X-Rite's Revolutionary New Colorimeter - Page 16 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #451 of 1402 Old 08-20-2011, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

it is not much faster than the old i1 Display 2.

My tests show that it takes about 31 seconds to complete a grayscale run with the D2 and about 13 seconds with the D3, which is about 2.4 times faster. Do you see something different?

Some things to consider:
  • The D2 is a little faster than the Chroma 5, which was my original benchmark for speed comparisons.
  • At least in our software, the D2 is actually a little faster at 30% and below because we intentionally slow the D3 down in that range to improve repeatability. However, above that the D3 is nearly instantaneous, whereas the D2 is quite slow in the 50-70% range.

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post #452 of 1402 Old 08-20-2011, 10:33 AM
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I guess I just don't appreciate or see the need for increased speed. Whether it takes 16 seconds or 31 seconds what difference does that really make. Its not like its two cars drag racing where the only thing is increasing the speed to win the race. now if a meter took long minutes instead of seconds it might to me make a difference. the big difference to me is what it gives you for the money, In some ways a 5 is superior to a 3 and in other ways it isn't but its a lot cheaper and does a great job giving those who aren't really skilled in calibration to get in really cheaply and end up with a nicely calibrated projector and the ability to recalibrate it as the bulb ages. We atre talking couples with Chromapure cionsumer about $560 and with auto caklibration about $700. Compared what Sencor charged for a 5 and a calibration program that left a lot to be desired, a real deal and now affordable for many. What did Sencor charge? Something like $2500?

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post #453 of 1402 Old 08-20-2011, 11:23 AM
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I have an Xrite Display 2 Lt which as far as I know is giving me excellent service (now about 3 years old, probably more).
It is allied to Chromapure Pro and seems to be giving me fantastic results via the CMS on my Duo.
The software works perfectly and the PQ is great on my regular Toshiba 42 inch LCD. The calibration process has completely transformed the 'out of the box' PQ.

I have never had the Display 2 checked for accuracy but am happy that it duplicates readings to my satisfaction.

What advantage(s) can I expect if I purchase a Display3 cf my existing Display 2 ?.
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post #454 of 1402 Old 08-20-2011, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

My tests show that it takes about 31 seconds to complete a grayscale run with the D2 and about 13 seconds with the D3, which is about 2.4 times faster. Do you see something different?

Hi Tom,
Using Calman 4.3 and the default settings, a 10-pt grayscale run takes 41 seconds for the D2, and 36 seconds for the D3. Color gamut takes 27 seconds for the D2, and 24 seconds for the D3. So the D3 is not much faster.

If I set the LLH to 0.5 sec for the D2 (note that the D3 is already at its fastest setting of 1 second by default), then 10-pt grayscale run for the D2 takes 32 seconds (faster than the D3).

I'm not really hung up on speed because most of the time I am using manual control and it's not an issue. Overall, the meter performs well; it's superior to the D2 and on par with the C5 based on the limited data available. I'm just curious about the speed limitation given that X-Rite touts it as a feature, further supported by your evaluations.
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post #455 of 1402 Old 08-20-2011, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slb View Post

Hi Tom,
Using Calman 4.3 and the default settings, a 10-pt grayscale run takes 41 seconds for the D2, and 36 seconds for the D3. Color gamut takes 27 seconds for the D2, and 24 seconds for the D3. So the D3 is not much faster.

If I set the LLH to 0.5 sec for the D2 (note that the D3 is already at its fastest setting of 1 second by default), then 10-pt grayscale run for the D2 takes 32 seconds (faster than the D3).

I'm not really hung up on speed because most of the time I am using manual control and it's not an issue. Overall, the meter performs well; it's superior to the D2 and on par with the C5 based on the limited data available. I'm just curious about the speed limitation given that X-Rite touts it as a feature, further supported by your evaluations.

I agree with your numbers. Maybe the issue is with the CalMAN version of the meter only?

