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post #61 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Your profile is not so accurate to compare the results of i1pro vs. profiled C6.

When you are taking a profile it doesn't mean that is accurate all the times.

You have to take a 100% measurement before the profiling using i1PRO , take readings of both instruments with 100% Amplitude Patterns and then compare the 100% reading of the profiled C6 vs. your i1PRO.

If it's close to xy, not to dE then you have create an accurate profiling that your C6 will see the same xy readings of your i1pro.

Looking at your pictures i don't see a perfect match to any level so your images are both useless here.

Run again a new profile and upload new pictures if you need your data to be usefull for someone who will read your post.

To take an idea of a near-good profiling or i1pro vs. C6 look that image. You have to do this check every time you use meter profiling.

Meter_Profile_Check.jpg

the profile was made with 75% stim patterns not 100% and the RGB balance values are nearly exactly the same between both images (since I'm using auto-scale you might think the errors are larger than they really are)... this profile is nearly perfect and so the images are quite useful

the bottom line is the profiled C6 seems to do no better for the grayscale patterns under 10 cdm (10%, 20%, and 30% gray) than the i1Pro alone

seems to me like you're just splitting hairs with the whole 100% measurement thing (which in my case should by 75% instead anyways)... look more closely and see just how small the variations between the two images are (the biggest differences are in Y, not xy)
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post #62 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 09:03 AM
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I should also add that the profile was created in single pass mode, with both meters as close as possible to the center of the screen (and each other) and in contact mode. The measurements shown for the profiled C6 were taken a day later with the meter dead center in contact mode and the i1pro measurements were taken a day after that also dead center in contact mode. So, when you factor in screen uniformity, meter repeat-ability, and display warm-up/fluctuation, the variations you see are actually quite minimal.
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post #63 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I should also add that the profile was created in single pass mode, with both meters as close as possible to the center of the screen (and each other) and in contact mode. The measurements shown for the profiled C6 were taken a day later with the meter dead center in contact mode and the i1pro measurements were taken a day after that also dead center in contact mode. So, when you factor in screen uniformity, meter repeat-ability, and display warm-up/fluctuation, the variations you see are actually quite minimal.

Measuring with i1PRO now vs. measuring with i1PRO another day you will receive similar xy differencies, just using one meter.
So you test is not helping for safe results anyone.

Follow the method it told you above... checking the profiling and measure using multi-pass from the same spot.

I have data's totally different for i1PRO but i have to check some old files to provide you the numbers-charts.

There is a large difference in luminance levels of i1pro is reading at low range that makes the calibration run very dark at low levels, RGB balance is not the only problem, luminance problem is larger.

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post #64 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 10:49 AM
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Hi Ted,

To be clear, your suggestion is that we should change the default 75% stimulus in the Meter Profiling 'Box' to 100% stimulus and run the multi mode of the meter profiling for all the colour patterns at this 100% level.

Am I correct?
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post #65 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Hi Ted,

To be clear, your suggestion is that we should change the default 75% stimulus in the Meter Profiling 'Box' to 100% stimulus and run the multi mode of the meter profiling for all the colour patterns at this 100% level.

Am I correct?

Exactly, for i1PRO, that spectro needs luminance to read correctly any color, 75% patterns have the half luminance of 100%. I have no idea why they have recommend the 75% patterns.

Spectro needs light to see and measure, and i1PRO is no good reading blue also (as the color with the lowest luminance used for profilings). If the pattern has good luminance then it will read more accurate. wink.gif

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post #66 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Exactly, for i1PRO, that spectro needs luminance to read correctly any color, 75% patterns have the half luminance of 100%. I have no idea why they have recommend the 75% patterns.

Spectro needs light to see and measure, and i1PRO is no good reading blue also (as the color with the lowest luminance used for profilings). If the pattern has good luminance then it will read more accurate. wink.gif

I actually use a Color Munki Photo Spectro but it's performance (or lack of it at low 'Y' values) will be similar I suppose.

Is it necessary to check the colour values of the profiled C6 for x,y compliance or is the white comparison with my Spectro sufficient?
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post #67 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Exactly, for i1PRO, that spectro needs luminance to read correctly any color, 75% patterns have the half luminance of 100%. I have no idea why they have recommend the 75% patterns.

Spectro needs light to see and measure, and i1PRO is no good reading blue also (as the color with the lowest luminance used for profilings). If the pattern has good luminance then it will read more accurate. wink.gif

I actually use a Color Munki Photo Spectro but it's performance (or lack of it at low 'Y' values) will be similar I suppose.

