For those struggling with brightness, contrast & backlight settings on LCD's - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by duke32 View Post

Well, after all the discussion, I popped in the DVE grayscale ramp to compare with what I ended up with using AVS HD, and I could see no discernible difference between the two - YMMV.

Same here !
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post #32 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 11:31 AM
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19 instead of 17? You mean 16 instead of 17 right? So basically, using the AVS disc, the display is still set too bright?

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post #33 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 11:54 AM
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No I mean you adjust brightness so that the last number you barely see flashing is 19. This coincides with the 2 dots on the grayscale pattern adjustment on DVE.
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post #34 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 12:11 PM
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Yes, 19 instead of 17 implies lowering brightness further (at least on my plasma). So it's too bright (sorry I'm not english I need more words sometimes ).

I wonder who is really right here. I agree that I like it better with the 19 th bar flashing method, but that does not make it the correct way per definition. It might just be my plasma is unable to display video black at level 16 correctly and that many screens suffer from this. Come one experts set us free )

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post #35 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen1000 View Post

Yes, 19 instead of 17 implies lowering brightness further (at least on my plasma). So it's too bright (sorry I'm not english I need more words sometimes ).

I wonder who is really right here. I agree that I like it better with the 19 th bar flashing method, but that does not make it the correct way per definition. It might just be my plasma is unable to display video black at level 16 correctly and that many screens suffer from this. Come one experts set us free )

I can tell you this much. Adjusting to 19 agrees with the dve grayscale pattern as we have stated. It also agrees with the THX pattern. 17 does not. 17 washes my sets out(yes multiple).

What excited me about the dots and the grayscale pattern is how exact a method it is vs the thx or dve traditional or other brightness patterns. Its just easy and correct.
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post #36 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 01:11 PM
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For me coloration was always an issue so I have been setting the black level, then White level (Using PLUGE patterns), tweaking the color and tint with a blue filter then checking the black and white levels again.

Now I think I will try the 100% white window test to check for the coloration point, then check for overall ftL output and double check black levels Adjusting the brightness so that the Y reading of the 10 IRE window pattern measures as close as possible to 0.65% of the Y reading of the 100 IRE white pattern. When using this method I have never been out more than one or two clicks, about the same variants when using the 17 to 19 pluge patterns.

Now I think I should have a good starting point.
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post #37 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by serialmike View Post


The odd thing about this is at least on my lcd I used to have so many issues with shadow detail. I feelt like i wasnt seeing it because I could see faint information. Turned out that was not detail but noise. And Getting this right as it is now hides the noise and the areas such as dark clothing for instance are now jsut blank black areas but now my mind isnt annoyed with the image thinking I should be seeing detail. It fells right and looks great and the set just pops.


Exactly. Perceived detail can be a tricky thing, and cause someone to set black level too high.

I think the DVE indicators are the only way to go.


On a side note....

lets all not overcomplicate things. If video black is dithering in movies, your brightness is too high. Such is always the case when I flash down to "17" for all my sets. However, when the DVE blu ray ramps indicators are correct, my blu-ray movies are correct. Thats the proof IMO.
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post #38 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 02:08 PM
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Wait a minute here redwolf

Video black (level 16) is not dithering (in fact, it is the only level that the AVS disc allows me to see that doesn't on my plasma). But all levels above it (as many as the AVS disc can show)do show dither.

I wish I were home to test the lot by setting video black at level 19. It should be very easy to see the effect. I just hope that I do not find everything above 19 still to be dithering like crazy.
When I calibrate using my Xrite meter I'll ask Tom (creator of Chroma Pure) about this take on this.

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post #39 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen1000 View Post

Wait a minute here redwolf

Video black (level 16) is not dithering (in fact, it is the only level that the AVS disc allows me to see that doesn't on my plasma). But all levels above it (as many as the AVS disc can show)do show dither.

I wish I were home to test the lot by setting video black at level 19. It should be very easy to see the effect. I just hope that I do not find everything above 19 still to be dithering like crazy.
When I calibrate using my Xrite meter I'll ask Tom (creator of Chroma Pure) about this take on this.


