3D calibration settings? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 10-28-2011, 11:02 PM - Thread Starter
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What's the word on calibrating a TV for 3D mode? I know on some models, simply turning on the 3D mode causes a brightness hit and pretty drastic color shift..how do we accommodate for this? Have there been standards established for 3D calibration? How do we accommodate for the tinted lens on the glasses which blocks out a significant amount of light?

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post #2 of 17 Old 10-29-2011, 01:17 AM
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Calibrating for 3D is like calibrating a second TV or projector. 2D calibration does not affect 3D at all. So you get the display into 3D mode -- some sets can be forced in to 3D even if the source is 2D, but some cannot. When the display won't go into 3D mode with a 2D signal, you have to have a 3D test pattern source. Right now there are 2 or maybe 3 video test pattern signal generators that produce 3D patterns and no disc that I know of yet.

You have to put 1 lens of the glasses in front of the meter. That completely elimnates some meters just because their shape doesn't make it practical or the meter can be disqualified if it only works as a "contact" meter. 3D images are also far darker than 2D images and that is difficult for some meters.

The standard for 3D calibration is exactly the same standard as 2D HDTV... you just have to achieve it while looking through active shutter (or passive glasses) that are turned on and operating while you are making measurements. There's no guarantee that any 2 pairs or 3D glasses will "match" each other exactly, especially if they are different models, so if you own 2 or 3 or 4 different brands/models of 3D glasses, you'll have to pick one of them to be the "master" that is used for calibration and hope the other brands/models aren't too different.

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post #3 of 17 Old 11-01-2011, 02:36 PM
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Hey Doug,

i was going to ask a similar question and im glad i actually found an answer for this. is there any 3D glasses that is the best or can you recommend one? also, are the 3D glasses only good to their respective brands? (ie. using sony glasses for sony 3D tv).
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post #4 of 17 Old 11-02-2011, 10:15 AM
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You have to be careful with shutter glasses. It's not that every brand is different... it's more a matter of there being 1 "major" difference (whether the lens sequence is left-right-left-right or right-left-ight-left) but there could be "tuning" differences from one brand to the next to minimize ghosting. DLP-Link glasses should all work on DLP displays, but these require a white frame flash to sync the glasses... not an ideal setup IMO. Some of the 3rd party glasses are fully adjustable for dwell, delay, and r-l-r-l or l-r-l-r -- but when I reviewed the Mitsubishi 3D RPTV and found the 3D to be flawless with Mitsubishi's IR 3D Active Shutter glasses... personally, I wouldn't take a chance on any other glasses to use with that display... the Mitsi glasses were perfect, why throw in another variable that might compromise 3D quality?

3D glasses are changing to Bluetooth control (right now, some home theater products like AVRs, disc players, satellite/cable boxes, etc.) will fail to respond to infrared remote controls while 3D programming is playing becayse the IR blaster floods the room with IR which scrambles the codes from those other products' remote controls (many products work fine with their remotes while the 3D IR emitter is operating, but many have problems trying to blast through all that IR interference). When Bluetooth takes over, it has been promised that all 3D glasses will be cross-compatible among brands and models but we don't have that today.

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post #5 of 17 Old 11-10-2011, 12:09 PM
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Hi Doug, thanks for all the great info. i had no idea that 3D was being changed to bluetooth. i wonder when that will actually happen and if i should just wait for that tech to be released.
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post #6 of 17 Old 02-03-2012, 12:16 PM
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post #7 of 17 Old 04-10-2013, 10:07 AM
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Has there been anything new since this thread came about?

Any generic tips for adjusting the settings for glasses?
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post #8 of 17 Old 04-11-2013, 03:55 PM
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The differences are that now there are passive 3D video displays that use glasses similar to the ones used in movie theaters AND calibration software can now be used to take a reference measurement through 1 lens of the 3D glasses, then take a second measurement of the same screen and the calibration software will create an offset that will be applied to all readings so you can measure the TV without having to have the 3D glasses in front of the meter. But you still can't use meters that are incapable of taking readings through the lens of active 3D glasses (or passive glasses for that matter).

3D "standards" are identical to 2D calibration standards... except you'll get less than half the light in 3D mode that you get in 2D mode. Also 4X UHD displays will be able to do 3D HD (not UHD) without much light loss because they can show both frames at the same time so both of your eyes will "see" "every" frame.

And... Bluetooth is indeed the communication method between video displays and 3D glasses... there were just too many problems with using infrared... chief among them was that some audio components would not respond to IR remote controls when 3D viewing was in progress due to interference from the 3D infrared.

