3D LUT Calibration - Page 5 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 148 Old 02-19-2013, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Hi Steve,

In what way would the extra accuracy you refer to be of visual value?

Is it just of academic interest or could our far from perfect human eyes detect the difference?

Fist it depends on your HTPC use case. You would have to be running an application on the PC that can avail itself of madVR. Right now that is limited to MP-HC and JRiver MC for the most part. Now JRiver attempts to be an all emcompassing MediaCenter solution and it matches MP-HC for video playback. Sadly its PVR and EPG presentation are far inferior to WMC nor does it currently support Cable Tuners. I own JR MC18 but mostly watch it and wait. If the EPG/PVR evolves to WMC levels and it get reasonable support for the Ceton tuner. I can standardize on it. It is really then when madVR and a first quality 3D LUT puts us in a new ballpark. All the pieces come into place to have accurately calibrated displays at the highest level wherever an HTPC is attached. The idea of a single integrated source solution comes to the table.

This largely gets away for the need for external boxes like the Radiance.. One source, to render all content at the highest level while also correcting display deficiencies acheiving reference or near reference quality display output using a single consistent interface.Of course JR will have to stop adding 10k features a week and start focusing on bug killing. Sadly, they are more focused on porting their app to the Mac then building a robust EPG/PVR enviroment. They do have file playback largely perfected thanks to madVR and LAV.

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post #122 of 148 Old 02-19-2013, 10:02 AM
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Very interesting Gary,

I have JRiver but only use it on my laptop.

Certainly an HTPC setup, if it eliminates the need for a Radiance or for that matter an eeColorbox would be a significant step forward (or threat depending on your point of view).

As you know I have a DUO as VP so cannot access 3D LUT but luckily have a Display that is linear. However if I change my display this linearity may not be repeatable.

Thanks for the detail.
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post #123 of 148 Old 02-19-2013, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Very interesting Gary,

I have JRiver but only use it on my laptop..

It's not so much JRiver, but the MadVR renderer which you can plug into any app that supports user configurable rendering output. MPC-HC for instance supports it as well.

Still a pretty cool piece of tech.

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post #124 of 148 Old 02-19-2013, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I actually think the idea of a GPU based 3D Cube calibration system is of real interest.
We already use this approach with a lot of the top DI systems out there, so it s a proven workflow.

It's making it universal, as with a VCGTs, that is key.

And I appreciate the images being removed - they were taken totally out of context and re-used in a way not associated with the original web page.
Content being used and credited is fine.

Steve

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post #125 of 148 Old 02-19-2013, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

I actually think the idea of a GPU based 3D Cube calibration system is of real interest.
We already use this approach with a lot of the top DI systems out there, so it s a proven workflow.

It's making it universal, as with a VCGTs, that is key.

And I appreciate the images being removed - they were taken totally out of context and re-used in a way not associated with the original web page.
Content being used and credited if fine.

Steve
Ah, but it needs to priced completely different than other solutions. Volumes could be tens or even hundreds of thousands of units per year. $2500 solutions are not the answer. I am sure you are not interested in cannabilizing your high end professional botique market business where price is to some degree no object for a mass consumer product. That would take real vision and courage.. entrenched players are not usually the kind of companies that do this. Not to say your $600 eecolor box doesn't point toward that thinking but it is rare.

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post #126 of 148 Old 02-19-2013, 12:13 PM
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So how about it SpectraCal and Light Illusion? Any plans to implement a feature to generate MadVR compatible 3DLUTs from your software? wink.gifbiggrin.gif

My ArgyllCMS/MadVR 3DLUT Creation Workflow
My Sharp Elite Movie THX AV Mode Settings
--Aug 2011 Set, 2.2 gamma [ link ]
--Nov 2012 Set, 2.2 gamma [ link ]
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post #127 of 148 Old 02-19-2013, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N3W813 View Post

So how about it SpectraCal and Light Illusion? Any plans to implement a feature to generate MadVR compatible 3DLUTs from your software? wink.gifbiggrin.gif

We are always evaluating the needs of the market.

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post #128 of 148 Old 02-19-2013, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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If someone sends the format that's needed we will happily add it - no problem.

I have mailed Madshi directly as well...

With LightSpace CMS we aim to be totally LUT agnostic.

Steve

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post #129 of 148 Old 02-19-2013, 01:31 PM
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I recently purchased a Hisense Pulse (2nd gen Google TV box).
At the software level, its completely crippled and useless for this purpose, but as a piece of hardware it is all one would ever need. HDMI in and out, ethernet/USB, IR blaster for $99.
Its unclear if a replacement Google TV OS would give enthusiasts greater control of the incoming video stream (I doubt it as it probably involves decrypting HDCP), but the OEMs who build these boxes (and they are all built on Marvell Armada 1500 SoCs) would no doubt have the means to add CMS functionality to the platform and still stay on the right side of the DMCA.