True, it doesn't dither on the AVS or WOW test disc, but it does dither on all blu-ray movies, and the DVE grayscale ramp pattern. My point is, even though it seems right on the AVS test pattern, it doesn't seem to align with content. However, the DVE ramp indicators do.

Yes I too would like to hear more. Looking forward to Toms advice.
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post #40 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 02:32 PM
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1 question though. Aren't we just crushing the most used "black" video levels just to reduce an inherent plasma annoyance? Don't think too much about this. It's a bit speculative.

OR are you saying you observed the dither is eliminated on the entire grey ramp pattern?

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post #41 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen1000 View Post

1 question though. Aren't we just crushing the most used "black" video levels just to reduce an inherent plasma annoyance? Don't think too much about this. It's a bit speculative.

OR are you saying you observed the dither is eliminated on the entire grey ramp pattern?

No, it should be solving the actual video black from being elevated. In the case of a plasma it will appear as dithering. True video black in film, or even in the credits with a black background. Thats the dithering we are talking about. Of course dithering from extremely dark detail will still remain. Its the actual true black of film I am talking about.

This true video black dithers in both film, and on the DVE pattern when set as instructed by AVS or WOW. It seems only the DVE pattern, that indicates where video black should be aligns perfectly with blu-ray and dvd sources. Of course when setting it with the DVE pattern, video black is correct in blu-rays, as well as it resulting in a lower brightness setting on the tv.
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post #42 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 03:32 PM
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So is the consensus to make 19 the lowest visible or 20 the lowest visible? I get a brightness setting one click lower with the latter (40 vs. 41).
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post #43 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 03:46 PM
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I spent some time experimenting this afternoon. My Blu-Ray player is routed through an iScan Duo so I used the Duo to vary black level. AVSHD 17 is Brightness +4, and 19 is +0. +4 also matches the DVE "Pluge with Grayscale" pattern but +0 is the number for the DVE dotted GS ramp pattern.

Let's throw something else into the fray, the Monster/ISF disc showing the "How black are your blacks? chapter". Video with the moving "X" to set black level came out to +5 on the Duo.

The monster picture of the black shirt and jacket looked good at +5 and + 4 but the shirt was almost out of sight at +0. Detail here was obviously crushed at +0 as it was on several Blu-Rays I used for references.

I believe that AVSHD 17 (+4) is correct --- HOWEVER -- my display has embarrassingly poor blacks. It's a Samsung LED DLP with an MLL around .025fl. Even though it was obvious there was some black crush at +0, the total picture no matter what the content and the content source looked better, no doubt about it.

Why? Near blacks were now darker and produced better overall contrast with average content. As I watch the display it makes me videophiably (new word?) uncomfortable because I know what shadow detail I am supposed to be seeing and some of it is missing. I tell myself to try to accept the change and concentrate on the main focus of the content and forget about the anal details. It works. I like the picture on this display better even though it feels weird.

I wish I had a Kuro to place side by side with my display because I think AVSHD 17 would be a better number than 19. The Kuro can really sort out the blacks. My DLP cannot.

I'm going to watch the new black level for a couple of weeks and try to get used to it. Once I do it'll be time to reset to the old black level and see how I feel...

Sorry about my subjectivity on a science forum. LOL

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post #44 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

No, it should be solving the actual video black from being elevated. In the case of a plasma it will appear as dithering. True video black in film, or even in the credits with a black background. Thats the dithering we are talking about. Of course dithering from extremely dark detail will still remain. Its the actual true black of film I am talking about.

This true video black dithers in both film, and on the DVE pattern when set as instructed by AVS or WOW. It seems only the DVE pattern, that indicates where video black should be aligns perfectly with blu-ray and dvd sources. Of course when setting it with the DVE pattern, video black is correct in blu-rays, as well as it resulting in a lower brightness setting on the tv.

Hold the press then!We have had a misunderstanding. My video black (meaning true digital level 16) is just fine in film (as far as I can tell and I was really hawking the screen at nose proximity). I do still have excessive green dithering (green snow, green flecks, whatever you want to call it) accross dark scenes but true video black(well the blackest black my plasma can display) is perfectly fine!

