HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 136 - AVS Forum
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post #4051 of 5022 Old 07-17-2014, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
The i1 display pro is operating with internal adaptive integration on (the HCFR button for adaptive integration should not be used for this probe). The integration times available for the probe are minimum values that will grow as the light level is reduced and 0.5 sec is my recommendation for the best trade-off between speed and precision.
Thanks. Just to be clear, if all I was interested in was precision (say I want to really push the instrument to its limits when measuring very low luminances), it shouldn't really make a difference what integration time I use, as the value will grow to 20 seconds anyway, right? (I believe that's the largest).
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post #4052 of 5022 Old 07-17-2014, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Thanks zoyd. Forgive my ignorance, but I just wanted to clarify... Do I need to install Argyll CMS separately? As I understand it, it is included with the HCFR install. Also, do I need to install the Argyll driver as per instructions here: http://argyllcms.com/doc/Installing_...ows.html#WINV7 , in addition to having spyd2PLD.bin in user/AppData/Roaming/ArgyllCMS? Or is it simply sufficient to have spyd2PLD.bin in the APPDATA folder?
No need to have ArgyllCMS present but you do have to install the ArgyllCMS libusb0 driver located in the drivers sub-directory of HCFR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacediver View Post
Thanks. Just to be clear, if all I was interested in was precision (say I want to really push the instrument to its limits when measuring very low luminances), it shouldn't really make a difference what integration time I use, as the value will grow to 20 seconds anyway, right? (I believe that's the largest).
yes, for near-black readings it won't matter what the base integration time is.
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post #4053 of 5022 Old 07-17-2014, 11:44 AM
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great, thanks zoyd.
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post #4054 of 5022 Old 07-17-2014, 01:12 PM
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@omenII

Great! I was hoping for exactly someone like you showing up.

Im especially interested in -

what i1d3 preset you used when calibrating (white LED ?),
and interested in as detailed results (graphs) as you can provide,


You answered one question for me already and that is how i1d3s perform with VA panels, and what Sonys "quantum dots" marketing selling point means when it comes to calibrating with a colorimeter -

in that "factory calibration was "pretty close"" to what you could measure. Would also be interested in the initial (factory standard) measurements, as I have access to the same model of the TV and would learn a few things from "comparitively looking at it".

I would post my results on the forums also.

Thanks in advance!

Last edited by harlekin; 07-17-2014 at 01:31 PM.
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post #4055 of 5022 Old 07-17-2014, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
You haven't provided enough information.

What error message does (ArgyllCMS) spotread return ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
No need to have ArgyllCMS present but you do have to install the ArgyllCMS libusb0 driver located in the drivers sub-directory of HCFR.
Thanks gwgill and zoyd. I had missed the step to install the libusb0 driver and I just installed it successfully. Now when I start HCFR, the Spyder 2 shows up in the list, but when I select it, it times out with a communication error.

I tried running spotread.exe and this is the error message:
Instrument initialisation failed with 'Communications failure' (Communications failure)!

I double checked and spyd2PLD.bin is present in AppData\Roaming\ArgyllCMS

Any other ideas? Thanks!

Edit - Sorry, ignore the above. Turned out that I had to unplug and replug the Spyder into the USB port for it to be detected under the new Argyll driver. It's working fine now! Thanks a lot for all the great work on Argyll gwgill and on HCFR zoyd! Argyll CMS, DispcalGUI and HCFR are the holy trinity of display calibration and it's just so awesome that the best tools for display calibration also happen to be opensource!

Last edited by orion2001; 07-17-2014 at 01:39 PM.
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post #4056 of 5022 Old 07-17-2014, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
Also I might recommend Home Theatre Geeks Episode 175 for when you are learning to calibrate - because although those "heroes" flunk things like "setting sharpness with overscan enabled", or as usual part of the explanation of the gamma settings, and are "surprised" to see how much a one step of gamma changes the curve, the basic workflow is pretty spot on - and whats more important, you see two sets of measurements with different devices, you see the importance of saturation sweeps and while Scott W shows interesting knowledge of some obscure details, Heron keeps him from messing up the calibration entirely (by disabling postprocessing, making sure that full/limited is correctly set for the calibration chain at least or noticing that red hasn't been measured (oh, Scott...))).
Lots of comments/flows in that video were painful for me to watch.

yes, I agree HCFR is much faster, I haven't touched Chromapure or Calman since I started using HCFR. At some point I will cross compare all 3 and see how the results look. I only have 3 basic meters to play with though, I1Pro, I1D2 and I1display pro. So accuracy will be somewhat questionable; I will profile from the I1pro though..

