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post #3901 of 5034 Old 07-07-2014, 01:52 PM
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@crakarjax : So his white slider is R+G+B - makes sense.
And sorry for actually adding to the confusion.

@Holiday121
You'll find the Y target box for each Greyscale step when you scroll down the table in HCFR.

So your initial question about "what Y should be at each level" was the right one. It gets calculated once 100% white is measured.

You use R+G+B to reach it. Which is exactly what the "white" slider does.

Last edited by harlekin; 07-07-2014 at 02:01 PM.
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post #3902 of 5034 Old 07-07-2014, 02:03 PM
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But wouldn't all 3 rgb have to be in line for me to just move the white?

Also would it be best to do this before I edited the 10 point gama and do it in real time from 90 back to 10?
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post #3903 of 5034 Old 07-07-2014, 02:06 PM
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Also the 100 percent white should Y value should be at the beginning process when I bring up the 100% white and adjust rgb the best I could then take that Y and go back at 90 down to 10 and adjust those points with the 10 point gamma?
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post #3904 of 5034 Old 07-07-2014, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post
Ok question.

In regards as gamma if white adjusts it.

In hcfr what graph do I follow in order to know which way to raise or lower?

In the new guide it's using chroma pure and it does it in real time measurements
Have you tried different gamma settings in your projector? There appear to be many choices for your brand and perhaps there will be a better place to start from.

After you have found the best preset, adjust the luminance (Y = luminance) using the white adjustment at each level so that measured Y is close to Y target. You can do this in continuous measures mode while you watch the data grid.
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post #3905 of 5034 Old 07-07-2014, 02:49 PM
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post #3906 of 5034 Old 07-07-2014, 03:56 PM
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@Geoff D : Just from a model variation point of interest, may I ask you how you got gamma and the 6500K line so "uniform"? Just with 2 point greyscale?

And if so - what were youre settings? Im asking, because I just learned that instead of -2,-5,0;-1,-1,-2 kind of settings on the same color preset (warm 2 f.e.), -10,-24,-5;-5,-5,-10 in theory could be the more valid option, because you could later balance out the loss in luminance with the gamma slider. (NOT RECOMMENDED.) So Im basically asking how "normal" your in TV settings were to reach those results.

Also I know the problem of being unable to touch color levels individually - same here (2pt greyscale, no CMS).
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post #3907 of 5034 Old 07-07-2014, 06:03 PM
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This is what I came up with.. Any tips I think its close though
Attached Files
File Type: zip Color Measures1.zip (2.4 KB, 16 views)
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post #3908 of 5034 Old 07-07-2014, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Have you tried different gamma settings in your projector? There appear to be many choices for your brand and perhaps there will be a better place to start from.

After you have found the best preset, adjust the luminance (Y = luminance) using the white adjustment at each level so that measured Y is close to Y target. You can do this in continuous measures mode while you watch the data grid.

Yes I tried a new one .
Edited all the way from 90 to 10 in real time. I posted the results in a full hcfr file. Please take a look and tell me what you think.
It's actually looking good so far.
Thanks for the encouragement and help pushing me to learn more
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post #3909 of 5034 Old 07-07-2014, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
@Geoff D : Just from a model variation point of interest, may I ask you how you got gamma and the 6500K line so "uniform"? Just with 2 point greyscale?

And if so - what were youre settings? Im asking, because I just learned that instead of -2,-5,0;-1,-1,-2 kind of settings on the same color preset (warm 2 f.e.), -10,-24,-5;-5,-5,-10 in theory could be the more valid option, because you could later balance out the loss in luminance with the gamma slider. (NOT RECOMMENDED.) So Im basically asking how "normal" your in TV settings were to reach those results.

Also I know the problem of being unable to touch color levels individually - same here (2pt greyscale, no CMS).
How did I get it so uniform? A year's worth of trial and error. Settings are as follows:

Cinema 1
backlight 2
contrast 90
brightness 49
color 50
Colour temp warm 2
sharpness 50
gamma 0

white balance: red gain 0, green gain 0, blue gain -2, red bias -4, green bias +2, blue bias -1
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post #3910 of 5034 Old 07-07-2014, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post
This is what I came up with.. Any tips I think its close though
Its a good start for color evaluation. Although gamma 2.4 - sigh. Why.

Your Contrast isnt great to begin with (oh its "infinite") at 57 cd/m2 for white - and then you do calibrate for extra detail loss in dark scenes?