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post #456 of 1402 Old 08-20-2011, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

I believe it would be a great service to all of us (except for perhaps the loser of the comparison) if you were to do that and run a speed/consistency comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I agree with your numbers. Maybe the issue is with the CalMAN version of the meter only?

I'm going to consider it. I won't have time to run any other evaluations for a couple of weeks, so that will give me time to decide whether is worth $200 (to me) to find out if it's the meter or the software.
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post #457 of 1402 Old 08-20-2011, 12:13 PM
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Spectracal mentioned before that they are not altering the meter (ref. post # 239). Assuming that this is true, this leads me to think that the source of the speed difference lies in the software.
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post #458 of 1402 Old 08-20-2011, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slb View Post

Hi Tom,
Using Calman 4.3 and the default settings, a 10-pt grayscale run takes 41 seconds for the D2, and 36 seconds for the D3. Color gamut takes 27 seconds for the D2, and 24 seconds for the D3. So the D3 is not much faster.

If I set the LLH to 0.5 sec for the D2 (note that the D3 is already at its fastest setting of 1 second by default), then 10-pt grayscale run for the D2 takes 32 seconds (faster than the D3).

I'm not really hung up on speed because most of the time I am using manual control and it's not an issue. Overall, the meter performs well; it's superior to the D2 and on par with the C5 based on the limited data available. I'm just curious about the speed limitation given that X-Rite touts it as a feature, further supported by your evaluations.

Tom is talking about the speed performance using ChromaPure Software.

CalMAN performance is another issue.

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post #459 of 1402 Old 08-20-2011, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slb View Post

I'm going to consider it. I won't have time to run any other evaluations for a couple of weeks, so that will give me time to decide whether is worth $200 (to me) to find out if it's the meter or the software.

Great.
BTW would you be able to measure the linearity.
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post #460 of 1402 Old 08-20-2011, 01:34 PM
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If you spend the $200, could you please time the runs in tenths of a second?

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post #461 of 1402 Old 08-20-2011, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

If you spend the $200, could you please time the runs in tenths of a second?

I know many of the contributors in this thread are DIY calibrators, but I will speak for pro calibrators: speed is important!

Good calibrators never rush a job. We spend as long as it takes. And that's why I would have loved a faster meter when I did my 1st VT30 with the 10 point adjustment. I had to do a ton of 10 point runs to get that beast dialed in right and get a handle on it's quirks. Maybe a fast meter would have cut the 15 hours down to something more bearable, like 8-10.

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post #462 of 1402 Old 08-20-2011, 03:00 PM
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I understand (both your example and anybody who cares about the speed for whatever reason).

But didn't it turn out that it's actually better to wait ~20 sec before you start to measure the output of the VT30? (At least with the old firmwares?)
Wouldn't it be easier if your sensor took up_to_30sec before it reported a measurement which was considered as a stable reading (of course, only where it would be appropriate because it had to...)?

I just want to say... speed of course could come in handy in various situations and the advertisements have to be in close relation with the facts, but... nobody should compromise accuracy and precision over speed (unless it's ridiculously slow to work with and/or when compared to other solutions in this price and precision/accuracy range...).


I guess the hardware itself has 5x faster internal sampling rate (I think this is what X-Rite claimed) but the driver and/or the software waits until the readings are fairly stable (it has to wait to get more than one samples to calculate the momentums to judge about stability before it offers a mean or median value for you).

However, the over-saturation with with 4s implies that it's a real hardware integration time and thus it actually takes ~1s to get a sample (and not an average).


So, anyway..., it's fairly fast and fairly accurate while it's fairly cheap. What else could you ask for in this world we live in right now...?


It could also be slower to struggle with fast but fluctuating readings than work with slower but stable readings.
(Set lower, no.. set higher, no.. set it back.. or no, leave it there - until you leave it as is ;;; or set....., set....., set....., perfect!)