There may still not be such a thing as truly interchangeable active shutter 3D glasses, primarily due to how LCD imagers (panels or projection imagers) interact with the polarized light. LCDs use polarization in the process of producing images and that polarization can interact with the polarization in active shutter 3D glasses so there are some cases where "universal" 3D glasses produce black or very dark images because of the interaction with the polarization in the LCD display. But try some different model/brand of "universal" 3D glasses and they might work fine... no way to predict in advance what works with what. For DLP or plasma, you shouldn't have that issue and "universal" 3D active shutter glasses should actually be universal.

The other thing I've found about 3D... the only display technologies I've seen so far that are 100% ghost-free are DLP products. Plasma MAY be ghost free now (they were not in the first year of 3D displays) but I haven't seen enough newer plasma models for an entire 2 hour movie to be able to say for certain that all plasma displays are 100% ghost-free. But when it comes to LCD imager technology (flat panel or projection), every LCD-based product I've ever viewed an entire movie on has produced some ghosting. The display with the LEAST ghosting I've seen so far is Sony's 1000ES 4K projector. It produced perhaps 40 seconds TOTAL of ghosting over the entire length of "Hugo" with no single ghosting event lasting longer than 2-3 seconds with some as short as 1 second. So LCoS technology has the same potential for ghosting as LCD which is not surprising since LCoS is just a variant of LCD. JVC projectors are in "second place" for "least ghosting" with roughly double the amounts seen with the Sony projector. But even $600 DLP projectors are ghost-free through even the material that is most prone to showing ghosting... and I've seen DLP projectors up through $55,000 with 3 imagers that are also entirely ghost-free through Hugo and every other movie or "hot spot" I've found.

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post #9 of 17 Old 04-27-2013, 05:59 PM
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I've had my Pansasonic ST50 for a while, and I've tried to calibrate it for 3D (using the panasonic OEM glasses) using the 2D-3D conversion mode and native 3D blurays. It's off in the colors though, and I'm wondering if that may be a result of the blu ray discs themselves. I'm almost positive Prometheus and The Hobbit adjusts the colors/black levels on its own to correct for the glasses. Is this a standard for other 3D blu rays or just a few? Bc that would potentially make any calibrations based off of 'normal' test screens a bit off, esp if different discs are pre-adjusted to different settings. Anyone else notice this?
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post #10 of 17 Old 04-28-2013, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwho25 View Post

I've had my Pansasonic ST50 for a while, and I've tried to calibrate it for 3D (using the panasonic OEM glasses) using the 2D-3D conversion mode and native 3D blurays. It's off in the colors though, and I'm wondering if that may be a result of the blu ray discs themselves. I'm almost positive Prometheus and The Hobbit adjusts the colors/black levels on its own to correct for the glasses. Is this a standard for other 3D blu rays or just a few? Bc that would potentially make any calibrations based off of 'normal' test screens a bit off, esp if different discs are pre-adjusted to different settings. Anyone else notice this?

I don't believe that is the case as Doug indicates above 3d is mastered to the same standards as 2d. You just have to adjust color and tint to account for the tint in the glasses. Have seen some 3d cals that came out quite good. If you get a good cal off the patterns that should be good for all 3d material.

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post #11 of 17 Old 09-08-2013, 01:05 PM
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SOLOFORCE 3D Blu-Ray Calibration Pattern Disc for 3D Blu-Ray Players
(will throw your projector into 3D AUTO mode) Image will look 2D except for OPENING title.
IT WILL SWITCH DEPTHS. BECOME GHOSTY cause of the BRIGHT LETTERS ON BLACK. (Normal)

If you know how to calibrate your TV/Projector, and have the BLUE FILTER Lens
(Like the one from the WOW disc) you will be able to Calibrate COLOUR, and TINT, more accurately.

This is the link for the .ISO. Burn this to a BLU-RAY Disc, with the proper .ISO burning program...and you are set.

http://netload.in/dateiC6mazm1glI/SoloForce3D.iso.htm



SOLOFORCE 3D Calibration Pattern .MKV file for SBS Mode on your TV/PROJECTOR
Switch your TV/PROJECTOR into SIDE BY SIDE MODE when using this file.
Some Blu-Ray Players with USB accept .MKV Files. or Media Centers.
Note: The 3D settings for your projector are different when using SBS or AUTO.
The only way to calibrate in AUTO is with a 3D Blu-Ray Calibration Disc as above.
(That's what I've found anyway)

This is the link for the .MKV file for SIDE BY SIDE Calibration.

http://netload.in/dateiLmKS5nfC4d/SoloForce3DCALIBRATIONSBS1080.mkv.htm



SOLOFORCE 3D Calibration Pattern .M2TS file for SBS Mode on your TV/PROJECTOR
All the same information about the .MKV file but in .M2TS format.
.M2TS formats can play from a USB on your playstation 3. And again this is for SIDE BY SIDE Mode

This is the link for the .M2TS file for SIDE BY SIDE Calibration.