Lowering my brightness (so that it is set at level now 18 I believe, I have not tried 19 as I'm not home atm) further DID solve (my perception of):

1) my washed out picture.
2) reducing my green dither considerably (I'm not talking about the video level 16 dither here! but levels 17 and up!)


So I'll repeat for clarity: setting my blacks at level 16 with either my DVDO EDGE VP's pluge pattern or the AVS disc gave me a nice true black with very faint red dithering. Adjusting low end white balance for red with -2 solved the faint red dithering.

All levels above 16 though, show dithering with red and green pixels.


I hope we are on the same page now. Your approach is trying to solve a problem I did not have. But nevertheless, not adhering to level 16 did have a possible effect on my picture.

edit:
This begs the question: if you make the 4% below black stripe on the standard pluge pattern disappear (my EDGE VP doesn't have a fancy one like AVS). And subsequently, you get the pluge patterns' background (= video black at level 16) as black as the 4% below black stripe. Are you then done. Most sources say "YES" to this.

But you could continue lowering the brightness until the above black stripe disappears, and then you dial back 1 notch so that it becomes visible again.


@Buzzard
You seem to have a similar experience. The picture actually looks better by setting it at level 18-19 instead of 16.

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post #45 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 04:35 PM
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There is a very good pattern in Spears & Munsil BluRay Disk for setting Brighness using a very faint checkerboard pattern in the background using blacks blocks at 0% (16, Reference Black) and 0.5% Gray (17, 1 Above Reference).

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post #46 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

So either use the DVE grayscale with the 2 dots. And lower brightness till dithering or banding is visible at or a hair below the 2 dots or use AVS and use 19 instead of 17. the 2 dots test will require you to get up to the set not from 10 feet back. though technically so will the avs pattern.

Could someone please explain what dithering/banding is and what it is supposed to appear like?
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post #47 of 126 Old 08-02-2011, 07:16 PM
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Adjusting contrast gets brought up in this forum from time to time. The OP mentions using a meter to assist in adjusting contrast. The meter is used to see at what point a color begins to run out. I don't recall hearing about this method previously. As he correctly points out, we should utilize no clipping, discoloration, or eye strain as the cardinal rules. However, the use of a meter to assist one in finding at what point discoloration occurs sounds like a reasonable approach. How do the more experienced calibrators feel about this approach? Pros/Cons?
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post #48 of 126 Old 08-03-2011, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duke32 View Post
Set your back-light to zero and put up either a 100% window or field. I checked both and had the same result. Set your contrast to about 75% and start raising it one step at a time. What you are looking for is when color is not being added anymore. You will most likely run out of red first. My red output peaked at a setting of 89/100. One step higher and red output dropped 3%. That is now .
Why do you set your backlight to zero? Does it really matter where the backlight is set at?


If someone could answer the couple of questions above this post, I would appreciate it.
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post #49 of 126 Old 08-04-2011, 03:36 AM
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Well, I have found further "evidence" for redwolf's theory. I'll do my best to explain clearly, please ask if I should do better:

There are 3 bars on the pluge pattern (2 that really matter) for a DVDO EDGE, and then there is also the background for the bars. The background is reference black (level 16). One bar is 4 IRE below black, 1 bar is 1 IRE above black. The 3rd bar is 2 IRE above black but I won't be using it.

Main (most accepted?) strategy:

1. Make the below black bar vanish
2. make the background equally black as the below black bar (no green dithering should be seen in the background!!)
3. The remaining 2 bars should be visible (this is just a sanity check IMHO)

Now video black is at level 16 if you double check with the AVS disc. The picture on the tv looks wrong. Too much green dithering and a bit washed out. This is my subjective opinion, there is 0.0% science involved.

Now, guess what:

if you make the 1 IRE above black bar vanish, and then dial the brightness back up so that the 1 IRE above black bar is just visible, you end up on redwolf's level 19 on the AVS disc.