The dev hardware and SDK looks even better.
http://www.marvell.com/digital-entertainment/armada-1500/software-standards/

I'd happily contribute funds to any capable dev who could make something of this.
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post #130 of 148 Old 02-19-2013, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

It's not so much JRiver, but the MadVR renderer which you can plug into any app that supports user configurable rendering output. MPC-HC for instance supports it as well.

Still a pretty cool piece of tech.

Hi Joel,

Thanks for info, I'm afraid I know little about most things but am interested in most.

Certainly this does seem to offer a different way to consider calibration.
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post #131 of 148 Old 02-19-2013, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N3W813 View Post

So how about it SpectraCal and Light Illusion? Any plans to implement a feature to generate MadVR compatible 3DLUTs from your software? wink.gifbiggrin.gif

You can do this now with free software from http://dispcalgui.hoech.net/. This is a front-end to the ArgyllCMS tools which support popular enthusiast probes. I have not seen any proper evaluation of these LUTs+MadVR in action as of yet.
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post #132 of 148 Old 02-19-2013, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

You can do this now with free software from http://dispcalgui.hoech.net/. This is a front-end to the ArgyllCMS tools which support popular enthusiast probes. I have not seen any proper evaluation of these LUTs+MadVR in action as of yet.

ArgyllCMS + dispcalGUI = steep learning curve :P

Also, MadVR's current implementation of yCMS does not correct points within the color gamut, only the 100% saturation targets. It works well with displays that are fairly linear. My display is NO WHERE close to being linear. rolleyes.gif Hopefully, the author of yCMS will add the functionality to correct points within the gamut in version 2 of his product and will be integrated into MadVR. biggrin.gif

If Calman can add support for MadVR as a pattern source, then it will be a cinch to calibrate HTPC sources. smile.gif

My ArgyllCMS/MadVR 3DLUT Creation Workflow
My Sharp Elite Movie THX AV Mode Settings
--Aug 2011 Set, 2.2 gamma [ link ]
--Nov 2012 Set, 2.2 gamma [ link ]
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post #133 of 148 Old 02-19-2013, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N3W813 View Post

ArgyllCMS + dispcalGUI = steep learning curve :P

Also, MadVR's current implementation of yCMS does not correct points within the color gamut, only the 100% saturation targets. It works well with displays that are fairly linear. My display is NO WHERE close to being linear. rolleyes.gif Hopefully, the author of yCMS will add the functionality to correct points within the gamut in version 2 of his product and will be integrated into MadVR. biggrin.gif

If Calman can add support for MadVR as a pattern source, then it will be a cinch to calibrate HTPC sources. smile.gif

I have posted instructions here: How to get perfect color

This method certainly does correct points within the color gamut. Look at the results posted. I did not post the charts but I did test with ChromaPure using both Saturation and Amplitude test patterns and both were corrected throughout the color gamut. I usually do not correct black point or white point to keep maximum dynamic range. I'm not too sensitive to the color of 0% Black or 100% White.
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post #134 of 148 Old 02-19-2013, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

They do have file playback largely perfected thanks to madVR and LAV.

Yes, JRiver is the best HTPC solution I have found to playback HD video with lossless multi-channel audio. Their 64 bit audio with optional convolution supports all forms of digital audio processing for room correction, digital cross-overs, etc.

3D LUTs in madVR make the video equally impressive.
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post #135 of 148 Old 02-19-2013, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by hulkss View Post

I have posted instructions here: How to get perfect color

This method certainly does correct points within the color gamut.

yes, the dispcalGUI LUTs do remap inside the gamut.
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post #136 of 148 Old 02-21-2013, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

yes, the dispcalGUI LUTs do remap inside the gamut.

Interesting....I will try this on my Sharp Elite display which has horrible color tracking for most of its primaries and secondaries.

How many point corrections can DispcalGUI provide? More than the 125 offered by the Radiance sets?

My ArgyllCMS/MadVR 3DLUT Creation Workflow
My Sharp Elite Movie THX AV Mode Settings
--Aug 2011 Set, 2.2 gamma [ link ]
--Nov 2012 Set, 2.2 gamma [ link ]
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post #137 of 148 Old 02-22-2013, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

yes, the dispcalGUI LUTs do remap inside the gamut.
Interesting. My TV controls allow me to get perfect calibration of color at 100% luminance, but it is impossible to get all saturations correct across both 75% luminance and 100% luminance. If I'm understanding correctly, I can use dispcalgui and create a 3DLUT to apply to my display calibrated for perfect 100% luminance across all saturations and the result will be perfect color tracking across all saturations and luminance?

