its not the end of the world. Just curious as to why the method on WoW is not working on any of my sets. It sets brightness too high for all film source. It is only correct with its own pattern.


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post #277 of 450 Old 02-17-2012, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

Yes Ive tested most all of my discs, including nearly 70 blu rays, and tons of dvds.

It may just be a Panasonic plasma thing.

All my blu-ray players are setup correctly, as well as my tv sets. All on modes with flat gammas.

I was wrong in my initial post though: Setting up brightness as Joe Kane instructs in DVE, by backing down brightness on the plug pattern, and then raising brightness just until the 2% above video black appears is the only way video black does not dither in any of my movies. He states that the 2% bar should be hard to see against the video black background. This is much different then WoW and AVS instructs brightness to be setup, which results in video black remaining true in test patterns, but 2% above video black glowing quite brightly. This goes for all 3 Tvs, and 3 different blu ray players. This of course clips the 1% above black information.

Its not the end of the world. Just curious as to why the method on WoW is not working on any of my sets. It sets brightness too high for all film source. It is only correct with its own pattern.

All brightness patterns match on my test discs, ramps remain correct, and movies look right with pure black available. This on my Panasonic plasma.

You may have one of the auto/dynamic/magic modes on doing something. But if you turn off all dynamic processing and calibrate, it should remain correct and not be scene dependent which is what I think you are noticing.
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post #278 of 450 Old 02-20-2012, 11:46 AM
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recently bought it. Calibrated the tv last weekend. previously i used the free avsHD.

turned out i have an audio delay of close to 130ms. i knew something was wrong but i got used to the delay and finally i have fixed that now thanks to this disc.

problem i am having is with contrast settings. i have my contrast (picture settings in my sony tv) dialed in to the MAX by using this BD and yet i can't make the "invisible white stars" invisible. i have turned off all the extra picture settings but it doesn't help. I have seen some people reporting about it here. was anyone able to find a fix?? can it be a settings in my ps3?
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post #279 of 450 Old 02-20-2012, 01:54 PM
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I have the same issue with my Sony ex720. Both using my PS3 and my bluray player.
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post #280 of 450 Old 02-21-2012, 03:38 AM
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Glad the disc helped you with your audio issues. DIsney WOW is one of teh few discs that include Audio Tools.

Regarding your contrast setting, please read this.

On some HDTVs, you may notice a limited range of adjustment. This is by design on the part of the HDTV manufacturer. These limits avoid pushing the HDTV too far beyond ideal levels. Do not be concerned about the inability to exceed the limits indicated on the WOW test patterns. Your HDTV can be calibrated perfectly within the given range of adjustment.

CONTRAST: For the CONTRAST test pattern, you'll want the "Visible White Stars" to be visible without fading into the background. If you start losing the "Visible White Stars," your monitor is clipping, which is not optimal. In many cases, you will be able to see the Above White Stars on the test pattern. This is quite normal on many HDTV sets. The best setting in this case is to turn contrast up to the maximum possible level without losing "Visible White Stars" on the right side of the WOW test pattern and without introducing visible coloration (red, green or blue tint) to the Above White Stars. You may actually find that 100% contrast still does not clip or make the Visible White Stars vanish or add any visible coloration to the Above White Stars on the WOW test pattern. This would be considered your optimal calibrated setting.

SHARPNESS: The WOW Sharpness Tool is for very fine adjustment of your HDTV Sharpness setting. You must be very close to your HDTV in order to accurately calibrate Sharpness using this tool. Typically, a distance of 1 to 2 feet is recommended. Often, the correct Sharpness setting will be in the lower scale between 0% and 25% of the total adjustment range.

Using certain inputs on your HDTV, like PC, may restrict the number of adjustments you can make to your HDTV. For more information, please refer to your HDTV owner's manual or contact your HDTV manufacturer's customer service department.

____________________________________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by isrararrafi View Post

recently bought it. Calibrated the tv last
weekend. previously i used the free avsHD.

turned out i have an audio delay of close to 130ms. i knew something was wrong but i got used to the delay and finally i have fixed that now thanks to this disc.

problem i am having is with contrast settings. i have my contrast (picture settings in my sony tv) dialed in to the MAX by using this BD and yet i can't make the "invisible white stars" invisible. i have turned off all the extra picture settings but it doesn't help. I have seen some people reporting about it here. was anyone able to find a fix?? can it be a settings in my ps3?


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post #281 of 450 Old 02-23-2012, 08:46 AM
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Does anyone know what (if any) changes are there in the upcoming 2012 Disney WoW bluray?
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post #282 of 450 Old 02-24-2012, 01:48 AM
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There are no changes planned for this product.


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Does anyone know what (if any) changes are there in the upcoming 2012 Disney WoW bluray?


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post #283 of 450 Old 02-24-2012, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBFilms View Post

There are no changes planned for this product.