The Curt Palme Tutorial told you not to do it, I begged for at least bt1886, chromapure tells you its not recommended

http://www.chromapure.com/colorscience-gamma.asp

but no... it has to be 2.4. All the kids are in for it.
-

But lets get you to a first admirable calibration first (including colors), before destroying your config in the air just because of the gamma reference chosen.
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post #3911 of 5034 Old 07-07-2014, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post
Yes I tried a new one .
Edited all the way from 90 to 10 in real time. I posted the results in a full hcfr file. Please take a look and tell me what you think.
It's actually looking good so far.
Thanks for the encouragement and help pushing me to learn more

much better. With your black level you can get away with gamma 2.4 on some material but I'd hedge a bit and use 2.35 and if your projector allows multiple calibration settings I would keep a 2.2 preset as well. The BT.1886 formula will not work because your probe can't read the black level. Time to move on to the CMS settings.
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post #3912 of 5034 Old 07-07-2014, 09:30 PM
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I can have 3 gamma presets.

No CMS though in my projector.

I took measurments in that file of primary and secondary colors .
I know they were not spot on.

Is there some other way to adjust the colors slightly. I read color and tint will
Move all 3 at one time.
But is there a formula to follow
And a different way to read the colors?

I also tried creating a 3dlut with this latest calibration i did and it still fails.

Last edited by Holiday121; 07-08-2014 at 01:25 AM.
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post #3913 of 5034 Old 07-07-2014, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
Its a good start for color evaluation. Although gamma 2.4 - sigh. Why.

Your Contrast isnt great to begin with (oh its "infinite") at 57 cd/m2 for white - and then you do calibrate for extra detail loss in dark scenes?

The Curt Palme Tutorial told you not to do it, I begged for at least bt1886, chromapure tells you its not recommended

http://www.chromapure.com/colorscience-gamma.asp

but no... it has to be 2.4. All the kids are in for it.
-

But lets get you to a first admirable calibration first (including colors), before destroying your config in the air just because of the gamma reference chosen.
I will make 3 different presets. I was just happy at that time I was getting somewhere .

It feels good to at least get 2.4 somewhat close.
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post #3914 of 5034 Old 07-08-2014, 01:58 AM
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Im learning as I'm ranting.. (bt1886 needs both a measurable black and white point, gamma 2.4s use (the theoretical argument for using it) is solely dependent on the black point, ...)
--

First: Write down your current setting parameters - as they are already quite good in principle. Dont loose them.

Next steps: Do a primaries/secondaries measurement and a saturation sweep (saturation of primaries and secondaries (0,25,50,75, .. percent)) and post the results (the graphs (saturation and CIE triangle) are mostly what we would want to look at), or interpret them on your own. If color performance turns out to be "uneven" in "certain ways" (color and hue slider would only address problems "uniformly" (across all color points)) - it can be a "device specific limitation" which then would not be addressable.

If your saturation sweep and color checker SG deltaE's turn out to be _just_ not optimal (as in fixable with the color and hue sliders ):

If you have a color and a hue slider you will first test them (certain settings) against the primaries/secondaries avg deltaE (one value, "can it be lowered even further"), then against the saturation curves (deltaE diagram), then against color checker SG values.

Also, If it is somehow possible that you could get the color of white line nearer to the 6500K target (without sacrificing _much_ greyscale performance (dE's)), go for it (as you have a gamma 2.35 and a 2.2 setting still to do... ). I realize that those are "fighting words", because after my slip up yesterday I tried influencing gamma with greyscale on my end (just to get to know the principle) and look at its effects on the gamma and the color of white curve, while at the same time trying to reign in greyscale - and I would describe it as "trying to wrangle a bull". So good job already getting very near to the targets.

Last edited by harlekin; 07-08-2014 at 02:18 AM.
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post #3915 of 5034 Old 07-08-2014, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post
I'm just at a complete loss now. Even when I take a reading with just presets that gamma graph is not anywhere even close to being straight
Consider the possibility that your video range settings between pc, receiver and projector are inconsistent.
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post #3916 of 5034 Old 07-08-2014, 04:55 AM
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Going to warm up the projector here soon.

