Color Temp is the same as white balance? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 06-09-2011, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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When i use a grey scale pattern and i want to get a neutral color in all of the bars.

What i´m calibrating? White balance or color temp?

Or these are the same?
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post #2 of 20 Old 06-09-2011, 07:11 AM
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Greetings

both the same ... and it depends

Some tvs call the preset WB part color temp ... so you cannot change things there.

A place called WB usually has the controls you can change .. maybe ...

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post #3 of 20 Old 06-09-2011, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks.
My tv has color temp
1.cool
2.medium
3.warm
4.user

medium is too blue and warm is to green

On user i have Red, green and Blue. This is where i´m trying to get a even neutral grey scale.

Still i don´t think i´ll be able to achieve that with those controls alone.

Why?

Because when i get the dark grey scale properly, Lighter whites looks blueish or reddish.
And if i get the lighter whites perfect, the darker grey scale looks greenish.

I have to chose to get one part of the grey scale correct. which one i should chose?

To get perfect whites with greenish dark? or get perfect grey dark with reddish/blueish white?

make sense?
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post #4 of 20 Old 06-09-2011, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post
Thanks.
My tv has color temp
1.cool
2.medium
3.warm
4.user

medium is too blue and warm is to green

On user i have Red, green and Blue. This is where i´m trying to get a even neutral grey scale.

Still i don´t think i´ll be able to achieve that with those controls alone.

Why?

Because when i get the dark grey scale properly, Lighter whites looks blueish or reddish.
And if i get the lighter whites perfect, the darker grey scale looks greenish.

I have to chose to get one part of the grey scale correct. which one i should chose?

To get perfect whites with greenish dark? or get perfect grey dark with reddish/blueish white?

make sense?
You didn't mention the brand and model of your TV.

A proper set of color temp controls consists of:
- a brightness/offset setting for each of the R, G, B (to adjust grayscale of the lower end, or the dark region); and
- a contrast/gain setting for each of the R, G, B (to adjust grayscale of the higher end, or the bright region).

So totally 6 controls. If your TV has only the R, G, B controls in the "user" mode, you might not be able to calibrate the grayscale properly. Whether to sacrifice the low end or the high end, it boils down to your personal preference. In general, human eyes is more forgive to the bluish bright white (in most cases of the real content your eyes are being fooled to perceive the bluish white is just a brighter white). So you may choose to give priority to the middle end (40% - 70%, which is the most important region), and secondly the low end, and finally the high end.
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post #5 of 20 Old 06-09-2011, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominickwok View Post
You didn't mention the brand and model of your TV.

A proper set of color temp controls consists of:
- a brightness/offset setting for each of the R, G, B (to adjust grayscale of the lower end, or the dark region); and
- a contrast/gain setting for each of the R, G, B (to adjust grayscale of the higher end, or the bright region).

So totally 6 controls. If your TV has only the R, G, B controls in the "user" mode, you might not be able to calibrate the grayscale properly. Whether to sacrifice the low end or the high end, it boils down to your personal preference. In general, human eyes is more forgive to the bluish bright white (in most cases of the real content your eyes are being fooled to perceive the bluish white is just a brighter white). So you may choose to give priority to the middle end (40% - 70%, which is the most important region), and secondly the low end, and finally the high end.
Hi
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate.

my tv is an old set 2008, LG Plasma PG60, 42".

It is not the US models so i don´t have the same controls as the US version of the tv.
Maybe this controls are hidden in the Service menu, but i can´t access to that.

As a end user i only have those options.

R,G and B that´s it.

That is what i did, found a happy medium between the Darker grey and the lighter greys. trying to get the middle grey scale best leaving the darker and lighter end incorrect.

I can tell the whites are kinda a blue, but i still prefer that than having the dark end greener as you mentioned on your post. i guess i´m more forgiving with the blueish white rather the darker greens.
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post #6 of 20 Old 06-09-2011, 08:44 AM
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Greetings

Start with a pattern in the middle range ... with the priority on making people/flesh tones look proper. 40-60-70 range.

if the blacks and dark grays get too green or red ... then you really have to sacrifice to make the dark end look more bearable.

regards

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post #7 of 20 Old 06-12-2011, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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i gave up.
I think i`m going to just leave Default warm setting.

One day i think it`s perfect (acceptable level for an eye comparison calibration)
The next day i look at the same grey scale and i don`t see as accurate as the day before. I think my eyes are playing tricks to my brain

At the end i end up worrying more in the color temp and colors accuracy rather than enjoy the movie/game i`m watching.
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post #8 of 20 Old 06-12-2011, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

i gave up.
I think i`m going to just leave Default warm setting.

One day i think it`s perfect (acceptable level for an eye comparison calibration)
The next day i look at the same grey scale and i don`t see as accurate as the day before. I think my eyes are playing tricks to my brain

At the end i end up worrying more in the color temp and colors accuracy rather than enjoy the movie/game i`m watching.

there is a very good reason why meters are used to do grayscale
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post #9 of 20 Old 06-12-2011, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
there is a very good reason why meters are used to do gray scale
yeah. I don`t mind to use warm setting in the TV but is so much warmer compared to my Monitor 6500º screen that bothers me. Specially because i do stream videos from my PC to the TV and not seeing the same picture on both bothers me.

I`m giving an optical calibration a chance, because even like this is more accurate representation of my monitor "6500kº" screen than the default warm setting.
Still not happy.

Skin tones looks artificial, pinky look in them, i think they are still having too blue and they are missing a bit of green.
But if i do tweak that, the lower grey scale will go to the greener side.
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post #10 of 20 Old 06-12-2011, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post
yeah. I don`t mind to use warm setting in the TV but is so much warmer compared to my Monitor 6500º screen that bothers me. Specially because i do stream videos from my PC to the TV and not seeing the same picture on both bothers me.