-SiGGy

Last edited by SiGGy; 07-17-2014 at 03:14 PM.
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post #4057 of 5022 Old 07-17-2014, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I tried running spotread.exe and this is the error message:
Instrument initialisation failed with 'Communications failure' (Communications failure)!
Try running "spotread -D7" and report the output.
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post #4058 of 5022 Old 07-17-2014, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Lots of comments/flows in that video were painful for me to watch.

yes, I agree HCFR is much faster, I haven't touched Chromapure or Calman since I started using HCFR. At some point I will cross compare all 3 and see how the results look. I only have 3 basic meters to play with though, I1Pro, I1D2 and I1display pro. So accuracy will be somewhat questionable; I will profile from the I1pro though..
Totally.
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post #4059 of 5022 Old 07-18-2014, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Lots of comments/flows in that video were painful for me to watch.
May I assist in listing some of those.. There is the potential to learn from errors.

- No 10 step greyscale was done, because ("how many more hours would we like to remain here.."). Greyscale tracking on the Minolta was ok, on the i1pro not so much so.
- Their understanding of Gamma is somewhat flawed - which is understandable, since the video was shot before the whole bt1886 debacle the industry used to cover their tracks - but I actually found it useful to hear what they used in their "internal decision making", which they voiced. ("I like that better".)
- None of them actually was sure about which device would be "more accurate" on OLEDs, with the benefit of the doubt going to Heron, because, Scott W. loves those numbers, once they pop up. VERY educational.
- The TV was characterized as "perfect" multiple times, mostly by Scott W, although its saturation tracking was abysmal.
- Now "lets watch some movies!"
- Brightness was corrected "by eye" after setting it with test patterns
- Scott W didnt know if Samsung used black frame insertion in Motion flow options...
- The off contact calibration was done with room light present, thanks to Scott W.
- The on screen menus brighten up the picture of an OLED which doesnt have a backlight?
-

That said I very much liked the video on a process level - because one of the guys, just forgot all ramifications and wanted to use his 1000 USD Meter and his 1000 USD software and his 1000 USD pattern generator to look at numbers, while the measurement run with the i1pro showed an entirely different greyscale and massive problems in saturation tracking. Which, from the look of it Calibrators before Calman 5 didnt even bother to notice. Those must have been simpler times - where youve got your calibration paycheck for looking at three colors that youd probably never see in any material.

Also, the steps must have been right and all in the right order, because Scott W definitely is all in favor of "stop thinking entirely and just follow the steps in the great 1000 USD software which prints a report in the end".

If there is something that anyone might take away from this by proxy - is to be very critical of the process as much as possible, even while learning, and by showing two different calibrations of one device - this video serves to underline this.

In the end the calibrations (steps) were done somewhat correctly - so you might learn something on the basic level as well.
--

Comparing this to the other "free" videos that are floating out there - I'd still recommend this, flawed as it might be...

Last edited by harlekin; 07-18-2014 at 01:28 AM.
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post #4060 of 5022 Old 07-18-2014, 05:15 AM
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Hi,

I've recently upgraded my calibration gear and I'm still using and loving HCFR.

There are 2 great things I would like to see added - Reports and use of internal test patterns to automate some measurements.

Now,... I confess, I don't know everything about HCFR and maybe the internal test patterns can already be used this way but I'm just not aware. Seems the MP3 version of AVS709 could be built in somehow so that greyscale readings can be done with one click provided the laptop has HDMI output.

I have poked around to see a little of what HCFR can export in tems of data and graphs and I will try to explore open office to see if some type of macro can take a bunch of the graphs and data and compile a semi-automatic report.

Is there any interest (beyond my own) in adding these features to HCFR?...

-Brian
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post #4061 of 5022 Old 07-18-2014, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post
Hi,
There are 2 great things I would like to see added - Reports and use of internal test patterns to automate some measurements.
HCFR already supports internal test patterns, though I'll admit that it is not very obvious in how it is worded. When the software asks for the source for patterns, select "View Images" instead of HCFR test pattern. Now, when you select a gray scale measurement, the test patterns should automatically pop up and change while the meter makes measurements. It works really well and makes things a lot faster. The one thing to however be careful about is how your display handles 0-255 v/s 16-235. You need to ensure that your video player outputs the same set of levels to the display as those you are testing.
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post #4062 of 5022 Old 07-18-2014, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
Try running "spotread -D7" and report the output.
I think you may have missed my edit in the previous post. It's working fine... I just needed to unplug and replug the meter back in so it would detect it using the Argyll drivers . Thanks for all your great work on ArgyllCMS and for your help on this thread!
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post #4063 of 5022 Old 07-18-2014, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
May I assist in listing some of those.. There is the potential to learn from errors.