I do not believe this to be a coincidence...Does this help at least a bit )

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post #50 of 126 Old 08-04-2011, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen1000 View Post

Well, I have found further "evidence" for redwolf's theory. I'll do my best to explain clearly, please ask if I should do better:

There are 3 bars on the pluge pattern (2 that really matter) for a DVDO EDGE, and then there is also the background for the bars. The background is reference black (level 16). One bar is 4 IRE below black, 1 bar is 1 IRE above black. The 3rd bar is 2 IRE above black but I won't be using it.

Main (most accepted?) strategy:

1. Make the below black bar vanish
2. make the background equally black as the below black bar (no green dithering should be seen in the background!!)
3. The remaining 2 bars should be visible (this is just a sanity check IMHO)

Now video black is at level 16 if you double check with the AVS disc. The picture on the tv looks wrong. Too much green dithering and a bit washed out. This is my subjective opinion, there is 0.0% science involved.

Now, guess what:

if you make the 1 IRE above black bar vanish, and then dial the brightness back up so that the 1 IRE above black bar is just visible, you end up on redwolf's level 19 on the AVS disc.

I do not believe this to be a coincidence...Does this help at least a bit )

Yep, further evidence for 19 orr that the 2 dot grayscale method is proper. Thanks for the input. All testing helps. And as long as people add the evidence your you with logic and reason it helps. Everyone can participate.

This is what these forums are about.
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post #51 of 126 Old 08-04-2011, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razz1 View Post

Why do you set your backlight to zero? Does it really matter where the backlight is set at?

Supposing that your display doesn't clip white, the next step would be to look for discoloration or when one color (R,G,B) stops adding to the mix. I don't know what my max contrast setting is before discoloration happens, so target luminance (35-50 ftL) is somewhat irrelevant at this step. Once I find that point where discoloration happens, then I can start adding the back light to hit my target luminance.
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post #52 of 126 Old 08-04-2011, 05:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

Yep, further evidence for 19 orr that the 2 dot grayscale method is proper. Thanks for the input. All testing helps. And as long as people add the evidence your you with logic and reason it helps. Everyone can participate.

This is what these forums are about.

Are we talking about 19 on the black clipping pattern or 19 on the APL clipping pattern?
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post #53 of 126 Old 08-04-2011, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by duke32 View Post

Are we talking about 19 on the black clipping pattern or 19 on the APL clipping pattern?

I've been using the APL clipping pattern but on my LCD it doesn't make any difference which one I use (both show 19 and up).
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post #54 of 126 Old 08-04-2011, 06:01 AM
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I use the black clipping pattern. The other one (ALP clipping) is harder too see but I did examine it and found little difference if any. I still wonder whether or not we just hit display technology limits. There is not doubt about it the picture looks better though.
When I have my meter, I'll be very curious what average light output I get. I still feel a tendency to boost contrast a bit as the picture looks a bit dark overall. I do attribute a great deal of the "dark look feeling" I have to the habit of looking at a too bright a picture for so long.

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post #55 of 126 Old 08-04-2011, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I've been using the APL clipping pattern but on my LCD it doesn't make any difference which one I use (both show 19 and up).

19 on the regular black clipping pattern.
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post #56 of 126 Old 08-04-2011, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

19 on the regular black clipping pattern.

Like I said, on my display both patterns show exactly the same level of detail: 19 and up.
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post #57 of 126 Old 08-04-2011, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post


I believe that AVSHD 17 (+4) is correct --- HOWEVER -- my display has embarrassingly poor blacks. It's a Samsung LED DLP with an MLL around .025fl. Even though it was obvious there was some black crush at +0, the total picture no matter what the content and the content source looked better, no doubt about it.

Why? Near blacks were now darker and produced better overall contrast with average content. As I watch the display it makes me videophiably (new word?) uncomfortable because I know what shadow detail I am supposed to be seeing and some of it is missing. I tell myself to try to accept the change and concentrate on the main focus of the content and forget about the anal details. It works. I like the picture on this display better even though it feels weird.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

Yep, further evidence for 19 orr that the 2 dot grayscale method is proper. Thanks for the input. All testing helps. And as long as people add the evidence your you with logic and reason it helps. Everyone can participate.

This is what these forums are about.

