Consumer Level Disney World of Wonder (WOW) vs. DVE Blu Ray - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 450 Old 04-25-2011, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolGamer12 View Post

I know this is a weird question, but what Color Temp should my HDTV be on when I'm calibrating it with Disney WoW? My HDTV's Color Temp Options are Cool, Neutral, Warm 1, and Warm 2.

It's hard to say without actually measuring, but I would guess Neutral. Cool might be too blue and Warm2 might be too red. Look at a grayscale ramp pattern, compare them all, and choose the one where the different degrees of gray look "gray", with no hints of blue or red.
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post #182 of 450 Old 04-26-2011, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolGamer12 View Post

I know this is a weird question, but what Color Temp should my HDTV be on when I'm calibrating it with Disney WoW? My HDTV's Color Temp Options are Cool, Neutral, Warm 1, and Warm 2.

Calibrate with whatever looks best to you. However, in nearly all cases with all manufacturers, warm 2 is intended to be closest to Rec.709 HD standards.

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post #183 of 450 Old 04-27-2011, 11:05 AM
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I've read all 7 pages of this thread and decided to give WOW a try, just ordered via Amazon and should have within 5-7 days (free shipping).

Also, I am hosting a Area Home Theatre Meet at my home in 2 1/2 weeks, Sat May 14th, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1322007 .
Calibratrion was not on the agenda, but since I'm getting this disc, and already own DVE, I can see value in a brief review of the 2 discs for the 12-14 avs members who will be over.

This gives me the weekend of May 7th to use this disc, so I'll probably post here my impressions and whatever q's arise.

fwiw, here is my HT layout and equipment.
I'm decent at using REW5 also.
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post #184 of 450 Old 04-27-2011, 11:21 AM
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Look very, very closely at the sharpness pattern. It is a fine tuning adjustment that requires very close observation. On my Panasonic Plasma, I notice little difference...but it is visible...there is a point where it starts to degrade or get edge artifacts. On my lower performing Sony, it is MUCH more noticeable.

This is fine detail adjustment tool...it does not go grossly out of adjustment like the others I have seen. For a total tweaker like me, I find it to be very accurate. However, you should use whatever you think is best for you application.


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My Epson 6100 has a Standard Sharpness control, and a Advanced Sharpness control. Within the Advanced Sharpness control, there are four controls...Thin Line Enhancement, Thick Line Enhancement, Vertical Line Enhancement and Horizontal Enhancement.

The changes they make are immediately and extremely perceptible on every Sharpness pattern I have...DVE, Avia, Get Gray, and AVSHD. In fact, if I turn up my sharpness high enough, I can make the Star Chart on the AVSHD disk look like a Mandelbrot set.

With these disks, setting sharpness is easy. In fact, I can set sharpness to a level where halos are visible on all four disks, then with these settings, switch to the WOW disk and see no artifacts whatsoever.

Again, I'm not trying to bash the WOW disk. The rest of the patterns work exactly as they should. The explanations are quite thorough and the demo material is extensive. My only problem is with the sharpness pattern.


Richard J. Casey



Disney WOW - World of Wonder


Producers Guild of America, New Media Council
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post #185 of 450 Old 04-27-2011, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBFilms View Post

Look very, very closely at the sharpness pattern. It is a fine tuning adjustment that requires very close observation. On my Panasonic Plasma, I notice little difference...but it is visible...there is a point where it starts to degrade or get edge artifacts. On my lower performing Sony, it is MUCH more noticeable.

This is fine detail adjustment tool...it does not go grossly out of adjustment like the others I have seen. For a total tweaker like me, I find it to be very accurate. However, you should use whatever you think is best for you application.

Now that's a response I can accept.
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post #186 of 450 Old 04-30-2011, 11:57 AM
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I switched off all enhancement features on my HDTV, but should I leave CineMotion on or off? The options are Auto & Off.
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post #187 of 450 Old 05-04-2011, 09:19 AM
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Would this work well with a Projection TV such as the Mitsubishi 65838?

Thanks
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post #188 of 450 Old 05-07-2011, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolGamer12 View Post

I know this is a weird question, but what Color Temp should my HDTV be on when I'm calibrating it with Disney WoW? My HDTV's Color Temp Options are Cool, Neutral, Warm 1, and Warm 2.

You want to pick the one that has the most neutral looking gray in the grayscale pattern on this disc. This means no blue or red hue, and white shouldn't look dynamic, it should appear as a flat, clean white.

This is really tricky to do by eye.

A better way to try by eye is to look at real content, I find using an image with rocks/mountains in the sun works well. Toggle through the temps until they look like rocks in the sun. It is easy to detect too much blue this way, and therefor avoid a color temp thats too high.

A beach or sand image in daylight works well too. When the temperature is too cool, the sand looks too white and loses its color.

The whites of eyes are another good one to try.