Comparing this to the other "free" videos that are floating out there - I'd still recommend this, flawed as it might be...
I have a long list as well... I won't go into it much. I really enjoy Scott's articles but I'd not hire either of them to calibrate after watching this


Some basic stuff...

They failed to readjust brightness after changing the gamma control. I know they switched back but that should have been done before the measurement to accurately determine gamma.

The TV has an ABL. They needed to try color/gamma with different pattern sizes and see how it reacts. Find the sweet spot or determine ABl on oled isn't a factor... This wasn't even mentioned. ABL = dynamic contrast.. bad for gamma and color luminance.

Lack of knowledge on Samsung menus was baffling to me. They haven't changed in many years.

One of them said the color control adjusts saturation globally. This on also incorrect. It mostly adjusts luminance for the colors, on any modern digital tv anyway.

... I'll stop...

Sigh... I'll just leave it with this. Just because someone has the certs (isf/thx/whatever) does not mean they are more qualified than someone without them... I think dnice/zoyd are good examples of this.

Yes. Lots to learn or be misguided with in this video

Last edited by SiGGy; 07-18-2014 at 08:58 AM.
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post #4064 of 5022 Old 07-18-2014, 12:00 PM
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Yep, caught the color (slider) explanation snafu as well..
-

As far as the "rosé" tint goes I see in my "perfect" calibration on certain pastel whites (induced by R1 hue setting which is necessary to lower skin tone dEs on my sets), it could be entirely combatted by moving green gain for one step - (or a half-step (by using a greyscale setting which doesnt eat into the image contrast as much (meaning -2,-5,0;-1,-1,-2>-1,-4,0;0,0,-1)), dE on prim/sec and color checker increases, but only slightly.

I'm still at the evaluation stage, but the point being, that I have a newly found admiration for meter accuracy being important. The one step in green gain isnt even "negatively" noticeable on the greyscale graph (it shows in noticeable dE changes for greyscale) - and still it is an "important change" regarding the image characteristic (allthough good color checker values in both cases), regardless of if I may choose to go with it or not.
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post #4065 of 5022 Old 07-18-2014, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
HCFR already supports internal test patterns, though I'll admit that it is not very obvious in how it is worded. When the software asks for the source for patterns, select "View Images" instead of HCFR test pattern. Now, when you select a gray scale measurement, the test patterns should automatically pop up and change while the meter makes measurements. It works really well and makes things a lot faster. The one thing to however be careful about is how your display handles 0-255 v/s 16-235. You need to ensure that your video player outputs the same set of levels to the display as those you are testing.
That's interesting... I will try it...Thanks.

(won't be home for about a week ... but looking forward to trying it.)
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post #4066 of 5022 Old 07-18-2014, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
One of them said the color control adjusts saturation globally. This on also incorrect. It mostly adjusts luminance for the colors, on any modern digital tv anyway.

... I'll stop...

Sigh... I'll just leave it with this. Just because someone has the certs (isf/thx/whatever) does not mean they are more qualified than someone without them... I think dnice/zoyd are good examples of this.

Yes. Lots to learn or be misguided with in this video
A lot of Samsung's shift where the 25% saturation points sit.
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post #4067 of 5022 Old 07-18-2014, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
HCFR does not see my .ccss files in the APPDATA\Roaming\Color, directory...
The "Use existing meter correction file" list is empty.

Am I doing something wrong?
How can I use them?
Try installing HCFR as the admin user. A standard user doesn't have the permission to create the necessary directories in Win 7. At least that's what worked for me when I had the same problem.
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post #4068 of 5022 Old 07-18-2014, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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The drop down box for use existing meter correction files refers to matrix corrections. To use the installed ccss files you must choose the corresponding display type in the subsequent dialog box.
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post #4069 of 5022 Old 07-19-2014, 06:24 AM
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Thanks found it.


Questions:

Can I see anywhere "Delta Luminance %" of color saturation while in continuous measurement mode like with "Y target"?
Its really annoying doing the whole measurement each change (old way).

I think there is a bug in the "Y target" calculation.
When using "Continuous mode" the reading of Y is different to what "Measure Grey Scale" would read.
I think "Y target" gives me wrong values, when I set Y accordingly the measured Gamma (Y) is off.
I had to use the old painful way of measuring the whole gray scale each adjustment.
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post #4070 of 5022 Old 07-19-2014, 08:02 AM
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Attached are my final readings for my Sony 55W905 (W900 in the US). Meter is an i1 Pro using the LED White IPS display setting and power law gamma.

My set was incredibly accurate out of the box and didn't really need any white balance adjustments at all though I've settled on -1 each on the Red and Blue gains to level the temperature out as evenly across the greyscale as possible without dropping below 6500k at any point. Gamma is nice and flat 2.21 at setting 0.