http://netload.in/datei5XWWgRzRsq/SoloForce3DCALIBRATIONSBS1080.m2ts.htm


GOOD LUCK!!!

iMIKE THEATRE
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post #12 of 17 Old 09-09-2013, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwho25 View Post

I've had my Pansasonic ST50 for a while, and I've tried to calibrate it for 3D (using the panasonic OEM glasses) using the 2D-3D conversion mode and native 3D blurays. It's off in the colors though, and I'm wondering if that may be a result of the blu ray discs themselves. I'm almost positive Prometheus and The Hobbit adjusts the colors/black levels on its own to correct for the glasses. Is this a standard for other 3D blu rays or just a few? Bc that would potentially make any calibrations based off of 'normal' test screens a bit off, esp if different discs are pre-adjusted to different settings. Anyone else notice this?

You can't calibrate without a meter. All you can do is guess and use a PLUGE test pattern to set the Brightness control and a sharpness pattern to set the sharpness control. No test setup disc will help you do more than that by eye. Even the discs that include Blue filters won't help you set Color or Tint/Hue 98% of the time because the filter is not accurate or the blue produced by the TV is not accurate and either one being inaccurate throws-off the result. If you could make the Blue Filter match your TV's blue PERFECTLY, the Blue Filter method would work. That is a very rare condition. But the people who make the discs keep telling us the blue filter method works when it does NOT work 98% of the time. A few discs leave themselves an "out" for the blue filter not working by saying something like " when you view content after adjusting color and tint/hue with the blue filter, if the color and tint do not look quite right, adjust them by eye until you get a pleasing result" Well DUH! If you are going to use the filter, then use your eye, why not just use your eye and skip the filter altogether because the filter is not going to get you an accurate result for the color and tint controls. I would even go as far as to say people relying on Blue Filters to set color and tint are getting a worse result than they would have gotten by eye without ever touching a blue filter (assuming they are still using the color and tint settings they derived from using a blue filter). Including red and green filters is no extra help for the same reasons... if the filter isn't "perfect" and if the TV's red or green isn't perfect, there WILL be errors.

Blu-ray discs cannot and are not mastered to a different color standard for 3D... that would be silly. Every brand/model of 3D glasses has somewhat different optical properties (like the tint of the lenses). So you can't change the disc and hope to produce a good result at home. The TV itself has to compensate internally for the 3D glasses being used. Since we know that TVs aren't accurate when they are manufactured, by default, TVs don't do a very good job of compensating for the color of 3D lenses either. Any "off color" you see in 3D mode on your TV exists for the same reason your TV does not have accurate color in 2D mode... it's not easy or cheap for the manufacturer to make the TV highly accurate in 2D or 3D modes. Why? Look at the world of professional video displays where it's difficult to find a "serious" model selling for less than $10,000. Consumer TVs would be just as expensive if more attention was paid to making the TV accurate. If a TV was $10,000, would you buy one? 98% of consumes wouldn't -- and they wouldn't understand why last year's models were $1500 and this year's models are $10,000 and up.
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post #13 of 17 Old 09-10-2013, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

You can't calibrate without a meter. All you can do is guess and use a PLUGE test pattern to set the Brightness control and a sharpness pattern to set the sharpness control. No test setup disc will help you do more than that by eye. Even the discs that include Blue filters won't help you set Color or Tint/Hue 98% of the time because the filter is not accurate or the blue produced by the TV is not accurate and either one being inaccurate throws-off the result. If you could make the Blue Filter match your TV's blue PERFECTLY, the Blue Filter method would work. That is a very rare condition. But the people who make the discs keep telling us the blue filter method works when it does NOT work 98% of the time. A few discs leave themselves an "out" for the blue filter not working by saying something like " when you view content after adjusting color and tint/hue with the blue filter, if the color and tint do not look quite right, adjust them by eye until you get a pleasing result" Well DUH! If you are going to use the filter, then use your eye, why not just use your eye and skip the filter altogether because the filter is not going to get you an accurate result for the color and tint controls. I would even go as far as to say people relying on Blue Filters to set color and tint are getting a worse result than they would have gotten by eye without ever touching a blue filter (assuming they are still using the color and tint settings they derived from using a blue filter). Including red and green filters is no extra help for the same reasons... if the filter isn't "perfect" and if the TV's red or green isn't perfect, there WILL be errors.