With a little research you could probably find some information on which is most accurate online.
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post #189 of 450 Old 06-03-2011, 06:58 PM
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I read that the Disney WOW disk doesnt support the 10 point white balance that my samsung Pn58c8000 has. If so does that mean i wont get the best results out of this product and should choose the SM instead?
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post #190 of 450 Old 06-05-2011, 10:33 AM
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I posted this on another site, but I thought I'd share some observations since I've used 4 different calibration discs now: the DVE, Spears & Muncil, the Monster HDTV Calibration Wizardand Disney's WOW .

The DVE Bluray is way easier to navigate than the standard def version. The Brightness test is okay, but the Contrast test is useless as far as I'm concerned. The specialized HD color bar/tint test is really the reason to get the DVE. It's not only easy to adjust, but more accurate than the SMPTE test. Usually the SMPTE test wants my color to be around 49/50. But the DVE HD color bar test has my perfect color at 48. Sounds like it wouldn't make much difference, yet 48 really does look more accurate and is a bit easier on the eye.

The Spears & Muncil is a very nice all around calibration disc. It has a similarly unique HD color test of it's own, but not quite as easy to gauge as the DVE. I think I like it's Brightness test more because there's a couple of effective patterns, especially the checkerboard. The Contrast test is also better than the DVE because it includes a couple of ramps with number bars (one for Brightness and one for Contrast) and the instructions tell you how the two ramps should look together, which helps in calibrating both adjustments. The S&M disc (that sounds bad) is also very easy to navigate. I'd definitely say this disc has the overall edge over the DVE.

The Monster HDTV Calibration Wizard is surprisingly the best Contrast test for me (so far). Primarily because my HDTV seems relatively unfazed by various fancier tests. I can have the Panasonic Contrast all the way to 100 and still see the whiter-than-whites clearly. This disc, however, has a very simple video of a dude wearing a very white shirt. And even though the buttons never really "disappear", which is what we're supposed to look for, it's great for adjusting the Contrast to the point where it's bright enough to pop, yet not too much. The real trick is to get it as bright as you can while still looking natural. The brightness test is quite nice too. It's a dude wearing a black coat, black shirt and tie (so you can make sure to distinguish the different black levels). Even better, there's a blacker-than-black "X" that moves around in the dark background. You are to lower Brightness until the "X" disappears into the background. What makes this great is this test seems to work even on DVD players that clip blacks. I know this because I tried to calibrate my aunt's new HDTV thru her rather modest DVD player and the blackest bar from my DVE was completely clipped. I put the Monster in and the "X" was clearly visible. All other tests on this disc are worthless, judge by your own eye color and sharpness tests.

Finally, I have to say I'm completely impressed with Disney's WOW calibration disc. I love that it provides demonstrations before having to make adjustments yourself. I also like the uniqueness of the Brightness and Contrast tests (especially in the Advanced settings) and the fact they have indicators of what should be visible and what shouldn't be. Not as good for me at judging Contrast as the Monster disc, but still impressive. I'd say the Brightness test, however, is almost as good as the S&M disc. Really, you can't go wrong with either of these discs in terms of Brightness. The Color test is the same old SMPTE test, so no revelations there, but this has the best Sharpness test of all the discs. It's similar to the standard Sharpness test pattern, but with more going on within the pattern for better adjustment. On a side note, I also really like the WOW's Audio/Video sync test and the Pixel Flip tool (which allegedly "exercises" your screens pixels). This is a really nifty calibration disc, I have to say. The only annoyance is it seems to take a long time switching between tests, but that may just be my Bluray player needing an upgrade or something.

So all these discs have advantages:
DVE: Color and Tint is best for HD, Brightness decent
Spears & Muncil: Brightness best, Color and Tint 2nd best, Contrast decent.
Monster HDTV Calibration Wizard: Contrast best, Brightness decent (good for sources that clip blacks)
Disney's WOW: Sharpness best, Brightness and Contrast 2nd best

For me, the DVE and Monster are pretty invaluable for Color and Contrast respectively. If you can only choose one disc, however, I'd say it's a toss up between the Spears & Muncil and the WOW. S&M having the edge on color, but the WOW having the edge on everything else.
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post #191 of 450 Old 06-06-2011, 04:29 AM
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thanks Voyeur for this great review
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post #192 of 450 Old 06-07-2011, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolGamer12 View Post

I know this is a weird question, but what Color Temp should my HDTV be on when I'm calibrating it with Disney WoW? My HDTV's Color Temp Options are Cool, Neutral, Warm 1, and Warm 2.

I'd like to know this too. I see there is no agreement in the answers so far.

My first notion would have been to start with neutral so you have a clean slate and aren't trying to compensate for any adjustments the TV is making, but I use a warm setting for BDs now and it seems to look the best.
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post #193 of 450 Old 06-07-2011, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedZeppelin View Post

I'd like to know this too. I see there is no agreement in the answers so far.

