X-Rite's Revolutionary New Colorimeter - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1402 Old 08-26-2011, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I am not happy about this. How is ChromaPure able to run the same hardware faster without affecting the 'stability' of the readings? Has SpectraCal actually crippled the OEM i1 Display to make the C6 seem faster?
I hope this is not the case.
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post #542 of 1402 Old 08-26-2011, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grishi View Post
I hope this is not the case.
I see that PlasmaPZ80U has asked some questions over at the Spectracal forum and according to the replies, it does appear to be true that the OEM performance is crippled.
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post #543 of 1402 Old 08-26-2011, 04:56 PM
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So it seems that the same device is crippled due to the Calman software and not with ChromaPure? Not a very good marketing strategy by Calman in my opinion. A direct comparison would be nice to see.

Tom,
-Any update on ChromaPure and being able to support ColorMunki in the future?
-If Calman was used to profile the i1 Display 3 to a ColorMunki, would the offsets be able to be put into ChromaPure in order to use the i1 Display 3 with this software?
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post #544 of 1402 Old 08-26-2011, 05:46 PM
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According to Derek's replies to some questions on the Spectracal forum, it looks like the C6 can be as much as 10x faster than the OEM version of the meter under Calman. He does state that some accuracy would be sacrificed at the fastest setting.
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post #545 of 1402 Old 08-26-2011, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razz1 View Post
-Any update on ChromaPure and being able to support ColorMunki in the future?
-If Calman was used to profile the i1 Display 3 to a ColorMunki, would the offsets be able to be put into ChromaPure in order to use the i1 Display 3 with this software?
No. X-Rite licensing requirements currently precludes this. It may change.

You can always manually enter xy data obtained from an unsupported device for the reference meter to correct the supported field meter.

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post #546 of 1402 Old 08-26-2011, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
Use full screen with digital projectors.
Tom, When using autocal in CP with the Radiance (once I finally find out how to load in the driver for connecting my laptop to the Radiance!), will the full screen color patterns automatically be called up from the Radiance, or is this something that has to be done manually?
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post #547 of 1402 Old 08-26-2011, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibre34 View Post
But the hood shadow may affect the readings also... yes? no?
The idea is to be able to put the hood right up to the screen to eliminate any ambient light that may contaminate the reading. I'm talking about a plasma display and not a projector where the shadow would be a problem.

Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50, Oppo 95, Tivo Roamio for OTA, Dish VIP722, Marantz AV8801 preamp, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP, Calman 5, Chromapure, Accupel DVG-5000, i1Display3pro, i1pro2, eecolor colorbox.
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post #548 of 1402 Old 08-26-2011, 10:01 PM - Thread Starter
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In the Signal Generator setup window there's a place to choose windows or full fields.

Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Tom, When using autocal in CP with the Radiance (once I finally find out how to load in the driver for connecting my laptop to the Radiance!), will the full screen color patterns automatically be called up from the Radiance, or is this something that has to be done manually?


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post #549 of 1402 Old 08-27-2011, 12:17 AM
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Just did a calibration with my new i1 Display 3 PRO with ChromaPure....dayum, this thing is FAST!

Tried the Auto-Calibration feature....did an entire set of Gamma, Greyscale, and Color Gamut and it took under 10 minutes. With my i1 Display LT, it would take 30 minutes easy! I always go in manually and tweak afterwards, but Auto-Cal gets you most of the way there (also, I like to calibrate color with 75% Saturation patterns).

It's also nice to be able finally calibrate a 10% Greyscale window at 2.22 with under 1.5 dE. It was impossible with the Display LT. It makes a huge difference with image shadow details.

Also, the PRO definitely reads light levels better than the LT. My PRO reading at 100% white are 20 cd/m2 higher than the readings I got with the LT.

I'm gonna sit back and check out a movie now, but just had to say, this meter rocks!
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post #550 of 1402 Old 08-27-2011, 05:41 AM
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How did you get a i1 Display Pro to work with Chromapure?!?!

And what values are corect (cd/m² at 100% white)?
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post #551 of 1402 Old 08-27-2011, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV-Freak View Post

How did you get a i1 Display Pro to work with Chromapure?!?!

And what values are corect (cd/m² at 100% white)?

I bought it from ChromaPure, and was provided with a license that allows the meter to be recognized and used in ChromaPure.

The "correct" cd/m² at 100% white is given by Tom Huffman as between 41-55 for front projectors, which gives a reading of 12-16 fL, and 103-137 cd/m² (30-40 fL) for CRT and flat panel TVs.

However, some displays, particularly projectors can't reach these numbers without causing clipping, so contrast needs to be set lower. The best advice is to set contrast as high as you can without:

1: clipping below 235
2: causing discoloration of gray at 100%
3: causing eyestrain from excessive light output.

The numbers given above are considered ideal, and are a good reference, but you can be well under them and still get a great image. At 100% white on my Epson 6100, I'm getting a reading of 35 cd/m² (10.2) and everything looks great.
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post #552 of 1402 Old 08-27-2011, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

I bought it from ChromaPure, and was provided with a license that allows the meter to be recognized and used in ChromaPure.