Is it necessary to check the colour values of the profiled C6 for x,y compliance or is the white comparison with my Spectro sufficient?

I'm going this only for white, if you have time check the RGB also , usually if the difference of White is +-0.001 xy between reference/profiled meter then the RGB will be so close too, but at these range of meters i1pro/colormunki (low range), only white is OK

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post #68 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 11:22 AM
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BTW 4-Color Matrix Method for Meter Profiling using THX CineCube & LightIllusion LightSpace CMS ( I have used both), the programs are displaying 100% Luminance WRGB Patterns only, no way to change this to 75% or any other level.

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post #69 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Measuring with i1PRO now vs. measuring with i1PRO another day you will receive similar xy differencies, just using one meter.
So you test is not helping for safe results anyone.

Follow the method it told you above... checking the profiling and measure using multi-pass from the same spot.

I have data's totally different for i1PRO but i have to check some old files to provide you the numbers-charts.

There is a large difference in luminance levels of i1pro is reading at low range that makes the calibration run very dark at low levels, RGB balance is not the only problem, luminance problem is larger.

Do you really believe if my profile is a tiny bit more accurate, the conclusion drawn from the data will be significantly different?

I don't and regardless of whether I use my profiled C6 or i1pro to calibrate this display, the post-cal picture setttings are exactly the same (since the differences in grayscale/gamma/gamut measurements between the two meters are much smaller than the resolution of the display's picture controls, 2-pt white balance and gamma presets). Also, my display is putting out about 15 fL at 75% white so the i1pro will be reading accurately at that level.
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post #70 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Exactly, for i1PRO, that spectro needs luminance to read correctly any color, 75% patterns have the half luminance of 100%. I have no idea why they have recommend the 75% patterns.

Spectro needs light to see and measure, and i1PRO is no good reading blue also (as the color with the lowest luminance used for profilings). If the pattern has good luminance then it will read more accurate. wink.gif

probably to make the profile more accurate throughout the whole luminance range, since 100% is at the top end while 75% is closer to the middle of the range
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post #71 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Exactly, for i1PRO, that spectro needs luminance to read correctly any color, 75% patterns have the half luminance of 100%. I have no idea why they have recommend the 75% patterns.

Spectro needs light to see and measure, and i1PRO is no good reading blue also (as the color with the lowest luminance used for profilings). If the pattern has good luminance then it will read more accurate. wink.gif

probably to make the profile more accurate throughout the whole luminance range, since 100% is at the top end while 75% is closer to the middle of the range

Once a profiling is creaTED carefully like i described above then it's good for any luminance level, that 75% method is oldschool, you will get better results for i1PRO with 100% Amplitude Profiling Patterns.

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post #72 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post



I have data's totally different for i1PRO but i have to check some old files to provide you the numbers-charts.

There is a large difference in luminance levels of i1pro is reading at low range that makes the calibration run very dark at low levels, RGB balance is not the only problem, luminance problem is larger.

Could it be that my i1pro handles dark grayscale patterns much better than whichever original i1pro you are referring to? Mine is a Rev D.

Also, if I compare the C6's LCD Direct View Wide Gamut White LED tables to the i1pro the differences in xy and Y aren't much greater than with the profile... so the unprofiled C6 is also measuring close to the i1pro on this display (and I see no evidence to suggest the xy and Y differences are any greater at 10% to 30% gray vs. 40%-100% gray, regardless of whether you look at the profiled C6 or unprofiled C6 vs. the i1pro).
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post #73 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Once a profiling is creaTED carefully like i described above then it's good for any luminance level, that 75% method is oldschool, you will get better results for i1PRO with 100% Amplitude Profiling Patterns.

Done exactly to your method and checking 100% stimulus pattern it reads exactly the same on x and y coordinates for my Colormunki and the just calibrated OEM D3.

Have kept that profile, thanks Ted.
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post #74 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Done exactly to your method and checking 100% stimulus pattern it reads exactly the same on x and y coordinates for my Colormunki and the just calibrated OEM D3.

Have kept that profile, thanks Ted.