The answers below agree quite well. It is not really possible for us to state with certainty which one is 'right' bacause we can't see the picture. As buzzard767 stated, the warmest setting is typically intended to be closest to the standard used by professional calibrators. But this is why you bought a calibration disc. Put up the grayscale patterns and determine which one is 'right' as best you can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

Look at a grayscale ramp pattern, compare them all, and choose the one where the different degrees of gray look "gray", with no hints of blue or red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

You want to pick the one that has the most neutral looking gray in the grayscale pattern on this disc. This means no blue or red hue, and white shouldn't look dynamic, it should appear as a flat, clean white.

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post #194 of 450 Old 06-07-2011, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by djams View Post

The answers below agree quite well. It is not really possible for us to state with certainty which one is 'right' bacause we can't see the picture. As buzzard767 stated, the warmest setting is typically intended to be closest to the standard used by professional calibrators. But this is why you bought a calibration disc. Put up the grayscale patterns and determine which one is 'right' as best you can.

The reason calibrators start there is because the warm settings are designed to be closest to recognized HD standards. I'm working on a Samsung HL67A750 LED DLP today. In the service menu, the factory setting for Warm 2 is x=.3127 and y=.3290, the exact position of the standard D65 white point on the CIE chart.

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post #195 of 450 Old 06-08-2011, 03:21 AM
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For the WOW Disc, I use the setting that gives you the least "coloration" of the patterns...meaning they should look B&W or Neutral in color.

The easiest pattern to see this on is the Contrast Pattern. It has a white background with white stars that can turn gray while adjusting settings.

I use the setting that gives me the least amount of coloration when viewing this pattern. Meaning, I look for an Image closest to a pure B&W lacking any coloration.

On many HDTV Panels ... the names can vary but Warm 2 or Neutral are popular choices.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RedZeppelin View Post

I'd like to know this too. I see there is no agreement in the answers so far.

My first notion would have been to start with neutral so you have a clean slate and aren't trying to compensate for any adjustments the TV is making, but I use a warm setting for BDs now and it seems to look the best.


Richard J. Casey



Disney WOW - World of Wonder


Producers Guild of America, New Media Council
(BD Industry Insider)
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post #196 of 450 Old 06-08-2011, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

The reason calibrators start there is because the warm settings are designed to be closest to recognized HD standards. I'm working on a Samsung HL67A750 LED DLP today. In the service menu, the factory setting for Warm 2 is x=.3127 and y=.3290, the exact position of the standard D65 white point on the CIE chart.

It's the same on my LG LD520 - service menu Warm set point is x .313, y.329, and this is what I use. The Cool setting coordinates are at 13,000K - very blue...

I shouldn't have put 'right' in quotes like I did, the implications are not clear. I didn't mean to imply that the industry standards and all the professional calibrators out there aren't 'right'.

The quotes were because, prior to 10pt white balance calibration the Warm setting on my TV produced a kind of yellowish-green, muddy picture - and using the "Medium" setting seemed to help this problem (although there were other undesirable side effects). Because of this experience, I didn't want to discourage anyone from choosing the setting that looks best to them.

After full calibration, the Warm setting creates an amazing picture on my set.
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post #197 of 450 Old 06-08-2011, 01:48 PM
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Here are the settings I got on my Panny Plasma:

Contrast 100
Brightness 63
Color 65
Tint -3
Sharpness 35 (Default is 50. honestly I didn't see any difference between 0 and 100, but I did see a slight difference when it comes to text, such as from the channel guide). So I kept this setting lower but not 0.
Color Temp: Warm2
Black levels: light

I was struggling with the contrast calibration because in beginner's setting, the only way I could see the right vertical test strip was by turning Superwhite on. I could not wash out the whites even with maximum 100 contrast. So I kept it there. Otherwise, I think the settings are good.
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post #198 of 450 Old 06-09-2011, 07:05 AM
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I'm anxious to try out this disk but I have to wait for the right conditions. I don't have blackout blinds in my living room where the HT is so it can go from annoyingly bright during the day to dark at night. I need to wait for a happy medium -- maybe a cloudy day -- in order to calibrate.

Aside from the video calibration have any of you gone through the audio calibration using a sound meter? Did it make a major difference? I'm pretty happy with my surround as is so I'm not sure if it's worth it to buy a sound meter.
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post #199 of 450 Old 06-09-2011, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedZeppelin View Post
I'm anxious to try out this disk but I have to wait for the right conditions. I don't have blackout blinds in my living room where the HT is so it can go from annoyingly bright during the day to dark at night. I need to wait for a happy medium -- maybe a cloudy day -- in order to calibrate.