Otherwise, I think CalMan wastes some time somewhere (may be it's CPU time to update the GUI ). It feels much faster to take an averaged reading with the low light handler set to 20 samples than the 1/20 time of a single reading.



After all, I say we will know much more (almost every little secreets - if any...) as soon as Greame Gill reverse-engineered the hardware.

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post #463 of 1402 Old 08-20-2011, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Tom is talking about the speed performance using ChromaPure Software.

CalMAN performance is another issue.

I realize Tom's evaluation was done using Chromapure, but my data is relative, so it should be somewhat valid. If Chromapure much faster, then I think Pro cailbrators would consider that to be a significant competitive advantage.
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post #464 of 1402 Old 08-20-2011, 05:31 PM
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I have got the bit about pro calibrators and the better ones at that. I have seen many use a very expensive but slow spectroradiometers to do their calibrations and these beasts (the meters not the calibrators) are very very slow especially at the low end of the ire scale/ So there calibrations take hours amnd hours and the fees can be very high but you do get a lot of pretty graphs often showing delta es much lower than the average bear.

Most calibrators have found that in order to do the job in a reasonable amount of time and keep the charge to the customers at something that more than a few might be willing to pay, they can use their expensive beasts to calibrate a much quicker probe such as a tristimulus colorimeter. The end results are a much quicker calibration with the measured results using the slow expensive spectroradiometer being almost as good. Before some scream Yea, mine is more accurate than yours, once we get delta es in the 1 to 2 class, they really are meaningless and beyond the threshold of our eyes being able to dustinguish a color difference. But the graphs sure look nice and show the customer what he has paid for. Whatever.

But really. Whether the cheaper colirimeter used takes16 second per reading or 22, the end result for tatal time spent really is not going to be significant. We are rapidly approaching full automation in the calibration industry with manufacturers selling interfaces that will allow particular calibration software to interface directly with the projector's calibration controls. Press a button and the mother will self calibrate using your probe, laptop, and calibration program. What's left for the calibrator? A little touch up.

Now good calibrators can help customers achieve as level of performance the customer couldn't achieve himself, but often that involves the calibrators knowledge beyond setting gray scale, gamma, and chromacity points.

These are hard times for calibrators because many people are learning to do it themselves and the costs of being able to do it really well have become much lower, approaching the costs of one or two really good professional calibrations and allowing the customer the ability to calibrate everything in his house to boot at no extra charge.

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post #465 of 1402 Old 08-20-2011, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I have got the bit about pro calibrators and the better ones at that. I have seen many use a very expensive but slow spectroradiometers to do their calibrations and these beasts (the meters not the calibrators) are very very slow especially at the low end of the ire scale/ So there calibrations take hours amnd hours and the fees can be very high but you do get a lot of pretty graphs often showing delta es much lower than the average bear.

Most calibrators have found that in order to do the job in a reasonable amount of time and keep the charge to the customers at something that more than a few might be willing to pay, they can use their expensive beasts to calibrate a much quicker probe such as a tristimulus colorimeter. The end results are a much quicker calibration with the measured results using the slow expensive spectroradiometer being almost as good. Before some scream Yea, mine is more accurate than yours, once we get delta es in the 1 to 2 class, they really are meaningless and beyond the threshold of our eyes being able to dustinguish a color difference. But the graphs sure look nice and show the customer what he has paid for. Whatever.

But really. Whether the cheaper colirimeter used takes16 second per reading or 22, the end result for tatal time spent really is not going to be significant. We are rapidly approaching full automation in the calibration industry with manufacturers selling interfaces that will allow particular calibration software to interface directly with the projector's calibration controls. Press a button and the mother will self calibrate using your probe, laptop, and calibration program. What's left for the calibrator? A little touch up.

Now good calibrators can help customers achieve as level of performance the customer couldn't achieve himself, but often that involves the calibrators knowledge beyond setting gray scale, gamma, and chromacity points.

These are hard times for calibrators because many people are learning to do it themselves and the costs of being able to do it really well have become much lower, approching the costs of one or two really good professional calibrations and allowing the customer the ability to calibrate everything in his house to boot at no extra charge.