Proper? Perhaps. Correct? No. Video 19 as the lowest level before black makes my particular display look better but as I said earlier the MLL is terrible. High end displays with MLL in the .001 to .008 range would be better off showing video 17 assuming Rec 709 calibration.

I put a meter on my display this morning. Changing from the lowest visible video level from 17 to 19 did not change the contrast at all. What it did do, however, was to lower the max light output by over 10%. If what is happening on my LED DLP happens to other display technologies, especially plasma, you're going to pay a small price in bright environments.

If your set has low MLL and the viewing environment is dark or near dark set brightness so video 17 is visible or you will be crushing near black - no way around it.

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post #58 of 126 Old 08-04-2011, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Proper? Perhaps. Correct? No. Video 19 as the lowest level before black makes my particular display look better but as I said earlier the MLL is terrible. High end displays with MLL in the .001 to .008 range would be better off showing video 17 assuming Rec 709 calibration.

I put a meter on my display this morning. Changing from the lowest visible video level from 17 to 19 did not change the contrast at all. What it did do, however, was to lower the max light output by over 10%. If what is happening on my LED DLP happens to other display technologies, especially plasma, you're going to pay a small price in bright environments.

If your set has low MLL and the viewing environment is dark or near dark set brightness so video 17 is visible or you will be crushing near black - no way around it.

this is not true for all sets. Once I was able too set my set with brightness 49, Low backlight and show 19 brightness my black level is now .008 on my 60ex500. My white can easily be around 35 with full contrast setting if I wanted. I lose no detail. Setting brightness at 50 (18) on avscd or 52 (17) avscd washes the image out and makes it look horrible.

This is your set. Changing brightness should not effect the white output. white is contrast black is brightness. though they sometimes effect each other a little it shouldnt be much. If it is its set specific.

proper and correct are the same thing not sure what your getting at. Its either right or wrong. And its right. 19 avs black clip pattern matches, dve grayscale 2dots pattern, matches thx pattern matches, various other patterns. Seems to be correct.
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post #59 of 126 Old 08-04-2011, 07:15 AM
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This is your set. Changing brightness should not effect the white output. white is contrast black is brightness. though they sometimes effect each other a little it shouldnt be much. If it is its set specific.

I have to agree with this. My plasma and 2 LCDs don't show any such behavior, at least not in any significant way.
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post #60 of 126 Old 08-04-2011, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

proper and correct are the same thing not sure what your getting at. Its either right or wrong. And its right. 19 avs black clip pattern matches, dve grayscale 2dots pattern, matches thx pattern matches, various other patterns. Seems to be correct.
No, it's not right. To satisfy myself I hooked up my Accupel DVG-5000 professional signal generator (please don't try and tell me it's "wrong"). It has the following Pluge patterns:

PLUGE Group
0% APL PLUGE - Calibrate black level and measure black level stability at
0% Average Picture Level. +/- 4% stripes, 0% background.
Precision PLUGE - Calibrate black level with split stepped-bar pattern
from 8-bit digital level 11 to digital level 21. Black (digital 16) is center bar.
25% APL PLUGE - Calibrate black level and measure black level stability
at 25% Average Picture Level. +/- 4% stripes, 0%/50% split background.
50% APL PLUGE with 98%/102% PLUGE - Calibrate black level and
Contrast (for LCoS/LCD/DLP displays), and measure black level stability at
50% APL. +/- 4% & 98%/102% stripes, 0%/100% split background.
25%, 50%, 75%, 100% Windows w/PLUGE - Calibrate color temperature
& grayscale tracking. +/- 4% PLUGE pattern to ensure black level
doesn't shift while adjusting grayscale tracking.
100% Window with 98%/100% PLUGE - Calibrate color temperature
& grayscale tracking. +/- 4% PLUGE pattern to ensure black level doesn't
shift, and 98%/100% vertical bars to ensure peak-white level doesn't clip
while adjusting grayscale tracking on LCoS/LCD/DLP displays.
50/100 IRE Window with PLUGE - Check 100% window size for CRT
blooming


Every single pattern agreed with the AVSHD video 17 setting.


Setting black level where the lowest visible video level is 19 crushes near black. Period.

Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 

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