Aside from the video calibration have any of you gone through the audio calibration using a sound meter? Did it make a major difference? I'm pretty happy with my surround as is so I'm not sure if it's worth it to buy a sound meter.
I didn't do anything regarding a sound meter, but I did try the audio/video sync test. I thought it was pretty nifty. Ended up adjusting my rear speakers' distance one notch further.
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post #200 of 450 Old 06-13-2011, 10:53 AM
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Stupid question: Do the Beginner, Advanced, and Expert sections build on each other so that you should do all three, or if you've already calibrated a bit using other tools and know what you're doing should you just start with Advanced or Expert?
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post #201 of 450 Old 06-13-2011, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by RedZeppelin View Post
Stupid question: Do the Beginner, Advanced, and Expert sections build on each other so that you should do all three, or if you've already calibrated a bit using other tools and know what you're doing should you just start with Advanced or Expert?
You can pretty much go straight to Advanced. In fact, I recommend it. Expert appears to be the various test patterns without instructions, most of which you'll find in Advanced.
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post #202 of 450 Old 06-17-2011, 10:02 AM
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I am very interested in the WOW disk, but have a question or three:

My LG set (55LW5600 passive 3D set) has a built in Picture Wizard that seems to do a reasonable job with walking you through brightness and contrast settings (using nested black boxes and then nested white boxes), sharpness settings (by looking for edge artifacts on some black rectangles), and basic color and hue (using nested blue boxes, basically replicating the use of a blue filter). But my set also provided access to individual R, G, and B brightness and contrast settings, as well as a separate screen that allows level adjustments (+/-) for six colors.

I have no idea what to do with these settings, without the use of a meter. For that matter, I don't know if these two screens are "overlapping", in the sense of being two different ways to achieve the same goals. My sense is that the separate RGB brightness and contrast settings would be used in gray-scale calibration, whereas th six-color level adjustments would perhaps be used with a standard color bar chart?

Are there procedures in the WOW disk that would be useful for optimizing down to this level - individual adjustment of RGB brightness and contrast, etc., without using a meter?

Finally, are there any tools aimed at setting motion-related options, such as de-judder and de-blur?

Even if my set's built-in Picture Wizard does a credible job, I'm sure the WOW process will be more accurate.
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post #203 of 450 Old 06-24-2011, 05:09 PM
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I have noticed with 4 different calibration methods (my set's built-in patterns, DVE, Monster Cable & WOW), on the SAME tv, people are ending up with wildly different results on contrast, backlight and sharpness. I must say that in regards to color, tint & brightness, most users, including myself report relatively CLOSE results from one test calibration disc to another when all users have identically set LH90's in regards to color gamut-standard, color temp-warm, gamma, noise reduction-off, edge enhancement-off, local dimming-on.

Now, due to the fact that not all sharpness patterns are going to be the same when it comes to causing a tv's circuits to produce noise and each individual set, even from the same model line may have slightly different responses from the test patterns on these calibration discs, I can excuse the differences people report on sharpness settings. Different results would be NORMAL. I found DVE's main sharpness pattern did the best job of getting my 55LH90 to show light noise even at it's default setting of '50' where other test patterns didn't show any noise at all.

Backlight is another one that has no real test pattern to measure it. I set my backlight comparitively with the light intensity looking out my window during daytime. When my tv seems to give off comparitively bright output with daylight, I stop there. During nighttime viewing I bump the backlight down a bit for eye comfort sometimes, although most of the time, the backlight is perfectly fine because I know it matches daylight intensity, hence, realistic daytime scenes in movies viewed in a dark room. I can excuse people having different settings because this is going to be a matter of taste and user preference in the end.

Now I get to the setting that is chaffing my butt and has me a bit upset at these calibration disc makers. It seems there is no true standardization for contrast test patterns/dynamic range settings. One calibration disc ends up with a wildly different setting than another. Check out these results

1. Built-in tv test pattern = high 80's (most users report high 80's when using the built-in test pattern on the LG LH90)
2. DVE = 90's (common reported contrast for the LH LH90 by users is in the 90's)
3. WOW = low 80's (most users who calibrated with WOW on the LG LH90 report a contrast setting in the low 80's)
4. Monster = 90's (common reported contrast for LG LH90 is in the 90's, although some rare ones in the 80's)

My LH90 is no exception. These contrast test patterns have me dialing in a completely different result depending on who's pattern I'm using. That can't be accurate. It has me asking, "who's pattern is guiding me to the correct setting"?

Now, there must be a way to get these experts together so they can create a better way to set contrast. If a test pattern is used to dial in a precise setting, then it should be easily duplicated by another properly developed test pattern. I get virtually identical results from different color test patterns, different brightness test patterns but for some inexplicable reason, contrast patterns from different sources don't seem to be standardized at all and produce wildly different settings. THEY SHOULD NOT!