Has anyone here done this with xbmc+madVR? Worth the pain?
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post #138 of 148 Old 02-22-2013, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N3W813 View Post

Interesting....I will try this on my Sharp Elite display which has horrible color tracking for most of its primaries and secondaries.

How many point corrections can DispcalGUI provide? More than the 125 offered by the Radiance sets?

You can define any number of LUT points you want in dispcalGUI, the current set of predefined charts include 124 points up to 2386 points.
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post #139 of 148 Old 02-22-2013, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hulkss View Post

I have posted instructions here: How to get perfect color

This method certainly does correct points within the color gamut. Look at the results posted. I did not post the charts but I did test with ChromaPure using both Saturation and Amplitude test patterns and both were corrected throughout the color gamut. I usually do not correct black point or white point to keep maximum dynamic range. I'm not too sensitive to the color of 0% Black or 100% White.
This is pretty interesting, I tried it out tonight but it looks like dispcalGUI doesn't support doing a calibrate+profile at BT1886 gamma?

Another thing I noticed is that the final result played through madVR seemed to get blue somewhat wrong as "4-Color Clipping" from the avs709 disc showed flashing blue boxes up through 248 or so instead of clipping after 235 like it should. Anyway I'm sure there was some user error along the way as well. Thanks for the guide.
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post #140 of 148 Old 02-24-2013, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hulkss View Post

Up-To-Date 3D LUT instructions for HTPC users here: How To Get Perfect Video Color

Hi hulkss, I've tried your guide and I've had some problem in the step:
"Click on the Calibrate & Profile button"

When doing it, a series of full field patches in "over the top" mode starts and the rest of windows become disabled, specially the window in background waiting for "next, next,...".
As I have my system previously calibrated with colorhfcr and AVSHD709, can I create only the profile with the "only Profile" button?

If not, what is going wrong with "Calibrate & Profile button"?
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post #141 of 148 Old 03-06-2013, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hulkss View Post

I have posted instructions here: How to get perfect color

This method certainly does correct points within the color gamut. Look at the results posted. I did not post the charts but I did test with ChromaPure using both Saturation and Amplitude test patterns and both were corrected throughout the color gamut. I usually do not correct black point or white point to keep maximum dynamic range. I'm not too sensitive to the color of 0% Black or 100% White.

hulkss,
Can you please post a chart of DeltaL or DeltaE 2000 for your 3dlut corrected gamut saturations? I used your guide and ran calibrations using dispcal and created the 3dluts. When I used them in madvr, although it did lower DeltaH and DeltaC significantly, it produces saturation points that have very large luminance errors. The DeltaE 2000s for my 25% saturation sweep ranges from 5 to 30. frown.gif

My ArgyllCMS/MadVR 3DLUT Creation Workflow
My Sharp Elite Movie THX AV Mode Settings
--Aug 2011 Set, 2.2 gamma [ link ]
--Nov 2012 Set, 2.2 gamma [ link ]
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post #142 of 148 Old 03-06-2013, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N3W813 View Post

hulkss,
Can you please post a chart of DeltaL or DeltaE 2000 for your 3dlut corrected gamut saturations? I used your guide and ran calibrations using dispcal and created the 3dluts. When I used them in madvr, although it did lower DeltaH and DeltaC significantly, it produces saturation points that have very large luminance errors. The DeltaE 2000s for my 25% saturation sweep ranges from 5 to 30. frown.gif

I had this same problem, xy positions were corrected very well (except for the blue channel for some reason) but luminances were far too low. I believe this was because the target gamut is at gamma 2.4 and the patterns used for the saturation sweeps (at least for HCFR) are hardcoded for 2.2 gamma displays. It would be better to be able to do the 3dLUTs for any gamma desired.
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post #143 of 148 Old 01-16-2014, 01:46 PM
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So.....what ever came of all of this nearly 3 years later? Did lightspace come out with their LUT box? Are 3DLUT's now ubiquitous? If something does exist, are we still talking in the $1000+ range or do we have something for non-HTPC users in the $500 range?
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post #144 of 148 Old 01-16-2014, 05:43 PM
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So.....what ever came of all of this nearly 3 years later? Did lightspace come out with their LUT box? Are 3DLUT's now ubiquitous? If something does exist, are we still talking in the $1000+ range or do we have something for non-HTPC users in the $500 range?

