X-Rite's Revolutionary New Colorimeter - Page 47 - AVS Forum
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post #1381 of 1402 Old 09-20-2013, 12:18 PM
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It doesn't have to be on Bluray. Will burn on standard DVD.

Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50, Oppo 95, Tivo Roamio for OTA, Dish VIP722, Marantz AV8801 preamp, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP, Calman 5, Chromapure, Accupel DVG-5000, i1Display3pro, i1pro2, eecolor colorbox.
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post #1382 of 1402 Old 09-20-2013, 09:10 PM
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I've hit a snag. How do I push out the blue and red to 100%? because no matter what I do red is stuck there since it can't be more saturated and blue goes off the guide (straight down) if it becomes too heavy. Cyan is exactly in line with the white line to it's 100% destination but can't seem to go any further because of where blue is?

4yq5.th.jpg

Is this why the certified experts go into the service menu? that I've been reading for months. Or is this happening because I don't have the device right up against the screen?

This model is a Samsung 50" ES6300.
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post #1383 of 1402 Old 09-20-2013, 09:29 PM
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No you are up against the limits of the screen.

The only thing you could possibly do is use the saturation option to align the 75% saturation points. Maybe that would look better maybe it wouldn't.


Their isn't a good reason to go into the service menu, imho.

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post #1384 of 1402 Old 09-20-2013, 09:40 PM
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Yeah, I wasn't planing to.

Is this the reason why £2k tv's perform better calibration? since everyone here seems to be able to meet the targets.

Does anyone ever see 100% in content?
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post #1385 of 1402 Old 09-20-2013, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xvfx View Post

Yeah, I wasn't planing to.

Is this the reason why £2k tv's perform better calibration? since everyone here seems to be able to meet the targets.

Does anyone ever see 100% in content?

I don't get exposed to every TV out there, but the amount that display is undersaturated doesn't appear to be that significant. That chart exaggerates the issue.

It's not uncommon at all for white LED TV's to be undersaturated. TV's are priced on features not accuracy.

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post #1386 of 1402 Old 09-25-2013, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

You use your eyeballs while viewing a sharpness pattern. Has nothing to do with software and meters.

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Originally Posted by Rob67 View Post

Yes indeed. Just download an ISO for AVSHD 709 on BluRay. Every pattern you need is there, including Sharpness.



Hmm, curious.... so whats true? I've been reading these opinions for years regarding sharpness. So many always say 0 because anything higher is fake.

As after calibration, it's about 11-12 for Movie in Blu-Ray and 14 for Standard. Though for Sky HD because it's a lot softer image, 15 looks the sweet spot in Movie.

Though to be honest, the AVS 709 and Mascior's test patterns look great at 0 even about 6ft away but doesn't carry well over to gaming and Sky HD. Yet Blu-Ray still looks good at 0 but not as pin sharp as 11-12.
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Originally Posted by RottenFox 
Yes, as "blurry"(which it's not) is normal..oversharpening the image is what you are used to, and isn't real, as its an effect.
lowering it can improve the image on some feeds, reducing blocking, and grain effect.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/12351587-post13.html
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post #1387 of 1402 Old 09-25-2013, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xvfx View Post


Hmm, curious.... so whats true? I've been reading these opinions for years regarding sharpness. So many always say 0 because anything higher is fake.

As after calibration, it's about 11-12 for Movie in Blu-Ray and 14 for Standard. Though for Sky HD because it's a lot softer image, 15 looks the sweet spot in Movie.

Though to be honest, the AVS 709 and Mascior's test patterns look great at 0 even about 6ft away but doesn't carry well over to gaming and Sky HD. Yet Blu-Ray still looks good at 0 but not as pin sharp as 11-12.
http://www.avforums.com/forums/12351587-post13.html
There is no one setting that is valid for all displays. You have to put up a test pattern and eyeball it. Use the highest sharpness setting that does not cause ringing on vertical and horizontal lines.

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post #1388 of 1402 Old 10-15-2013, 10:27 AM
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So now that it's been out for over a year can anyone tell me whether or not the D3 "drifts"? I have an old i1 Display LT which has drifted and is no longer a good option for display calibration. I'm thinking of spending $230 for the D3 or more for a spectro to "correct" my Display LT.
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post #1389 of 1402 Old 10-16-2013, 01:37 AM
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The D3 design is meant to be more stable due to the fact that the optical diodes are sealed within the device along with the respective RGB filters. It's the filters that drift. Maybe Tom H has got some actual data that could confirm this increased stability.
The only experience I have is that the correction offset generated using an i1Pro and D3 combination on my KRP500M has remained very stable. That's the readings off the plasma, and the difference between i1Pro & D3 (my D3 is a stock OEM device, not one of the Pro versions that Tom can supply, hence the use of the i1Pro)
Hope this helps, Mike.
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post #1390 of 1402 Old 10-16-2013, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post