Say what?

I didn't know there was a 2012 version planned but with no changes, it's not new anyway.
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post #284 of 450 Old 02-24-2012, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post

Say what?

I didn't know there was a 2012 version planned but with no changes, it's not new anyway.

I found a preorder link while looking for local copies of the bluray.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/20462075

It has a different run time listed than the 2010 version. 180 minutes for the 2012 vs 240 for the 2010.
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post #285 of 450 Old 02-25-2012, 02:58 AM
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There are no new versions of Disney WOW planned.

That post on Wal*Mart has the incorrect artwork and run time.

There has always been a 2 Disc Version (240 Minutes / 2 Discs) and a 1 Disc Version (180 Minutes / 1 Disc( version of Disney WOW.

The 2 Disc and 1 Disc version have the exact same calibration disc in the package. However, the 2 Disc version has a Bonus Disc that features 1 Hour of Nature Loops set to music. Call it plasma eye candy if you will. The Bonus Disc has no calibration Tools on it ... only more demo content.

There are also these Disney WOW / Movie / HDMI Packs available.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...h+hdmi&x=0&y=0

The 1 Disc Version, 2 Disc Version, and HDMI Pack versions all include the same Disney WOW Calibration Disc. There are no differences between the any of them with respect to the Calibration DIsc included in the package.


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Originally Posted by gadianton View Post

I found a preorder link while looking for local copies of the bluray.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/20462075

It has a different run time listed than the 2010 version. 180 minutes for the 2012 vs 240 for the 2010.


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post #286 of 450 Old 02-25-2012, 03:00 AM
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Correct...there is no new disc or version planned.

There will be a packaging change coming up for the 1 disc....but it is only the packaging that will change. The 2 Disc packaging will remain the same.


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Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post

Say what?

I didn't know there was a 2012 version planned but with no changes, it's not new anyway.


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post #287 of 450 Old 02-25-2012, 10:37 AM
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No studio has yet to offer a system setup/calibration program that covers all the vital bases for a comprehensive system approach. Each of the currently available options on the market offer good learning and unique features. The 'Disney WOW' program is a genuinely brilliant and entertaining effort, just not complete.

The market is eager for a 3D test disc. Judging from two decades of various past programs, the next title from any studio will likely not be completely comprehensive, either. We shall see. There are always time and budgetary constraints to work within for any production.

Until we get a 3D test program, I encourage videophiles to invest in more than one title. The 'Disney WOW' disc is a very strong contender, and should be on the short list, most especially for novices. The 'AVS HD 709' program is free for folks with the computer aptitude to download and burn the disc, plus have a player that will read the format. Other popular titles cost relatively little to add to the mix. No collection should be without 'DVE: HD Basics,' due to its inclusion of human factors principles and other unique materials.

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post #288 of 450 Old 02-25-2012, 10:57 AM
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I think Spears and Munsil has a 3d cal. disc in the works. It was mentioned in the Blu-ray software section.
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post #289 of 450 Old 02-25-2012, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

I think Spears and Munsil has a 3d cal. disc in the works. It was mentioned in the Blu-ray software section.

As does Joe Kane Productions. At one time the 'Disney WOW' program was considered for an update with 3D test materials and other improvements. It appears that has been put on hold. However, large corporations typically frown upon premature announcements of projects they are investing in.
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post #290 of 450 Old 02-26-2012, 08:17 PM
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i think I can say with confidence that the biggest issue with Calibration Discs is the time, effort and money it takes to produce one of these products.

Disney WOW took well over 2 years to produce along with a tremendous effort to get the product to market. It costs a kings ransom not only for design and production ... but for legal, accounting, authoring, licensing, branding, packaging, sales, marketing and distribution as well.

2D Calibration discs already have a tough time with respect to ROI ... especially with products that compete for "free" that are available to Enthusiasts and Professionals. However, there is a large installed base of 2D HDTV Panels and enough people who want a simple user friendly disc with simple instructions that is easy to use to make a 2D Disc potentially profitable. I can assure you this disc was a very expensive and time consuming proposition. I can tell you that if I knew what I knew now, I would not have done it.

However, 3D does not have the benefit of a large installed base of consumers. 3D ... at best ... has a very small Mid single digit percentage of market share right now. A 3D calibration disc would cost even more to produce than a 2D disc and it would also cost more at retail as well. Some folks are already complaining about the cost of the 2D WOW Disc. I cannot imagine what they would say about the cost of a 3D Disc. The marketplace for a 3D Disc to sell a large enough volume to be profitable is simply not there.

Also, I am not convinced 3D will have enough market share / penetration anytime in the near future to warrant the investment. If it is successful, it will be many years before market share reaches the 30% to 40% or so required for a disc to be a viable product at the consumer level. I myself have only One (1) 3D Plasma in my home, in a Guest Bedroom. Everything else is 2D including my home theater. I watched it twice in 3D and have not had the desire to go back and watch any 3D movies since.