So, I think the experts need to get together and start making SURE their contrast test patterns they develop all meet a much more strict standard which produces a very close settings result on the same TV. There is no excuse for the results to be so different if these test patterns are to be used for true standardized calibration purposes.
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post #204 of 450 Old 06-25-2011, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyeur View Post

I posted this on another site, but I thought I'd share some observations since I've used 4 different calibration discs now: the DVE, Spears & Muncil, the Monster HDTV Calibration Wizardand Disney's WOW .

The DVE Bluray is way easier to navigate than the standard def version. The Brightness test is okay, but the Contrast test is useless as far as I'm concerned. The specialized HD color bar/tint test is really the reason to get the DVE. It's not only easy to adjust, but more accurate than the SMPTE test. Usually the SMPTE test wants my color to be around 49/50. But the DVE HD color bar test has my perfect color at 48. Sounds like it wouldn't make much difference, yet 48 really does look more accurate and is a bit easier on the eye.

The Spears & Muncil is a very nice all around calibration disc. It has a similarly unique HD color test of it's own, but not quite as easy to gauge as the DVE. I think I like it's Brightness test more because there's a couple of effective patterns, especially the checkerboard. The Contrast test is also better than the DVE because it includes a couple of ramps with number bars (one for Brightness and one for Contrast) and the instructions tell you how the two ramps should look together, which helps in calibrating both adjustments. The S&M disc (that sounds bad) is also very easy to navigate. I'd definitely say this disc has the overall edge over the DVE.

The Monster HDTV Calibration Wizard is surprisingly the best Contrast test for me (so far). Primarily because my HDTV seems relatively unfazed by various fancier tests. I can have the Panasonic Contrast all the way to 100 and still see the whiter-than-whites clearly. This disc, however, has a very simple video of a dude wearing a very white shirt. And even though the buttons never really "disappear", which is what we're supposed to look for, it's great for adjusting the Contrast to the point where it's bright enough to pop, yet not too much. The real trick is to get it as bright as you can while still looking natural. The brightness test is quite nice too. It's a dude wearing a black coat, black shirt and tie (so you can make sure to distinguish the different black levels). Even better, there's a blacker-than-black "X" that moves around in the dark background. You are to lower Brightness until the "X" disappears into the background. What makes this great is this test seems to work even on DVD players that clip blacks. I know this because I tried to calibrate my aunt's new HDTV thru her rather modest DVD player and the blackest bar from my DVE was completely clipped. I put the Monster in and the "X" was clearly visible. All other tests on this disc are worthless, judge by your own eye color and sharpness tests.

Finally, I have to say I'm completely impressed with Disney's WOW calibration disc. I love that it provides demonstrations before having to make adjustments yourself. I also like the uniqueness of the Brightness and Contrast tests (especially in the Advanced settings) and the fact they have indicators of what should be visible and what shouldn't be. Not as good for me at judging Contrast as the Monster disc, but still impressive. I'd say the Brightness test, however, is almost as good as the S&M disc. Really, you can't go wrong with either of these discs in terms of Brightness. The Color test is the same old SMPTE test, so no revelations there, but this has the best Sharpness test of all the discs. It's similar to the standard Sharpness test pattern, but with more going on within the pattern for better adjustment. On a side note, I also really like the WOW's Audio/Video sync test and the Pixel Flip tool (which allegedly "exercises" your screens pixels). This is a really nifty calibration disc, I have to say. The only annoyance is it seems to take a long time switching between tests, but that may just be my Bluray player needing an upgrade or something.

So all these discs have advantages:
DVE: Color and Tint is best for HD, Brightness decent
Spears & Muncil: Brightness best, Color and Tint 2nd best, Contrast decent.
Monster HDTV Calibration Wizard: Contrast best, Brightness decent (good for sources that clip blacks)
Disney's WOW: Sharpness best, Brightness and Contrast 2nd best

For me, the DVE and Monster are pretty invaluable for Color and Contrast respectively. If you can only choose one disc, however, I'd say it's a toss up between the Spears & Muncil and the WOW. S&M having the edge on color, but the WOW having the edge on everything else.

Very comprehensive, much appreciated! I have a Panasonic TC-P55ST30 coming this week and will most likely end up getting the WOW and Spears & Munsil discs to have a base of comparison.
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post #205 of 450 Old 06-25-2011, 05:40 AM
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Hi,

I know all of these discs well. They are based on Industry Standards and should all accurate. I can attest to the fact that DISNEY WOW is very accurate. I would be surprised if the others you mentioned were not.

The difference can be attributed to a few things.

* Some have FINER calibration scales than others. You can have some older patterns that are within 4%, some are capable of 2% accuracy, and some give you 1% accuracy or better.

* If a viewer is not exactly sure what to look for, the settings can be somewhat subjective. The level of instructions that come with the discs can vary greatly. Some are very detailed, some assume you know what you are doing and others provide more direction on what to look for.

* If you are not calibrating your BD Player ... and checking to see if your AVR is not affecting the signal when it is in the path ... you can easily get different results from every source every time. This would explain the difference between the HDTV Panel internal test pattern and the external ones you are using. This would also explain why people get different results.