The D3 design is meant to be more stable due to the fact that the optical diodes are sealed within the device along with the respective RGB filters. It's the filters that drift. Maybe Tom H has got some actual data that could confirm this increased stability.
The only experience I have is that the correction offset generated using an i1Pro and D3 combination on my KRP500M has remained very stable. That's the readings off the plasma, and the difference between i1Pro & D3 (my D3 is a stock OEM device, not one of the Pro versions that Tom can supply, hence the use of the i1Pro)
Hope this helps, Mike.

Mike, as a hobbiest, I don't have an i1Pro to perform an offset correction to my D3. Have you found the difference to be drastic? Or was your D3 relatively close? (I know relatively is a subjective term)
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post #1391 of 1402 Old 10-16-2013, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daMaster View Post

So now that it's been out for over a year can anyone tell me whether or not the D3 "drifts"? I have an old i1 Display LT which has drifted and is no longer a good option for display calibration. I'm thinking of spending $230 for the D3 or more for a spectro to "correct" my Display LT.

As AV_Mike mentioned, really the only way to know how much it has drifted is to compare against a known accurate reference device (something that is likely NIST certified). You can't take a new D3, calibrate your display, and then recheck in a year and assume that any change is due to the display drifting. Some part of the change will be be due to the colorimeter drifting as well.

Not sure if Tom has any examples of this as the D3 is still reasonably new and (generally speaking) very few people actually send meters in with any sort of frequency or consistency to have them recalibrated. What happens more often than not is by the time the home user thinks it's time to get their meter recal'ed, they end up buying whatever is the newest technology (ie: upgrading from a D2/LT to the D3).

In the mean time, stick that colorimeter in a freezer ziplock with a few desiccant packs and you'll extend its life.

Kal
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post #1392 of 1402 Old 02-18-2014, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by daMaster View Post

So now that it's been out for over a year can anyone tell me whether or not the D3 "drifts"? I have an old i1 Display LT which has drifted and is no longer a good option for display calibration. I'm thinking of spending $230 for the D3 or more for a spectro to "correct" my Display LT.

As AV_Mike mentioned, really the only way to know how much it has drifted is to compare against a known accurate reference device (something that is likely NIST certified). You can't take a new D3, calibrate your display, and then recheck in a year and assume that any change is due to the display drifting. Some part of the change will be be due to the colorimeter drifting as well.

Not sure if Tom has any examples of this as the D3 is still reasonably new and (generally speaking) very few people actually send meters in with any sort of frequency or consistency to have them recalibrated. What happens more often than not is by the time the home user thinks it's time to get their meter recal'ed, they end up buying whatever is the newest technology (ie: upgrading from a D2/LT to the D3).

In the mean time, stick that colorimeter in a freezer ziplock with a few desiccant packs and you'll extend its life.

Kal

Few quick newbie questions:

What is the magnitude of 'drift' over 12 months that colorimeter like the D3 will exhibit? Are we talking about an impact which will be visible to the amateur?

Is there any difference in the amount of drift expected in the Colormunki Display compared to the D3?

Where can colorimeters such as the D3 or Colormunki Display be 'sent in' for recalibration and how much does it cost?

thanks,

-fafrd
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post #1393 of 1402 Old 02-18-2014, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

What is the magnitude of 'drift' over 12 months that colorimeter like the D3 will exhibit? Are we talking about an impact which will be visible to the amateur?
I don't know. You're asking for hard/fast numbers to something that has too many variables associated with it.

Quote:
Is there any difference in the amount of drift expected in the Colormunki Display compared to the D3?
It's the same hardware so I'd expect similar drift, within reason.

Quote:
Where can colorimeters such as the D3 or Colormunki Display be 'sent in' for recalibration and how much does it cost?
Not to X-rite directly, but through software such as ChromaPure, recalibration is offered. The meter is measured against a known accurate (reference) meter and software offsets are created.

Kal
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post #1394 of 1402 Old 02-18-2014, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

What is the magnitude of 'drift' over 12 months that colorimeter like the D3 will exhibit? Are we talking about an impact which will be visible to the amateur?
I don't know. You're asking for hard/fast numbers to something that has too many variables associated with it.

Understand. Sounds like one just needs to plunge in and discover as time goes by.

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Originally Posted by kal View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Is there any difference in the amount of drift expected in the Colormunki Display compared to the D3?
It's the same hardware so I'd expect similar drift, within reason.