+100%. The auto calibration provided in Calman or Chromapure definitely bring the value of the software (and a video processor, like DUO or Lumagen) up.. True professional calibrator I think is still very much in need, if I spend 6K+ for my PJ. I definitely want the best of everything... and only a true calibrator will be able to understand what compromise I need to make in order to do that. For PJ that is about 2-3k, the value might diminish somewhat... especially the PJ (after auto calibration) might already be as good as it can get.
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post #466 of 1402 Old 08-20-2011, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

I know many of the contributors in this thread are DIY calibrators, but I will speak for pro calibrators: speed is important!

As you wrote only for pro calibrators.

But shouldn't a pro use prof. equipment (like a K10)?


Calman vs Chromapure

Quote from Calmanforum: The hardware limit is lower 0.2 secounds but we found it can be unstable below 1 second.
If chromapure goes for the 0.2 second instead of the 1 second this would explain the speed difference.
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post #467 of 1402 Old 08-21-2011, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I have got the bit about pro calibrators and the better ones at that. I have seen many use a very expensive but slow spectroradiometers to do their calibrations and these beasts (the meters not the calibrators) are very very slow especially at the low end of the ire scale/ So there calibrations take hours amnd hours and the fees can be very high but you do get a lot of pretty graphs often showing delta es much lower than the average bear.

Most calibrators have found that in order to do the job in a reasonable amount of time and keep the charge to the customers at something that more than a few might be willing to pay, they can use their expensive beasts to calibrate a much quicker probe such as a tristimulus colorimeter. The end results are a much quicker calibration with the measured results using the slow expensive spectroradiometer being almost as good. Before some scream Yea, mine is more accurate than yours, once we get delta es in the 1 to 2 class, they really are meaningless and beyond the threshold of our eyes being able to dustinguish a color difference. But the graphs sure look nice and show the customer what he has paid for. Whatever.

But really. Whether the cheaper colirimeter used takes16 second per reading or 22, the end result for tatal time spent really is not going to be significant. We are rapidly approaching full automation in the calibration industry with manufacturers selling interfaces that will allow particular calibration software to interface directly with the projector's calibration controls. Press a button and the mother will self calibrate using your probe, laptop, and calibration program. What's left for the calibrator? A little touch up.

Now good calibrators can help customers achieve as level of performance the customer couldn't achieve himself, but often that involves the calibrators knowledge beyond setting gray scale, gamma, and chromacity points.

These are hard times for calibrators because many people are learning to do it themselves and the costs of being able to do it really well have become much lower, approching the costs of one or two really good professional calibrations and allowing the customer the ability to calibrate everything in his house to boot at no extra charge.

All good points.

With them in mind, do you think the new Xrite Display 3 is aimed at Professional Calibrators or the Amateur DIY market?
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post #468 of 1402 Old 08-21-2011, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV-Freak View Post

As you wrote only for pro calibrators.

But shouldn't a pro use prof. equipment (like a K10)?


Calman vs Chromapure

Quote from Calmanforum: The hardware limit is lower 0.2 secounds but we found it can be unstable below 1 second.
If chromapure goes for the 0.2 second instead of the 1 second this would explain the speed difference.

The C6 is considered a professional meter.

However, if the only thing that makes a colorimeter "Pro" grade is more tables and NIST cert... Those things don't matter if the meter is profiled off a spectro before use, which is probably the way most Pros will be using it. I know I will be doing that.

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post #469 of 1402 Old 08-21-2011, 07:28 AM
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As I said before, some calibrators use an expensive slow machine for their entire calibrations. These calibrations take a lot of time and are normally quite expensive. I think the results of the video pure calibration and not other HT services the calibrator may perform wouldn't be noticeably different than a calibration performed with a Display 3 that the the calibrator references to his expensive spectroradiometer at the start of the calibration.