The entire signal path must be calibrated to get accurate results and optimal system performance. Without adjusting ALL Parameters using a Meter and Software, results will vary to some degree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

I have noticed with 4 different calibration methods (my set's built-in patterns, DVE, Monster Cable & WOW), on the SAME tv, people are ending up with wildly different results on contrast, backlight and sharpness. I must say that in regards to color, tint & brightness, most users, including myself report relatively CLOSE results from one test calibration disc to another when all users have identically set LH90's in regards to color gamut-standard, color temp-warm, gamma, noise reduction-off, edge enhancement-off, local dimming-on.

Now, due to the fact that not all sharpness patterns are going to be the same when it comes to causing a tv's circuits to produce noise and each individual set, even from the same model line may have slightly different responses from the test patterns on these calibration discs, I can excuse the differences people report on sharpness settings. Different results would be NORMAL. I found DVE's main sharpness pattern did the best job of getting my 55LH90 to show light noise even at it's default setting of '50' where other test patterns didn't show any noise at all.

Backlight is another one that has no real test pattern to measure it. I set my backlight comparitively with the light intensity looking out my window during daytime. When my tv seems to give off comparitively bright output with daylight, I stop there. During nighttime viewing I bump the backlight down a bit for eye comfort sometimes, although most of the time, the backlight is perfectly fine because I know it matches daylight intensity, hence, realistic daytime scenes in movies viewed in a dark room. I can excuse people having different settings because this is going to be a matter of taste and user preference in the end.

Now I get to the setting that is chaffing my butt and has me a bit upset at these calibration disc makers. It seems there is no true standardization for contrast test patterns/dynamic range settings. One calibration disc ends up with a wildly different setting than another. Check out these results

1. Built-in tv test pattern = high 80's (most users report high 80's when using the built-in test pattern on the LG LH90)
2. DVE = 90's (common reported contrast for the LH LH90 by users is in the 90's)
3. WOW = low 80's (most users who calibrated with WOW on the LG LH90 report a contrast setting in the low 80's)
4. Monster = 90's (common reported contrast for LG LH90 is in the 90's, although some rare ones in the 80's)

My LH90 is no exception. These contrast test patterns have me dialing in a completely different result depending on who's pattern I'm using. That can't be accurate. It has me asking, "who's pattern is guiding me to the correct setting"?

Now, there must be a way to get these experts together so they can create a better way to set contrast. If a test pattern is used to dial in a precise setting, then it should be easily duplicated by another properly developed test pattern. I get virtually identical results from different color test patterns, different brightness test patterns but for some inexplicable reason, contrast patterns from different sources don't seem to be standardized at all and produce wildly different settings. THEY SHOULD NOT!

So, I think the experts need to get together and start making SURE their contrast test patterns they develop all meet a much more strict standard which produces a very close settings result on the same TV. There is no excuse for the results to be so different if these test patterns are to be used for true standardized calibration purposes.


Richard J. Casey



Disney WOW - World of Wonder


Producers Guild of America, New Media Council
(BD Industry Insider)
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Originally Posted by luigionlsd View Post

Very comprehensive, much appreciated! I have a Panasonic TC-P55ST30 coming this week and will most likely end up getting the WOW and Spears & Munsil discs to have a base of comparison.

Thanks. Yeah, I feel those are the cream of the crop.
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post #207 of 450 Old 06-27-2011, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by RBFilms View Post

Hi,

I know all of these discs well. They are based on Industry Standards and should all accurate. I can attest to the fact that DISNEY WOW is very accurate. I would be surprised if the others you mentioned were not.

The difference can be attributed to a few things.

* Some have FINER calibration scales than others. You can have some older patterns that are within 4%, some are capable of 2% accuracy, and some give you 1% accuracy or better.

* If a viewer is not exactly sure what to look for, the settings can be somewhat subjective. The level of instructions that come with the discs can vary greatly. Some are very detailed, some assume you know what you are doing and others provide more direction on what to look for.

Ok. In regards to "CONTRAST", I submit there is no real room to mess it up based on how each calibration pattern is presented and the instructions in which it's telling you to use.

DVE = A contrast pattern which shows a split up/down screen with the top half of the screen having white pallette on the left fading to black pallet on the right. Then the bottom of the screen with the reverse (black left/white on the right). The instructions are to increase the contrast until the 2nd to the last bar just barely "matches" the whiter than white bar. Simple, unmistakable instructions.

The built-in test pattern on my LH90 set, clearly shows a white outer box and it instructs you to turn up the contrast until the inner box just matches the brightness of the outer box. Unmistakable written instructions

The Monster video utilizes a white shirt with buttons with instructions to turn up the contrast until just before the buttons disappear.