We are mainly using eeColor 3D LUT Box (personally from 2012 with LightSpace CMS) in HT enviroment, it's cost is around 700$ including shipping. If you need more details follow my signature link.

You can use eeColor 3D LUT Box to perform Large 3D Cube Calibrations with LightSpace Full CMS/Quick Profile/HCC/HCL or CalMAN 5 Enthusiast/Expert/Professional/Studio/Ultimate.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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So I was just reading the last few replies about high delta Es for luminance... So, does that mean that ArgyllCMS 3DLUTs for madVR only make hue and saturations accurate, but leave luminance with very high dEs??? HCFR reports near-perfect luminance for every color...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
Jim, 3D is important to me. What happens if I use the bypass button on the eeColor box remote? Will I lose all gamut corrections?
Hi, I'm moving your questions about eeColor from my Colorimetry Research Meters thread here.

eeColor will not pass 3D (packed frames) signal, this means that you can't watch any 3D Movie from a Blu-Ray Player if you have connected eeColor to your video chain. It will display a black screen/no signal to your TV.

eeColor has no plans to update the firmware to support 3D (frame packed signal) pass throu singal. It's hardware decision.

Solutions for this:

i) If you have an AVR with 2 HDMI Outputs, you can connect No.1 HDMI Out to eeColor for 2D Movies and No.2 HDMI Out to Lumagen for the 3D Movies.

ii) If you have a Blu-Ray Player with 2 HDMI Outputs, you can do similar setup connections like i), for the Main and Sub HDMI Out.

iii) If you have a Blu-Ray Player with 1 only HDMI Output, you can connect an HDMI Splitter, where the one output will go to your Blu-Ray -> eeColor -> Display and and the other to Blu-Ray -> Lumagen -> Display.

iv If you don't want to spend any extra money, connect Blu-Ray -> Lumagen -> eeColor -> Display and simply remove from the signal chain the eeColor when you want to see a 3D Movie.

3D Content + Accurate Calibration is something can never happen for many reasons. Each glasses measures differently if you measure the left glass len or the right, also if you measure 3 different pair of glasses you will get different readings too....

Just for your info, there is not available any external LUT Horder Device larger 3D LUT Size from 17-Point Cube that can be used in HT Enviroment (feature HDMI In-Out) with 3D Frame Packed Signal Support. In PRO world Pandora Pluto (5000$) supports 3D Frame Packed but don't have HDMI (In-Out) Connections that can be used for HT because HD-SDI to HDMI Signal Convertors will not work because of the HDCP.

You can use the Lumagen with 5-Point Cube for 3D Movies. 3D Movies are just fun and to impress only, don't expect very accurate colors.

BTW if you keep the Lumagen to your video chain, you can connect the HDMI Splitter to your Lumagen HDMI Output and from there connect Lumagen -> eeColor -> Display and Lumagen -> Display; when you want to calibrate/watch 2D movies, disable any 1D/3D LUT table correction from Lumagen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
BTW, I'm assuming the Lumagen VP handles white balance while the ee handles gamut. Am I completely off here?
If you have eeColor, you will not need to use it's Lumagen 21-Point Grayscale 1D LUT table because eeColor's 65-Point sized 3D LUT table is including 65-Point Grayscale.

If you still need to have the Lumagen to your video chain, use UNITY from your Lumagen; no correction tables applyed... 1:1 input-output.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5

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post #147 of 148 Unread Today, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, I'm moving your questions about eeColor from my Colorimetry Research Meters thread here.

eeColor will not pass 3D (packed frames) signal, this means that you can't watch any 3D Movie from a Blu-Ray Player if you have connected eeColor to your video chain. It will display a black screen/no signal to your TV.

eeColor has no plans to update the firmware to support 3D (frame packed signal) pass throu singal. It's hardware decision.

Solutions for this:

i) If you have an AVR with 2 HDMI Outputs, you can connect No.1 HDMI Out to eeColor for 2D Movies and No.2 HDMI Out to Lumagen for the 3D Movies.

ii) If you have a Blu-Ray Player with 2 HDMI Outputs, you can do similar setup connections like i), for the Main and Sub HDMI Out.

iii) If you have a Blu-Ray Player with 1 only HDMI Output, you can connect an HDMI Splitter, where the one output will go to your Blu-Ray -> eeColor -> Display and and the other to Blu-Ray -> Lumagen -> Display.

iv If you don't want to spend any extra money, connect Blu-Ray -> Lumagen -> eeColor -> Display and simply remove from the signal chain the eeColor when you want to see a 3D Movie.