Blu-ray discs cannot and are not mastered to a different color standard for 3D... that would be silly. Every brand/model of 3D glasses has somewhat different optical properties (like the tint of the lenses). So you can't change the disc and hope to produce a good result at home. The TV itself has to compensate internally for the 3D glasses being used. Since we know that TVs aren't accurate when they are manufactured, by default, TVs don't do a very good job of compensating for the color of 3D lenses either. Any "off color" you see in 3D mode on your TV exists for the same reason your TV does not have accurate color in 2D mode... it's not easy or cheap for the manufacturer to make the TV highly accurate in 2D or 3D modes. Why? Look at the world of professional video displays where it's difficult to find a "serious" model selling for less than $10,000. Consumer TVs would be just as expensive if more attention was paid to making the TV accurate. If a TV was $10,000, would you buy one? 98% of consumes wouldn't -- and they wouldn't understand why last year's models were $1500 and this year's models are $10,000 and up.

I disagree.
Before these devices, all we had were eyes.
I've seen devices for TV's, Computer Monitors do an absolute terrible job at calibrating. Cause faulty equipment.
And I've never seen A Blue Filter test screw up TINT or COLOUR on any TV.
That's just my experience.

I've seen perfectly calibrated TV's and MONITORS look dull, and terrible.
Which brings me to preferences. Everyone has there own.
What some might see as blue, others might not.

Make your choices for what you like, and not what someone else, or some device is trying to tell you.
So I wouldn't make a device the be all and end all. You are going to be watching it.

Even after calibration you can still do your own tweaks. I do.
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post #14 of 17 Old 09-10-2013, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloForce View Post

I disagree.
Before these devices, all we had were eyes.
I've seen devices for TV's, Computer Monitors do an absolute terrible job at calibrating. Cause faulty equipment.
And I've never seen A Blue Filter test screw up TINT or COLOUR on any TV.
That's just my experience.

I've seen perfectly calibrated TV's and MONITORS look dull, and terrible.
Which brings me to preferences. Everyone has there own.
What some might see as blue, others might not.

Make your choices for what you like, and not what someone else, or some device is trying to tell you.
So I wouldn't make a device the be all and end all. You are going to be watching it.

Even after calibration you can still do your own tweaks. I do.


This is America and you are free to disagree.. It is your TV you are free to do whatever you like. But this is the Calibration forum not the tweakers forum and most people who post questions and answers tend to be interested in calibration or make their living calibrating displays to match the standards used in the motion picture and TV industry. I am sure you enjoy your tweaked display and if you have a question please ask, but please, this post is far from useful or helpful in any way. It is obvious you have never seen a properly calibrated display. If you are ever in the Philadelphia PA area, PM me and I will provide direction to my home so you can see an accurately calibrated LCD panel and a DLP front projector and I do believe you may change you mind.
Thanks
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post #15 of 17 Old 09-10-2013, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloForce View Post

I disagree.
Before these devices, all we had were eyes.
I've seen devices for TV's, Computer Monitors do an absolute terrible job at calibrating. Cause faulty equipment.
And I've never seen A Blue Filter test screw up TINT or COLOUR on any TV.
That's just my experience.

I've seen perfectly calibrated TV's and MONITORS look dull, and terrible.
Which brings me to preferences. Everyone has there own.
What some might see as blue, others might not.

Make your choices for what you like, and not what someone else, or some device is trying to tell you.
So I wouldn't make a device the be all and end all. You are going to be watching it.

Even after calibration you can still do your own tweaks. I do.
Please familiarize yourself with at least the basics of a topic before commenting on it. Uninformed misstatements can be prevented. Viewer preference has nothing to do with the authentic reproduction of a video program- the purpose of display calibration. There are some educational "sticky" threads at the top of this section of the forum that would potentially help with your misunderstanding and erroneous conclusions. A good one to start with is:

'Display Calibration: Root Fundamentals'
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1021933

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
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A Lion AV Consultants affiliate

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post #16 of 17 Old 09-10-2013, 06:29 PM
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I came across a question on a search.

I think someone asked about a 3D Bluray Disc With Calibration Patterns etc...

I provided a link to my basic 3D Calibration disc.
It will throw test patterns up, and force your TV/Projector to go into 3D mode.
Thousands have found it useful.
I believe that is what someone was asking for?

Someone responded.
Then I saw another post.

I disagree with the Blue Filter "Does not work 98% of the time"

So I voiced my opinion.
I didn't say devices or meter's were no good.
I've seen some fail.
I'm just passing on my experience.

Trying to help people who come to this forum for info.
Brainstorming...etc...

I don't see a healthy discussion...on an forum...with info about calibrating your display...far from useful or helpful?
On a topic forum topic that says "3D calibration settings?"

Nice art by the way Doug!

George I'm perfectly aware of Motion Picture Standards etc...
I still can't see my misunderstanding and erroneous conclusion?

Maybe I should get calibrated.

Anyways. Enjoy my disc. It's Basic.
But when I made it. There was no other one out there.

Cheers.
MAN Really good art there Doug!
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post #17 of 17 Old 09-10-2013, 07:48 PM
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Thanks, been a while, maybe I will get back into that this winter..
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