The results can't be really argued. They are DIFFERENT. The test patterns are obviously not standardized to give even a 'ballpark' result that is similar. The same goes with the WOW disc where it's contrast test is having people with my LH90 model setting their contrast marketedly lower than most other test patterns. There is not really a set standard of measurement here and it's not hard to prove.

Quote:


* If you are not calibrating your BD Player ... and checking to see if your AVR is not affecting the signal when it is in the path ... you can easily get different results from every source every time. This would explain the difference between the HDTV Panel internal test pattern and the external ones you are using. This would also explain why people get different results.

I assure you that my Blu-ray player is passing a standard signal and the only possible effect that could have interfered was defeated in my TV (*xvYCC), was actually was a problem at first but no longer. Ever since that change, the settings to my TV carry over to my HD cable picture as well. The results are consistent across different inputs.

Quote:


The entire signal path must be calibrated to get accurate results and optimal system performance. Without adjusting ALL Parameters using a Meter and Software, results will vary to some degree.

The variance I'm reporting is not due to any settings or parameters and a meter is not necessary to find that the test patterns for contrast are not consistent when using the same TV set without any of it's distorting features on, a standard color gamut and warm color temperature.

As I said. All but 3 settings come out with very consistent results. Color, tint and brightness seem consistent across all test discs on my TV. 2 of the 3 that aren't consistent, well, it's NORMAL for them to show variance due to different patterns having different effects on TV circuits and no real test for backlight intensity other than eye comfort.

That leaves "contrast" as the single trouble-maker setting which SHOULD have a pattern to obtain a "correct" setting but doesn't. We instead see different results from different test patterns. No standardization.
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post #208 of 450 Old 06-27-2011, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

1. Built-in tv test pattern = high 80's (most users report high 80's when using the built-in test pattern on the LG LH90)
2. DVE = 90's (common reported contrast for the LH LH90 by users is in the 90's)
3. WOW = low 80's (most users who calibrated with WOW on the LG LH90 report a contrast setting in the low 80's)
4. Monster = 90's (common reported contrast for LG LH90 is in the 90's, although some rare ones in the 80's)

I appreciate the fact that what he is saying is that MOST users are finding the same discrepancies. This really needs to be better explained. I would also like to know why this is occurring.
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post #209 of 450 Old 06-28-2011, 10:49 AM
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I appreciate the fact that what he is saying is that MOST users are finding the same discrepancies. This really needs to be better explained. I would also like to know why this is occurring.

Here are my variances on contrast (I don't own the WOW disc, merely going on what other LH90 users are reporting in the thread for my TV).

1. Built-in TV contrast pattern = 87
On medium gamma, gamma setting effects the pattern's optimal setting where the two white blocks match in intensity. MOST HD cable TV content looks quite natural on this setting and seems to be the setting my brain 'accepts' as the best compromise between TV programming with differences in contrast from the source material.

2. DVE = 97
This is probably the only pattern I would have trusted with the reverse top/bottom left to right contrast scale and I get the '97' setting on medium gamma. The 2nd to last white block is adjust to 'just' match the "whiter than white" block. The result gives me a picture quality with some nice 'pop' but sometimes I get the impression the contrast is too high or something is 'wrong' on some commercials.

However, when I set the backlight at this contrast setting when comparing a movie or show shot 'outdoors' when looking out of my window and then matching up the intensity of 'real outdoors' with my TV's reproduction of a similar daytime intensity, well, the '97' contrast appears to be the most 'real' setting ironically, even though some HD cable TV content just looks like the high intensity whites are just a bit smooshed together/clipped.

That's Ironic since the DVE contrast pattern CLEARLY shows what should be the top white output on their test pattern and I'm able to see each level of difference on the larger main blocks in the high intensity white spectrum of the test pattern.

However, when looking at the more detailed gradient line, it's very difficult to see the contrasting transition between whites in the brightest output portion of the test pattern.

So, these results have me questioning whether the test pattern's larger blocks are truly a good indicator for the proper upper dynamic range of a display and has me questioning whether it's taking into account the TV's true capability to display differences between those whites. It maybe forcing users to set their contrast too high. It's undeniable however how incredibly close to 'real life' this contrast pattern has brought my TV on the right content (good quality outdoor HD films/TV programs).

Perhaps the pattern is perfect but my TV is just 'barely' able to show a minor difference at the top output of the pattern but overall, my TV may not have as detailed an output at the top of the spectrum to give realistic detail gradient differences?

I have put pictures in the thread for my TV on page 88 of the thread (on my computer it's page 88, but may or may not be the page on yours) which I think shows a very close representation of how my TV looks on the DVE settings. The results have undeniable 'pop' but even in the pictures it seems to give the impression the contrast is set a bit higher than the TV's capability to present the differences on the brightest white outputs. Although very correct looking on daylight scenes in light 'intensity', it's just a tad short of what I would consider a 'perfect' representation of the upper white spectrum of whites. I'm STILL impressed this TV could even come close to producing what I see in 'real life' as no other TV I've ever owned could pull this off (competing with and showing off a VERY realistic daytime picture).