The Display 3 and Chroma 5 do have some limitations and products may come out someday that are somewhat more expensive than the Display 3 but better and pro calibrators may end up purchasing and using those.

If I were a consumer, I wouldn't care if the calibrator used a Display 3 or a Chroma 5.
The Display is popular now because it is way more cool technology wise and is considerable cheaper than a Chroma 5.

In my opinion, the bit about the Spectracal being referenced to NIST is absolutely irrelevant. It might be if one were not going to use individually generated offsets either by the distributor of the probe or by the calibrator in the field. In that case, the accuracy of the calibrators reference spectroradiometer is the thing that counts.

Xrite charges the OEMer slightly more for a NIST traceable Display 3.

The reason for buying a 6 at its much higher price over a Display 3 Pro (and professional owning reference spectroradiometers only need purchase a Display3), is that one owns Calman and can't use it with a Display 3. The packaging and accessories? Please.

This will become Nah I am justified in choosing a 6, its better is BS.

I own both Chromapure and Calman. But I won't spend the money on a 6, I purchased a Displkay 3 Pro (I don't own a ref spectro). So I will now just use Chromapure for my auto cals.

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post #470 of 1402 Old 08-21-2011, 07:40 AM
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If in the future I wish to use my OEM i1 Display with ChromaPure (and convert it into the PRO version), will this be possible? I bought it from SpectraCal.

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post #471 of 1402 Old 08-21-2011, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

If in the future I wish to use my OEM i1 Display with ChromaPure (and convert it into the PRO version), will this be possible? I bought it from SpectraCal.

If it is a plain OEM version, then sure. If it is a C6, then probably not.

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post #472 of 1402 Old 08-21-2011, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

If it is a plain OEM version, then sure. If it is a C6, then probably not.

Yeah, it is the standard version, not the C6.

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post #473 of 1402 Old 08-21-2011, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

In my opinion, the bit about the Spectracal being referenced to NIST is absolutely irrelevant. It might be if one were not going to use individually generated offsets either by the distributor of the probe or by the calibrator in the field. In that case, the accuracy of the calibrators reference spectroradiometer is the thing that counts.

Xrite charges the OEMer slightly more for a NIST traceable Display 3.

I would be more careful about this question!

The usual procedure is to profile your 3 filtered + 1 unfiltered luminance meter = colorimeter by comparing the measurements of the Display Primaries with the results of a spectrometer (which measures the radiance intensity at numerous different wavelength points to interpolate the spectral distribution of the light and integrate the XYZ values according to the observer functions).

This gives you nothing else but a simple 3x3 matrix! The devices are only aligned at one given luminance level! I never saw any calibration software which offers you to create and use 3DLUTs for meter profiling.

So, your colorimeter must be fairly linear, or everything is broken! The gamma tracking of the calibrated display will be false. Moreover, your correction matrix will become invalid if the individual filtered channels have different non-linear characteristics.

If the colorimeter isn't linear enough then you need numerous matrices for numerous light levels. That would be a 3DLUT (like the Lab and XYZ cLUT based ICM profiles for printers and PC displays).


If the NIST certification grants you a trustfully linear sensor then it can actually be a MUST HAVE for those who want to trust in their profiled colorimeters almost as much as they trust in their reference grade spectrometers!


Sidenote_1: Of course, you can test the linearity of your colorimeter with your own reference grade spectro but that could be quiet a job and may worth a few hundred dollars for a busy man to get it done by NIST...


Sidenote_2:

We shouldn't even talk about 3x3 matrix colorimeter profiles anymore because X-Rite showed us the way: they measure and save the spectral response of the colorimeters in the firmware! If you compare those with the spectral characteristics of a display (it wouldn't require you to measure every single display units all the time, you could just load the files of a given display model from your own or even from an online database -> you wouldn't need to carry your own spectro at all if you delt with the same display model or you have access to an online databse !!!) and BAAAM, your colorimeter has almost reference grade accuracy with it's own internal precision. (Linearity still remains a question though...)