3D Content + Accurate Calibration is something can never happen for many reasons. Each glasses measures differently if you measure the left glass len or the right, also if you measure 3 different pair of glasses you will get different readings too....

Just for your info, there is not available any external LUT Horder Device larger 3D LUT Size from 17-Point Cube that can be used in HT Enviroment (feature HDMI In-Out) with 3D Frame Packed Signal Support. In PRO world Pandora Pluto (5000$) supports 3D Frame Packed but don't have HDMI (In-Out) Connections that can be used for HT because HD-SDI to HDMI Signal Convertors will not work because of the HDCP.

You can use the Lumagen with 5-Point Cube for 3D Movies. 3D Movies are just fun and to impress only, don't expect very accurate colors.

BTW if you keep the Lumagen to your video chain, you can connect the HDMI Splitter to your Lumagen HDMI Output and from there connect Lumagen -> eeColor -> Display and Lumagen -> Display; when you want to calibrate/watch 2D movies, disable any 1D/3D LUT table correction from Lumagen.



If you have eeColor, you will not need to use it's Lumagen 21-Point Grayscale 1D LUT table because eeColor's 65-Point sized 3D LUT table is including 65-Point Grayscale.

If you still need to have the Lumagen to your video chain, use UNITY from your Lumagen; no correction tables applyed... 1:1 input-output.
Just to add to what Ted said. ...Any of the 21xx Radiance units support 17x17x17 LUTs for 3D...but i agree, 3D is so random....but you can make it signficantly better as virtually every display i've come across is non linear in it's greyscale response with strange gamma for 3D...and fixing both of those is a definite benefit.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, I'm moving your questions about eeColor from my Colorimetry Research Meters thread here.

eeColor will not pass 3D (packed frames) signal, this means that you can't watch any 3D Movie from a Blu-Ray Player if you have connected eeColor to your video chain. It will display a black screen/no signal to your TV.

eeColor has no plans to update the firmware to support 3D (frame packed signal) pass throu singal. It's hardware decision.

Solutions for this:

i) If you have an AVR with 2 HDMI Outputs, you can connect No.1 HDMI Out to eeColor for 2D Movies and No.2 HDMI Out to Lumagen for the 3D Movies.

ii) If you have a Blu-Ray Player with 2 HDMI Outputs, you can do similar setup connections like i), for the Main and Sub HDMI Out.

iii) If you have a Blu-Ray Player with 1 only HDMI Output, you can connect an HDMI Splitter, where the one output will go to your Blu-Ray -> eeColor -> Display and and the other to Blu-Ray -> Lumagen -> Display.

iv If you don't want to spend any extra money, connect Blu-Ray -> Lumagen -> eeColor -> Display and simply remove from the signal chain the eeColor when you want to see a 3D Movie.

3D Content + Accurate Calibration is something can never happen for many reasons. Each glasses measures differently if you measure the left glass len or the right, also if you measure 3 different pair of glasses you will get different readings too....

Just for your info, there is not available any external LUT Horder Device larger 3D LUT Size from 17-Point Cube that can be used in HT Enviroment (feature HDMI In-Out) with 3D Frame Packed Signal Support. In PRO world Pandora Pluto (5000$) supports 3D Frame Packed but don't have HDMI (In-Out) Connections that can be used for HT because HD-SDI to HDMI Signal Convertors will not work because of the HDCP.

You can use the Lumagen with 5-Point Cube for 3D Movies. 3D Movies are just fun and to impress only, don't expect very accurate colors.

BTW if you keep the Lumagen to your video chain, you can connect the HDMI Splitter to your Lumagen HDMI Output and from there connect Lumagen -> eeColor -> Display and Lumagen -> Display; when you want to calibrate/watch 2D movies, disable any 1D/3D LUT table correction from Lumagen.



If you have eeColor, you will not need to use it's Lumagen 21-Point Grayscale 1D LUT table because eeColor's 65-Point sized 3D LUT table is including 65-Point Grayscale.

If you still need to have the Lumagen to your video chain, use UNITY from your Lumagen; no correction tables applyed... 1:1 input-output.

Ted, thank you for answering my questions and more. You really put everything in a nutshell here and saved me days of research. My Oppo has two HDMI outputs so option number two definitely works for me. If fact, it's perfect because I only use the player's analog outputs; all video goes direct to the display.


Regarding the 65-point Grayscale, that's just want I needed to know, too. I can relax now that I have better understanding of each box (Lumagen and eeColor) and how I can fit it all in.


Thanks again.
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