Good - thanks. Are there other factors that would make the D3 worth the additional $80 over the Colormunki Display for use with HCFR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Where can colorimeters such as the D3 or Colormunki Display be 'sent in' for recalibration and how much does it cost?
Not to X-rite directly, but through software such as ChromaPure, recalibration is offered. The meter is measured against a known accurate (reference) meter and software offsets are created.

Kal

How much does such a recalibration cost? And for the recalibration offered by ChromaPure, does that mean that the recalibrated D3 can still be used with HCFR? Can the ChromaPure recalibration also be done on a Colormunki Display?

Thanks again for the help,

-fafrd
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post #1395 of 1402 Old 02-18-2014, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Good - thanks. Are there other factors that would make the D3 worth the additional $80 over the Colormunki Display for use with HCFR?
I've never used the Colormunki, but my understanding is that the D3 is considerably faster. The internet tell me up to 5x faster. (The internet wouldn't lie would it?) wink.gif

Quote:
How much does such a recalibration cost?
See here for pricing (last item in the list).

Quote:
And for the recalibration offered by ChromaPure, does that mean that the recalibrated D3 can still be used with HCFR?
It will still work with HCFR but the recalibration values are not used as the meter cannot/is not altered.

Quote:
Can the ChromaPure recalibration also be done on a Colormunki Display?
ChromaPure does not support the Colormunki. I believe this is due to licensing restrictions.

Kal
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post #1396 of 1402 Old 02-18-2014, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Good - thanks. Are there other factors that would make the D3 worth the additional $80 over the Colormunki Display for use with HCFR?
I've never used the Colormunki, but my understanding is that the D3 is considerably faster. The internet tell me up to 5x faster. (The internet wouldn't lie would it?) wink.gif

Quote:
How much does such a recalibration cost?
See here for pricing (last item in the list).

Quote:
And for the recalibration offered by ChromaPure, does that mean that the recalibrated D3 can still be used with HCFR?
It will still work with HCFR but the recalibration values are not used as the meter cannot/is not altered.

Quote:
Can the ChromaPure recalibration also be done on a Colormunki Display?
ChromaPure does not support the Colormunki. I believe this is due to licensing restrictions.

Kal

Thanks. Seeing that a recalibration costs about as much as a Colormunki Display, I'm thinking what I may do is get a Colormunki Display and try to learn basic calibration using HCFR. I'm getting a new LED/LCD near the end of the year and if that 'learning' solution has either drifted significantly or is too slow, an upgrade to a new D3 (and also possibly one of the supported calibration software packages like ChromaPure) could be the right next step.

To the extent that I am thinking about a first Colorimeter to be replaced in 10 months, is there an even more cost-effective option that the Colormonki that you suggest I consider?

thanks again for your help, Kal

-fafrd
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post #1397 of 1402 Old 02-18-2014, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

To the extent that I am thinking about a first Colorimeter to be replaced in 10 months, is there an even more cost-effective option that the Colormonki that you suggest I consider?
Nope. The i1 Display Pro (aka Display 3) is the lowest cost meter I recommend, and it's more expensive than the ColorMunki.

Keep in mind that this recalibration we talk about is not trying to get the meter to it's initial state - it's getting to accurate to begin with. At around $200 these are cheap consumer devices with varying degrees of accuracy from one unit to the next. Don't assume that a $200 device even when new is going to be anywhere near as accurate as a $1000 device let alone a $10,000+ reference device. Most people that opt for recalibration do so when buying a new unit to ensure that it's accurate to begin with.

Kal
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post #1398 of 1402 Old 02-18-2014, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

To the extent that I am thinking about a first Colorimeter to be replaced in 10 months, is there an even more cost-effective option that the Colormonki that you suggest I consider?
Nope. The i1 Display Pro (aka Display 3) is the lowest cost meter I recommend, and it's more expensive than the ColorMunki.

Keep in mind that this recalibration we talk about is not trying to get the meter to it's initial state - it's getting to accurate to begin with. At around $200 these are cheap consumer devices with varying degrees of accuracy from one unit to the next. Don't assume that a $200 device even when new is going to be anywhere near as accurate as a $1000 device let alone a $10,000+ reference device. Most people that opt for recalibration do so when buying a new unit to ensure that it's accurate to begin with.

Kal

Got you - so even new, out of the box, a Colormunki Display or even an i1 Display Pro (3) can be somewhat inaccurate (or have drifted since it was manufactured)...

So I suppose in that case what I should think about is maybe getting an i1 Display Pro now, learn on it prior to calibration, and have it calibrated prior to calibrating my new TV at the end of the year.