SpectraCal and ChromaPure guys should update that branch averaged response data in the firmware for the PRO versions, put up an online database of spectral measurements from numerous display models and that's it.


But no...


The X-Rite product was indeed supposed to be revolutionary (just like the topic title says) but the miracle has been canceled guys, please return to your "good old" routines and think you make the real deal, thanks...
(Don't misunderstand me, it's still a nice sensor for it's price. I mean BOTH of them, even the C6! Only the software side is less revolutionary or even up-to-date than they want to think...)


Supplemental_1:

Hmm... I am not sure if ChromaPure actually offers some kind of 3DLUT based meter profiles for their PRO labelled products. (They talk about "figures", not only matrices...)
If that's the case then a ChromaPure branded PRO version could be usufull for even those who have a spctro (unless... I don't know... does ChromaPure offer this kind of profiling on the field too...? I mean not only 3x3 matrix...?).

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post #474 of 1402 Old 08-21-2011, 08:46 AM
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Has anyone said the C6 uses 3x3 matrices to it's display types?
Because it doesn't.

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post #475 of 1402 Old 08-21-2011, 08:58 AM
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Janos. Thanks for the explanation. But the probe isn't certified by NIST and I know you used the if. It, the probe, is traceable to a NIST certified reference device, whatever that means. Is the one Xrite charges slightly more for, for the traceability, mean that the device is linear? What does an OEMer that generates a simple offset table gain and what does the consumer gain by the probe comming from Xrite traceable to NIST?

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post #476 of 1402 Old 08-21-2011, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Has anyone said the C6 uses 3x3 matrices to it's display types?
Because it doesn't.

No, I only said the usual proceduce is to create a 3x3 matrix on the field. That's what they talk about as a comparison to the PRO and C6 versions.

I think the colorimeter (Pro or Non-PRO, D3 or C6 all) must have some kind of 3DLUT or more likely "matrix + curve type" ( [different matrices for different displays and a curve for light intensity linearity] or something similar but more detailed than a simple 3x3 matrix...) correction internally (for the factory and/or "post-factory" [C6] calibration).

If these corections are also better in the C6 (either X-Rite claibrates them individually instead of including branch averaged values or SpectraCal refines them...) than they are in the OEM D3 then it's a nice thing and worth some money.

But everything I can hear are things like:
1: "The PRO version has improved corrections for plasma." -> Yah, but which plasma display exactly...? They can have significantly different spectral distributions...
2: "If somebody carries his own spectro to profile his meter on the field." -> Ok, but usually it's a 3x3 matrix only (if the PRO or C6 versions offer more than a simple 3x3 matrix then they worth more money even for those with a spectro...)

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post #477 of 1402 Old 08-21-2011, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

The C6 is considered a professional meter.

And I am writing about the OEM EODIS3 ...

Do you have any figures for the C6 (guaranteed speed, accuracy, ...)?
I was not able to find any.
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post #478 of 1402 Old 08-21-2011, 10:23 AM
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I don't have any figures for the C6. I think we're all waiting for Spectracal to release them. Their promotional charts, though, imply up to a 5x speed increase over the OEM i1Display.

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post #479 of 1402 Old 08-22-2011, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

I know many of the contributors in this thread are DIY calibrators, but I will speak for pro calibrators: speed is important!

Good calibrators never rush a job. We spend as long as it takes. And that's why I would have loved a faster meter when I did my 1st VT30 with the 10 point adjustment. I had to do a ton of 10 point runs to get that beast dialed in right and get a handle on it's quirks. Maybe a fast meter would have cut the 15 hours down to something more bearable, like 8-10.

15hrs...Is the VT30 that tough?!!
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post #480 of 1402 Old 08-22-2011, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by avsform1 View Post

15hrs...Is the VT30 that tough?!!

Learning curve ... the first one is always a ***** . Once you figure out the quirks of a model, the next one goes much faster.
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