As far as an "end all be all" disc is concerned. It is very difficult to please everyone. Albeit, we tried our best with Disney WOW to at least make sure it is great for consumers and enthusiasts as well as a very respectable and useful product for Advanced Enthusiasts & Professionals. This is not an easy task I can assure you...

I think we found a good balance for most Consumers & many Enthusiasts. However, the "Hobbyist" will always want more patterns, tests, and calibration tools than they can actually use. Calibration that require access to Service Menus and the use of $15,000 worth of gear is something I do not even attempt ... despite being ISF Certified myself.

In my opinion, an "end all be all" product would not be a cost effective or desirable product to create. What enthusiasts want ... or think they can use ... is not what a consumer would want or would use on a disc. What a pro would want is altogether different from a consumer or enthusiast disc.

I believe that Consumers would find more advanced pattens and topics confusing and complicated. There is no reason for a Consumer to be looking at ... much less dealing with ... advanced test patterns that require meters or anything that require adjustment of more advanced controls using very expensive gear. That is best left to the professionals.

I for one, support & promote professional calibration for all those who have great HTDV Displays and can afford the cost. That last bit of performance and perfection is noticeable to most people on a superior display.

Bottom Line - These discs are VERY expensive to create, design, and produce ... or at least produce well ... and they are also expensive to QC properly and to package, manufacture, market, sell and distribute. If others are working on a 3D disc, more power to them. I will be sure to buy one when it comes out...

NOTE: I am not sure if this was off topic or not, but I felt compelled as a Producer / Director of Calibration Discs to add my 2 cents in response to a few recent posts. Sorry if I hijacked the thread or if I was off topic, that was not my intention by any means. I just want to shed light on the subject from a different perspective.

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post #291 of 450 Old 04-01-2012, 01:50 PM
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okay so i was doing some research and found out that they are coming out with disney wow "hdtv" not "hd" and was wondering if there were a difference?
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post #292 of 450 Old 04-01-2012, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forced_Fool View Post

okay so i was doing some research and found out that they are coming out with disney wow "hdtv" not "hd" and was wondering if there were a difference?

If your source of information was accurate, most likely it is only a minor change in packaging/marketing materials. Richard made it abundantly clear in the post previous to yours that no one should be expecting a re-do of the 'Disney WOW' program in the near term.
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post #293 of 450 Old 04-01-2012, 07:50 PM
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Search disney wow on amazon you will see a release date of apr 3 for $25 I think and the picture will say hdtvjust for the clarrification. I can't find a website that talks about it though which is bugging me.. should I wait or get the original?
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post #294 of 450 Old 04-01-2012, 08:28 PM
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post #295 of 450 Old 04-01-2012, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I see it too.

http://www.amazon.com/WOW-World-Of-W...3337292&sr=8-5

"This title will be released on April 3, 2012."

Its the same, just drops the visions disk.
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post #296 of 450 Old 04-02-2012, 03:01 AM
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Correct...thank you...

We just dropped the Visions "Bonus" Disc which includes nature content "Loops" averaging about 5 Minutes each set to an original music score. For a lack of a better term, it is a disc of Plasma Eye Candy.

The WOW Calibration Disc in the package is EXACTLY the same as the current WOW Disc. There is no difference between the current WOW Disc in the 2 DIsc Package verses the WOW DIsc in the 1 DIsc Package ... except for the price.

The 1 Disc Version is less expensive. A few people complained about the cost, so we made a less expensive version for those that do not want to spend the money on the 2 Disc Version.


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Originally Posted by Superman2 View Post

Its the same, just drops the visions disk.


Richard J. Casey



Disney WOW - World of Wonder


Producers Guild of America, New Media Council
(BD Industry Insider)
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post #297 of 450 Old 04-02-2012, 05:04 AM
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Are there any distributors in the UK?
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post #298 of 450 Old 04-02-2012, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2stroker View Post

Are there any distributors in the UK?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Disney-Wow-W.../dp/B00567TD7I

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wow-World-Di.../dp/B0045ASBLG
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post #299 of 450 Old 04-02-2012, 08:44 AM
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realzven,

Thanks for the reply, I wasn't being lazy as I'd already found them as imports. Really, I wanted to buy direct from UK seller in case of problems. Looks as though imports are the only choice.

Vince
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post #300 of 450 Old 04-02-2012, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBFilms View Post

There is no difference between the current WOW Disc in the 2 DIsc Package verses the WOW DIsc in the 1 DIsc Package ... except for the price.

The 1 Disc Version is less expensive. A few people complained about the cost, so we made a less expensive version for those that do not want to spend the money on the 2 Disc Version.

it looks like you can now get the 2 disc version for the same price as the single disc version, at least on Amazon
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