I could pursue this strategy with an I! Display Pro, but not with a Colormunki, correct?

-fafrd
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post #1399 of 1402 Old 02-18-2014, 08:31 PM
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You could rent a ColorMunki Photo from lensrentals.com and profile your meter against it on the displays you have at the time:

http://www.lensrentals.com/rent/calibration/colormunki

Just make sure your software supports this process and the meters involved. The result of profiling is a 3x3 correction matrix that you can reuse indefinitely with your displays and other displays of the same types, e.g. plasma, CCFL, LED. I would get very familiar with using the software and as familiar as possible with the profiling process before signing up for a rental. You can read about my experience doing this with Calman Enthusiast here:

http://www.spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=5171
http://www.spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=5198

The first thread documents why I had to abandon the automated profile creation in Calman and how was I able to do it manually, plus it gives some tips on getting more repeatable and accurate behavior out of the i1D3, particularly for red, if you choose to go that way. The second one talks about issues switching between profiles and how to work around that.
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post #1400 of 1402 Old 02-18-2014, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

You could rent a ColorMunki Photo from lensrentals.com and profile your meter against it on the displays you have at the time:

http://www.lensrentals.com/rent/calibration/colormunki

Just make sure your software supports this process and the meters involved. The result of profiling is a 3x3 correction matrix that you can reuse indefinitely with your displays and other displays of the same types, e.g. plasma, CCFL, LED. I would get very familiar with using the software and as familiar as possible with the profiling process before signing up for a rental. You can read about my experience doing this with Calman Enthusiast here:

http://www.spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=5171
http://www.spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=5198

The first thread documents why I had to abandon the automated profile creation in Calman and how was I able to do it manually, plus it gives some tips on getting more repeatable and accurate behavior out of the i1D3, particularly for red, if you choose to go that way. The second one talks about issues switching between profiles and how to work around that.

sawfish,

thanks for this information - renting a spectro to calibrate the colorimeter when the time comes for 'prime time' is an interesting option and I will study your threads.

I was planning to use HCFR - will that support the 3x3 correction matrix you have described?

Also, I am debating between the i1D3 or the Colormunki Display - will this technique work with either or these colorimeters and/or is there any advantage of the i1D3 for this manual calibration procedure?

thanks again,

-fafrd
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post #1401 of 1402 Old 02-18-2014, 09:38 PM
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I've never used HCFR outside a VM just to briefly check it out, but it does support meter profiles. However, I was not able to figure out how to get it to calculate a matrix from xyY values. SpectraCal provides a program for this, which is what saved me as I could not get the Calman automated process to work right for my plasma, and I've since located a spreadsheet here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1393853/hcfr-open-source-projector-and-display-calibration-software/630#post_22046028

It would have been slightly more convenient for me to use the spreadsheet, but there are a variety of ways to calculate and use this matrix, and I would have stuck with Calman anyway; I would think it's self-consistent even if the automated profiling is buggy at present. Even if you use the automated profiling, I would recommend measuring xyY for 100%/100% WRGB and saving those values just in case, so that you can calculate the matrix yourself if you discover something went wrong. I described that in more detail in the threads I linked to.

About the meters, the i1D3 is considered the current "go-to" colorimeter, and to the extent I understand the confusing X-Rite names and licensing policies, the Display is cheaper, slower, and works with fewer softwares, but even the i1D3 has Retail and OEM models with different licensing constraints, so, do your research.

One thing about renting the Munki Photo. The X-Rite software for it is very interesting and can do things like read the color of the paint on your wall, but jeez, it installs a ton of services and startup programs, and I would not want it on my PC. I anticipated this and installed it to a VM, and thankfully, it did copy the driver .inf and .sys files to the installation folder, and I was able to copy them to my real Windows 7x64 PC and install the driver manually for Calman. SpectraCal does provide a "driver pack" that I presume installs Munki drivers, but I'm not a huge fan of it as you will see if you search my posts on their forum. The i1D3 is nice in that for Calman, at least, no driver is required.

Oh, and besides lensrentals.com and the Munki Photo, SpectraCal rents i1Pros at over 3x the cost. Renting a spectro for the purpose of profiling a colorimeter on the displays you actually have makes a lot more sense to me than sending a colorimeter in for "recertification". I would have gone with the i1Pro rental if it hadn't been so much more expensive, but the Munki is supposed to be pretty good, too.
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post #1402 of 1402 Old 02-20-2014, 06:09 PM
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Thanks for the info, sawfish. I have had an i1D3 for about a year, now, and never had it profiled. I also use Calman. I am just a home user enthusiast and have been happy with the results of the default meter. This may be a good option for me.
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