If you could do a simple comparison of grayscale readings between the spectro and the D3 like I did (including readings below 10 cdm like 10% to 30% gray), it would be interesting to see the results. When I get a chance, I will give Ted's suggestion a try just to cover all bases, but I'm highly skeptical my data would change in any significant way, since my current profile is just a tiny bit off.
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post #75 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 01:47 PM
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here's the xy readings (to four decimal places) from my earlier post:

i1pro



profiled C6

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post #76 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

If you could do a simple comparison of grayscale readings between the spectro and the D3 like I did (including readings below 10 cdm like 10% to 30% gray), it would be interesting to see the results. When I get a chance, I will give Ted's suggestion a try just to cover all bases, but I'm highly skeptical my data would change in any significant way, since my current profile is just a tiny bit off.

Initially I had 'hot plugging' issues with trying to profile my OEM D3 so I used Colormunki exclusively.

It was a little slower than the D3 but in all honesty it read all the way down to 10% white with good repeatability.

Probably I would still be using it for actual calibration work if its useability (physical shape) was comparable to the D3's. Speed was not really an issue on my LCD TV at the lower white percentages.

Will do as you suggest next time I use my meters.
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post #77 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 01:51 PM
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for 100% white:

x: 0.3129 (spectro)

x: 0.3128 (colorimeter)


y: 0.3300 (spectro)

y: 0.3294 (colorimeter)
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post #78 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

for 100% white:

x: 0.3129 (spectro)

x: 0.3128 (colorimeter)


y: 0.3300 (spectro)

y: 0.3294 (colorimeter)

Certainly close to each other.
When I first looked at profiling it was to reassure myself about my particular display.

Prior to sorting out the 'hot plugging' issue I checked out the full range from 100% down to 10% white with both meters and found that the error at 100% stayed constant (think it was x showing high and y showing low).
This was down to about 40% then it suddenly was the same for both, then crossed over for the 20 and 10% whites (x was high and y was low).

At the time I put this down to inaccuracy of both meters at low % whites after getting expert opinion.

Profiling offsets are supposed to apply throughout the full grayscale range but my meters cannot verify that. .
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post #79 of 80 Old 03-07-2013, 04:22 PM
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IMHO, I think you guys are battling over noise.

Noise adds from all sources and measurement devices, this includes the sensitivity of the probe, coupled with the repeatability of the probe, then same repeatability of the source light( arguably the weakest link), then background interference of the environment. This is all something Derek was pointing out in testing methods.

The 100 or 75% argument is more likely a misnomer due to greater varibility in the components of the setup. In other words, I don't think it matters which you use, or it depends on the display in question.

Infact all you can see in the above examples is proof that the i1pro is still the slightly better "One probe to have, if you had only one".
The D3 and C6 variants have just really caught up to the i1pro in overal ability for price point and market they are designed for.


FWIW, ihave
C5
i1pro
Jeti1211BT


Also have at my desposal, 2* Trios UV spectros, a varian Cary190~1100 0.5nm spectro, Acoustic gas analyser, 2*Acoustic doppler flow measurement devices, piles moisture variants, hundreds of temp probes all sorts of weather measuing devices.The hi end spectros require factory calibrations, but we house calibrate standards to specifics needs, all the others we calibrate everything. All produce mind numbing amounts of data.

Anywhoo, for the D3 and i1pro you have 2 devices which arguably report reasonbly close to the same result, without profiling. However like the saying "Horses for courses", this 2 horse race is based on 2 different technologies to do the same job and like horses for courses, choosing the right horse can matter.

For me, the hit power for buck, the D3 wins, for Speed, arguably the D3 wins, but I don't find my i1pro that slow so I'd say D3 by a nose, for accuracy the i1pro wins, for flexibilty over many display types, the i1pro wins.

overal whos wins, well Xrite for producing 2 great tools for you to argue over which is better.

I1pro by a nose.

Masterpiece Calibration Ltd
Christchurch NZ
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post #80 of 80 Old 03-08-2013, 02:13 AM
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Agree but surely the whole idea of profiling was to evaluate the individual display.

To say that the C6 and the Spectro are devices that report reasonably close without profiling may be true for your display but not necessarily all.

My understanding is that a colorimeter treats all display types as similar whereas a spectro measures the actual spectrum.
It therefore follows that an individual LCD CCFL (such as mine) may vary substantially from the type that its general LUT was produced.

Hence my uncertainty about my 'display's conformity with type.
Hence my purchase of a spectro to get rid of that nagging doubt.

As it turned out they were reasonably close so in my case I would agree with your conclusion, but unless it is checked there is no way to give a definitive answer because the results they give depend on the individual display..
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