I`m giving an optical calibration a chance, because even like this is more accurate representation of my monitor "6500kº" screen than the default warm setting.
Still not happy.

Skin tones looks artificial, pinky look in them, i think they are still having too blue and they are missing a bit of green.
But if i do tweak that, the lower grey scale will go to the greener side.
Your eye is so easily fooled about what shade constitutes white, it's the reason why there are absolutely no good ways to do white point with out hardware.

Weather that hardware is an optical comparator or a meter, you need something that is a reference. Inexpensive meters are now much cheaper than decent optical compartors.

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post #11 of 20 Old 06-12-2011, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post
Your eye is so easily fooled about what shade constitutes white, it's the reason why there are absolutely no good ways to do white point with out hardware.

Weather that hardware is an optical comparator or a meter, you need something that is a reference. Inexpensive meters are now much cheaper than decent optical compartors.
i know, this goes against everything that is write in any AVS forum.
I also know that what i`m doing can`t be called calibration either.

What i do know is that i can`t afford any equipment for this at this given time, specially because in my country everything related to AVS has to be imported. So my eyes and a comparison neutral gray scale pattern i have from before are my only tool to get a accurate representation of the board.
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post #12 of 20 Old 06-13-2011, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

i know, this goes against everything that is write in any AVS forum.
I also know that what i`m doing can`t be called calibration either.

What i do know is that i can`t afford any equipment for this at this given time, specially because in my country everything related to AVS has to be imported. So my eyes and a comparison neutral gray scale pattern i have from before are my only tool to get a accurate representation of the board.

you could get something like this

http://www.amazon.com/Pantone-MEU116.../dp/B001E2J464

basically a very cheap version the of the i1 Display colorimeter
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post #13 of 20 Old 06-13-2011, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I don´t what the point to get the colorimeter if my TV user menu doesn´t let me to properly calibrate the white balance. This is another thing that is turning me off on spending for a colorimeter or any other calibration hardware.
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post #14 of 20 Old 06-13-2011, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

I don´t what the point to get the colorimeter if my TV user menu doesn´t let me to properly calibrate the white balance. This is another thing that is turning me off on spending for a colorimeter or any other calibration hardware.

There are several steps to getting a correctly calibrated image.

Is the color control too high?
That could make faces to pink.

Is the hue control set correctly?
That would especially effect shadow areas, possibly making them too green.

A colorimeter can do a much better job than a blue filter setting those settings.

I'm not saying that your TV can be calibrated to perfection, but you will at least be able to know you've calibrated it to the best of it's ability. Right now you're just throwing darts at the wall.

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post #15 of 20 Old 06-13-2011, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

I don´t what the point to get the colorimeter if my TV user menu doesn´t let me to properly calibrate the white balance. This is another thing that is turning me off on spending for a colorimeter or any other calibration hardware.

Even with 1pt grayscale controls you could still see a major improvement in grayscale tracking. On my 2008 Panasonic PZ80U Plasma, I have 2pt grayscale but only end up using the high end controls since the low end ones are unnecessary. You always try it out and if not satisfied amazon has an excellent return/refund policy if you buy it directly from them and not a third party seller. Setting color/tint properly with a meter can also make a huge difference.
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post #16 of 20 Old 06-13-2011, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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How does 1pt grey scale controls works?

I mean if the wither are too blue but the darker are too green?

Also I´m seeing RGB and Color temperature metrics, they arent suppouse to be the same? or you can get a 6500k° calibration with a wrong RGB tracking? Confuse
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post #17 of 20 Old 06-13-2011, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

How does 1pt grey scale controls works?

I mean if the wither are too blue but the darker are too green?

Also I´m seeing RGB and Color temperature metrics, they arent suppouse to be the same? or you can get a 6500k° calibration with a wrong RGB tracking? Confuse

Color temperature only refers to the balance between red and blue, green is not considered at all. This means you can have 6500K with a grayscale that is either too green or green deficient (aka magenta). One point allows you to move the red, green, and blue levels up or down across the entire grayscale by roughly the same amount at each 10% interval or so. If RGB tracking is fairly linear to begin with, you can line up all three at the center mark (100%) across the whole grayscale. If not you can average out the errors, focusing on getting the midrange right first then the low end and the high end last.
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post #18 of 20 Old 06-13-2011, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you. This explains very well.
I wasn´t aware that green wasn´t considered on the color temperature.
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post #19 of 20 Old 06-13-2011, 12:10 PM
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So that black line is the CCT or correlated color temperature line. Color temperature basically is any point perpendicular to that line. So a perpendicular line running through the white box would all be roughly 6500K.

When you calibrate you target specific points. The target color for white is D65, that's the precise location of the box.

With a full calibration you may see that you are clipping one color as well. So you perhaps you are running out of Red so you turn green down to compensate at 100%, well now you are short on green once red starts tracking correctly. Not to mention that your perception of the color is relative to the shade white is, so if white is short on green, then all other shades of green will appear to have more green in them.

All of this is in addition to what I pointed out above, in that once you move away from grayscale the color and tint controls can also have an effect on your perception.
LL

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post #20 of 20 Old 06-14-2011, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I came to conclusions that with the end user menu i´ll only get half good greyscale.
As someone on another thread recommend me i left the whites a bit blueish since they are more forgiving to the eye than darker greenish on the lower scale.

Basically it seems i have a high amount of green on the lower end greyscale and a low amount of green on the higher end. So with a 1 point calibration is impossible to get them right.

THIS ARE EXAMPLE to try to explain what i´m saying, This is NOT my current calibration obviously.
LL
LL
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