Ah so you use an OEM EODIS3 and not as written an i1 Display Pro.
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post #553 of 1402 Old 08-27-2011, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV-Freak View Post


Ah so you use an OEM EODIS3 and not as written an i1 Display Pro.

The OEM is also called the i1 Display Pro.
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post #554 of 1402 Old 08-28-2011, 03:55 PM
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I think the OEM version can be called anything.. i.e. up to the vendor.
Calman called them i1Display-OEM..
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post #555 of 1402 Old 08-28-2011, 03:59 PM
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I do have a question on how to place the i1D3 when measuring off my PJ screen.
I read that you should not tilt it up/down (i.e. stay horizontal). However, with using a window screen, there is bound to be shadow (ceiling mount), if I place it right in the middle of the window pattern. What is the best way to measure it?
Also, Tom mentioned that I should not tilt it up/down, but Calman forum mentioned it should be OK as it contains a mixing chamber and focus lens.... So, I am now confused.
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post #556 of 1402 Old 08-28-2011, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

I do have a question on how to place the i1D3 when measuring off my PJ screen.
I read that you should not tilt it up/down (i.e. stay horizontal). However, with using a window screen, there is bound to be shadow (ceiling mount), if I place it right in the middle of the window pattern. What is the best way to measure it?
Also, Tom mentioned that I should not tilt it up/down, but Calman forum mentioned it should be OK as it contains a mixing chamber and focus lens.... So, I am now confused.

I placed mine just slightly off center facing the screen, then turned it slightly to face the center. I then took a continuous reading of a 100% window and kept adjusting (turning) the i1D3 and stopped when I reached maximum Y. It's easy to tell this way if you're hitting the shadow because the Y reading drops considerably.
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post #557 of 1402 Old 08-28-2011, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

I placed mine just slightly off center facing the screen, then turned it slightly to face the center. I then took a continuous reading of a 100% window and kept adjusting (turning) the i1D3 and stopped when I reached maximum Y. It's easy to tell this way if you're hitting the shadow because the Y reading drops considerably.

Thanks Kilgore? Would it be too trouble if you take a picture and show me your setup? I think I understand what you mean, but want to be sure.
BTW, in your setup, you will still see shadow in your pattern window.. but what you are doing is just to make sure the device is not reading it, correct?
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post #558 of 1402 Old 08-28-2011, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

No. X-Rite licensing requirements currently precludes this. It may change.

You can always manually enter xy data obtained from an unsupported device for the reference meter to correct the supported field meter.

Tom,

Calman will give me a XYZ matrix. Is this what I used to input to CP for profile?
I really want to try out CP, but I already have CM-Spectro, and so kind of "stuck". However, if there is a way to input the profile data to CP.. maybe that's my ticket way out. Thanks.
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post #559 of 1402 Old 08-28-2011, 10:48 PM - Thread Starter
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You just type xy reference values for RGBW and then measure xy field values for RGBW and then apply the correction.

http://www.chromapure.com/demos-21correction.asp

The demo shows measurements taken by the reference meter, but if that meter is not supported you can just as easily type in the values.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

Calman will give me a XYZ matrix. Is this what I used to input to CP for profile?
I really want to try out CP, but I already have CM-Spectro, and so kind of "stuck". However, if there is a way to input the profile data to CP.. maybe that's my ticket way out. Thanks.


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post #560 of 1402 Old 08-28-2011, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

You just type xy reference values for RGBW and then measure xy field values for RGBW and then apply the correction.

http://www.chromapure.com/demos-21correction.asp

The demo shows measurements taken by the reference meter, but if that meter is not supported you can just as easily type in the values.

I recently used this method for profiling a D2 using an i1Display Pro Retail. With the AVS calibration disk I used 75% apl to display W, R, G, B - for each image I measured the reference using i1Profiler software with the i1Display Pro, and manually entered into ChromaPure. ChromaPure measures the 'field' primaries of the D2 and apply the correction.

To measure the xy's using i1Profiler software go to "Display settings", (first step of display profiling), under luminance dropdown click "measure", change "..ambient light" dropdown to "..second display", click to display the white patch and then the measure button is enabled. Measurements are shown to the 0.001 precision. (0.0001 precision measurements can be extracted by saving the display profile (with measured point) and opening the saved setup file with a text editor - but I don't think the added difficulty is worth it)

cheers
Gary
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post #561 of 1402 Old 08-29-2011, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

You just type xy reference values for RGBW and then measure xy field values for RGBW and then apply the correction.

http://www.chromapure.com/demos-21correction.asp

The demo shows measurements taken by the reference meter, but if that meter is not supported you can just as easily type in the values.

Tom,

Did CP then use this xy data to make a color correction matrix, or does CP simply apply an offset? If CP just simply apply the offset to the data, then it does not seem quite accurate... I am no color science expert, but doesn't most software, like ICC profile, use color correction matrix instead?
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post #562 of 1402 Old 08-29-2011, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post


Tom,

Did CP then use this xy data to make a color correction matrix, or does CP simply apply an offset? If CP just simply apply the offset to the data, then it does not seem quite accurate... I am no color science expert, but doesn't most software, like ICC profile, use color correction matrix instead?