Got to feed the baby and get her ready for the day then will start measurements once again
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post #3917 of 5034 Old 07-08-2014, 05:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Im learning as I'm ranting.. (bt1886 needs both a measurable black and white point, gamma 2.4s use (the theoretical argument for using it) is solely dependent on the black point, ...)
--
There are three main considerations when deciding on what type of transfer function to calibrate to (gamma is the exponent of the transfer function). There is the source display, the target display, and lighting conditions. Before BT.1886 there was no standard for the source display transfer function, however the predominate device used in studios were CRTs and that's why BT.1886 emulates a CRT. This function always deviates from a power law except in the limit of zero black level. Digital displays do not have an intrinsic CRT function, and most did not include a means of deviating from a power law, so you had a situation where some people liked power law 2.2 (which fits well at lower video levels) and some liked a power law 2.4 (which fits well in midtones and gives an overall better CRT "look"). The next consideration is the black level of the target display, if the display does not have very deep black levels then power law 2.4 is out of the question because it destroys shadow detail. Also, if you are not viewing the display in "dim" conditions a power law 2.4 is probably not a good choice. So given this situation it's best to keep 2 or 3 different presets around and after awhile you'll find one that works most of the time.
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post #3918 of 5034 Old 07-08-2014, 06:17 AM
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Question? Should I do the other 2 presets for gamma 2.2 and 2.35 first before colors?

Does the gamma effect the color chart when tweaking?
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post #3919 of 5034 Old 07-08-2014, 06:18 AM
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ok here is the color sweeps.


im going to start messing with the other presets right now for 2.2 and 2.35


let me know what you think
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File Type: zip Color Measurescolors.zip (3.8 KB, 8 views)
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post #3920 of 5034 Old 07-08-2014, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Question? Should I do the other 2 presets for gamma 2.2 and 2.35 first before colors?

Does the gamma effect the color chart when tweaking?
Assuming you are able to hit the target gamma line as well as you did before then you should get the same color response for each preset. Remember to change your target gamma preferences in advanced->preferences->references->gamma calculation

Tick Display gamma (power law)
Type the desired value into the reference box (2.2, 2.35, etc.)
Untick "use measured gamma"

Your saturation charts don't look too bad, if you don't have a CMS I doubt you will be able to improve them.
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post #3921 of 5034 Old 07-08-2014, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Assuming you are able to hit the target gamma line as well as you did before then you should get the same color response for each preset. Remember to change your target gamma preferences in advanced->preferences->references->gamma calculation

Tick Display gamma (power law)
Type the desired value into the reference box (2.2, 2.35, etc.)
Untick "use measured gamma"

Your saturation charts don't look too bad, if you don't have a CMS I doubt you will be able to improve them.

Doing the measurements as we speak.

I don't have cms. I thought that was tr point of the 3dlut since I don't have it
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post #3922 of 5034 Old 07-08-2014, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
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First you have to evaluate whether you need a 3dLUT. Your saturations and standard color checker values are all below a dE2000 of 2 (average is around 1.2) except at the gamut boundary, this is very good to excellent color reproduction. You should run a CCSG (advanced->references->color checker patterns), this will use more colors and give a better picture of overall performance.

If you decide you still want to improve performance even though you may not notice the difference, you can create a 3dLUT for use in madVR but you can't use that for other sources (blu-ray, cable, etc.).
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post #3923 of 5034 Old 07-08-2014, 07:53 AM
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I ran a color checker in that last report I sent did it not work?
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post #3924 of 5034 Old 07-08-2014, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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post #3925 of 5034 Old 07-08-2014, 08:51 AM
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Ok for the 2.2 should I favor the rgb lines in gamma more then greyscale if the greyscale avg is around 1
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post #3927 of 5034 Old 07-08-2014, 10:54 AM
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Ok another question .

What about color temperature . Supposed to be at 6500k. Now is it better to have a more straight line across 6500 instead of it a tad higher or is it better to have a more straight gamma and rgb.

Now I know what they mean by every adjust effects the others
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post #3928 of 5034 Old 07-08-2014, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Don't worry about the color temp graph, your target is D65 white point. This is accomplished by getting the best gray scale #'s
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post #3929 of 5034 Old 07-08-2014, 11:07 AM
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Ok going to run all the color patterns as well and make a copy if report. Only thing I see right now is the 90 gamma point a little off

Hoping my colors are ok because I think everything else looks good

Last edited by Holiday121; 07-08-2014 at 11:11 AM.
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post #3930 of 5034 Old 07-08-2014, 11:20 AM
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Here we go


2.2 gamma
and 2.35
Attached Files
File Type: zip Color Measuresfull.zip (5.5 KB, 13 views)
File Type: zip Color Measuresfull2.35.zip (5.5 KB, 9 views)

Last edited by Holiday121; 07-08-2014 at 12:19 PM.
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