3. The Monster calibration disc = 94
Right inbetween the TV's built-in pattern and DVE's pattern. The result still seems to clip some of the brightest whites together although not as bad as the DVE pattern on clipped whites but it's also not matching 'true life' outdoor realism like the DVE disc's settings.

4. WOW disc. I myself don't own this, but from the settings other people have reported, it's very likely the WOW disc's contrast pattern would indicate a "low 80's" setting. I don't want to shell out $30 to $40 just to confirm this as I'm confident those reports from other user's with my LH90 model are doing things similarly to what I would do as their results from DVE & the TV patterns are similar to my settings.

So, I would like to communicate again to those people who prepare and setup these calibration patterns to please get together and try to offer some consistency on what is 'correct'.
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post #210 of 450 Old 06-28-2011, 11:43 AM
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Hi,

This could be very simple.

Built in Pattern should match a pattern from a test generator fed directly to your HDTV.

External Pattern off a disc must go through a Calibrated Chain...meaning your BD Player may need to be calibrated and your AVR may also affect the output of the pattern to the HDTV Panel.

You cannot be 100% "correct" until you check to see if your AVR is affecting levels as well.

RIch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post
Here are my variances on contrast (I don't own the WOW disc, merely going on what other LH90 users are reporting in the thread for my TV).

1. Built-in TV contrast pattern = 87
On medium gamma, gamma setting effects the pattern's optimal setting where the two white blocks match in intensity. MOST HD cable TV content looks quite natural on this setting and seems to be the setting my brain 'accepts' as the best compromise between TV programming with differences in contrast from the source material.

2. DVE = 97
This is probably the only pattern I would have trusted with the reverse top/bottom left to right contrast scale and I get the '97' setting on medium gamma. The 2nd to last white block is adjust to 'just' match the "whiter than white" block. The result gives me a picture quality with some nice 'pop' but sometimes I get the impression the contrast is too high or something is 'wrong' on some commercials.

However, when I set the backlight at this contrast setting when comparing a movie or show shot 'outdoors' when looking out of my window and then matching up the intensity of 'real outdoors' with my TV's reproduction of a similar daytime intensity, well, the '97' contrast appears to be the most 'real' setting ironically, even though some HD cable TV content just looks like the high intensity whites are just a bit smooshed together/clipped.

That's Ironic since the DVE contrast pattern CLEARLY shows what should be the top white output on their test pattern and I'm able to see each level of difference on the larger main blocks in the high intensity white spectrum of the test pattern.

However, when looking at the more detailed gradient line, it's very difficult to see the contrasting transition between whites in the brightest output portion of the test pattern.

So, these results have me questioning whether the test pattern's larger blocks are truly a good indicator for the proper upper dynamic range of a display and has me questioning whether it's taking into account the TV's true capability to display differences between those whites. It maybe forcing users to set their contrast too high. It's undeniable however how incredibly close to 'real life' this contrast pattern has brought my TV on the right content (good quality outdoor HD films/TV programs).

Perhaps the pattern is perfect but my TV is just 'barely' able to show a minor difference at the top output of the pattern but overall, my TV may not have as detailed an output at the top of the spectrum to give realistic detail gradient differences?

I have put pictures in the thread for my TV on page 88 of the thread (on my computer it's page 88, but may or may not be the page on yours) which I think shows a very close representation of how my TV looks on the DVE settings. The results have undeniable 'pop' but even in the pictures it seems to give the impression the contrast is set a bit higher than the TV's capability to present the differences on the brightest white outputs. Although very correct looking on daylight scenes in light 'intensity', it's just a tad short of what I would consider a 'perfect' representation of the upper white spectrum of whites. I'm STILL impressed this TV could even come close to producing what I see in 'real life' as no other TV I've ever owned could pull this off (competing with and showing off a VERY realistic daytime picture).

3. The Monster calibration disc = 94
Right inbetween the TV's built-in pattern and DVE's pattern. The result still seems to clip some of the brightest whites together although not as bad as the DVE pattern on clipped whites but it's also not matching 'true life' outdoor realism like the DVE disc's settings.

4. WOW disc. I myself don't own this, but from the settings other people have reported, it's very likely the WOW disc's contrast pattern would indicate a "low 80's" setting. I don't want to shell out $30 to $40 just to confirm this as I'm confident those reports from other user's with my LH90 model are doing things similarly to what I would do as their results from DVE & the TV patterns are similar to my settings.

So, I would like to communicate again to those people who prepare and setup these calibration patterns to please get together and try to offer some consistency on what is 'correct'.

Richard J. Casey



Disney WOW - World of Wonder


Producers Guild of America, New Media Council
(BD Industry Insider)
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