ChromaPure uses a color correction matrix. More information on the correction matrix used can be found here: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf
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post #563 of 1402 Old 08-29-2011, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

Thanks Kilgore? Would it be too trouble if you take a picture and show me your setup? I think I understand what you mean, but want to be sure.
BTW, in your setup, you will still see shadow in your pattern window.. but what you are doing is just to make sure the device is not reading it, correct?

I don't have a camera. It's quite simple. Put the meter about a foot and a half away from the screen, facing the screen directly at the shadow. Then swivel the meter until it doesn't point at the shadow.

If you take a continuous 100% white pattern reading as you swivel the meter, you'll see the Y value rise as you move away from the shadow. Just keep turning the meter until you find the highest reading for Y. If you turn too far, the Y value will drop. The highest Y value you get will be where the meter should point.

I position the meter off-center from the screen, but facing forward into the shadow, and then turn the meter slowly towards center, watching the Y value as I go.
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post #564 of 1402 Old 08-29-2011, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R10KYJ View Post

ChromaPure uses a color correction matrix. More information on the correction matrix used can be found here: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

Thanks! That's reassuring. I am used to entering XYZ matrix (as in both Calman and HCFR), so I just feel a bit nervous when I see that I only need to enter xy data.. So, it seems like CP will indeed take the xy data and then covert to the CC matrix. That's great!
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post #565 of 1402 Old 08-29-2011, 07:36 PM
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fight4yu, if you end up giving CP a shot, any direct comparison info you derive would be informative and appreciated.
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post #566 of 1402 Old 08-30-2011, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I spoke with X-Rite about this today. They are still discussing this issue internally, so I don't have an answer right now. As soon as I find out one way or the other, I'll make a public announcement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

This situation with the OEM vs. retail meters is 100% an X-Rite issue. I am still awaiting clarification from them. There is apparently some internal debate and/or miscommunication within the company over this. When I get an official (and I hope final) word on whether we can or can't support the retail version of the i1 Display Pro III, I'll provide that information. As of now, I just don't know.


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post #567 of 1402 Old 08-30-2011, 04:07 PM
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I am not very happy with X-rite over this one. I was about to buy an i1 Display 2 as my LT was a few years old and the upgrade cost 2/3 of a new unit. (Bought it solely for HT and was shocked at the impact on my computer monitor therefore needed Display 2 to set brightness and match monitors with iMatch. Also would have a newer, more accurate unit.)

I read about the Display 3 here and made the assumption it would have the same I/O interface and could use it in HFCR or at least one of the available software packages. So I ordered the retail version and it shipped just as the info about the OEM one came out.

So now the i1 Display 3 I own will not allow me to calibrate my TV

and

The new iPublish does not walk you through adjusting contrast and does not allow for adjusting color balance with monitor controls. It tries to compensate only by modifying LUTs, unlike iMatch.

So I have a crippled device for home theater and with worse software for my computer. I emailed Xrite to inform them of my displeasure. Everyone should email them and complain about their licensing system. Maybe with a little pressure from consumers we can get them to change their minds.
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post #568 of 1402 Old 08-30-2011, 05:37 PM
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@DJSloan
See grcass' post above. He indicates that it is possible extract the xy data from the X-Rite software. It's a pain, but you could then enter the data manually into some analysis software to perform HT calibration.
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post #569 of 1402 Old 08-31-2011, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grcass View Post

I recently used this method for profiling a D2 using an i1Display Pro Retail. With the AVS calibration disk I used 75% apl to display W, R, G, B - for each image I measured the reference using i1Profiler software with the i1Display Pro, and manually entered into ChromaPure. ChromaPure measures the 'field' primaries of the D2 and apply the correction.

To measure the xy's using i1Profiler software go to "Display settings", (first step of display profiling), under luminance dropdown click "measure", change "..ambient light" dropdown to "..second display", click to display the white patch and then the measure button is enabled. Measurements are shown to the 0.001 precision. (0.0001 precision measurements can be extracted by saving the display profile (with measured point) and opening the saved setup file with a text editor - but I don't think the added difficulty is worth it)

cheers
Gary

Thanks for highlighting this.

Tom H's post that this refers to also gives some sort of methodology.

I realise that Tom is trying to get 'Retail Version' opened up for Chromapure use but until then there is only the option of a price premium for OEM Version.

Surely there could be some sort of crossover software that could make this excellent method available to less capable members (like me).

I know a member of the now redundant DVDO Edge Beta Forum wrote an Excel macro to 'save' all readings when a different firmware caused the loss of this data (factory default triggered). Not exactly an identical situation but the idea may be the same.

If Xrite refuse to see that allowing CHromapure to use retail is the correct way forward then perhaps it could be written into the original software or am I being naiive about this?
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post #570 of 1402 Old 08-31-2011, 05:05 PM
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"I realise that Tom is trying to get 'Retail Version' opened up for Chromapure use but until then there is only the option of a price premium for OEM Version."

I don't mind paying a small price premium but to have to buy a second unit at a premium is not reasonable. If they were licensing OEM meters they should have been very clear on the retail packaging and specs that it would not work with 3rd party software
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