Colour is bumped up +2 to 52 as the best compromise across all saturations but mostly at 75% and to keep all delta E's under 2. At 75%, Green is pretty much bang on, Red is slightly under saturated and Blue is slightly over. As good as I can get without a proper CMS anyway.

Readings were done with local dimming on low as that's what I view with. Main settings below :-

Backlight 8
Contrast 98
Brightness 50
Colour 52
Clear Plus motion (halves light output hence the backlight and contrast settings, but resolves 1080 lines of motion resolution)
Local Dimming low

Real world material looks generally lovely, definitely the most plasma like LCD I've viewed which is the biggest compliment I can pay really. Viewing angles are terrible though, the set takes on a bizarre Red/Pink hue from from even 30 degress off centre. I even think I can see a slight underlying Red cast front on in certain ambient light too, but pretty sure all this is down to the Quantum Dot backlighting which makes it a bit special and unique in mostly positive ways.

Readings were all done using the built in media player and mp4 AVS709 patterns. Settings were also verified using a PS3 outputting full RGB with the telly HDMI Dynamic Range set to either Auto or Full.

As a side note, I took some greyscale measurements off centre and was shocked at the temperature differences! Blue was 5-10% higher pretty much anywhere out of the centre sweet spot and I was tempted to try and find an average across the screen but just settled on what I'd arrived at from measuring right in the centre.
Attached Thumbnails
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post #4071 of 5022 Old 07-19-2014, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Thanks found it.


Questions:

Can I see anywhere "Delta Luminance %" of color saturation while in continuous measurement mode like with "Y target"?
Its really annoying doing the whole measurement each change (old way).

I think there is a bug in the "Y target" calculation.
When using "Continuous mode" the reading of Y is different to what "Measure Grey Scale" would read.
I think "Y target" gives me wrong values, when I set Y accordingly the measured Gamma (Y) is off.
I had to use the old painful way of measuring the whole gray scale each adjustment.
I am doing calibration for the first time on a benq1070 and this is one thing I couldn't figure out. I was doing free measures at 10 20 30 etc and once I was done full measure dE was way off from free measure dE.
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post #4072 of 5022 Old 07-20-2014, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by mystigiandoll View Post
I am doing calibration for the first time on a benq1070 and this is one thing I couldn't figure out. I was doing free measures at 10 20 30 etc and once I was done full measure dE was way off from free measure dE.
Exactly.

Maybe something is wrong with the "Y target" calculation?
Zoyd, why is there difference in Y between free measure and grey scale measure?
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post #4073 of 5022 Old 07-20-2014, 09:29 AM
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@omenII : Thank you for the heads up. I will provide my measurements on the W905 once Ive done them.
--

New installment in the "this whole industry is a mess" series.

Hiding faults between the lines, or why you will never be able to trust any HDTV review you read.

Same TV, same settings. Great base values. But there would be this "rosé" tint I saw from time to time, which I found extremely unnerving and I couldn't put my finger on it - because the TV measured just great in previous runs. Color Checker avg 1.0, almost no dE above 3, ...

Until I increased the saturation points in the measurement run. Now I have a good idea about whats going on with this set.

Care to take a guess yourself?



So what is the problem here?

There is literally NO review site and probably almost no calibrator out there who cares to look at more than the usual 25 saturation values in all colors. But they all give an assessment about the color performance of the set. To increase the measurement resolution from 5 to 50 values per color would take about 5 minutes more per review. Not joking. But no one does it.

And thats why from now on you'll never be able to trust any TV review you'll read.

"The first point on the list of which TV to buy is color performance. You can't judge it in stores. You'll have to read reviews." - Which will lie to you. Because the reviewers arent willing to put 5 minutes extra into each set they see.

Last edited by harlekin; 07-20-2014 at 10:11 AM.
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post #4074 of 5022 Old 07-20-2014, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mystigiandoll View Post
I am doing calibration for the first time on a benq1070 and this is one thing I couldn't figure out. I was doing free measures at 10 20 30 etc and once I was done full measure dE was way off from free measure dE.
It's difficult to say anything meaningful given a comment like this. You'll need to provide more data and an explanation of exactly which data values you don't understand. Note that the gray scale grid values are not updated during continuous measures so they will be different from what you see real time. The magnitude of the difference depends on probe and display stability between measurements. If you see large differences perhaps you have an adjustment menu displayed during continuous measures that is not present during the automated run. This can affect readings on some displays, most notably plasmas and CRTs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Exactly.

Maybe something is wrong with the "Y target" calculation?
Zoyd, why is there difference in Y between free measure and grey scale measure?
You'll have to be a little more specific here as well, provide charts, examples, etc. The value of Y is what your probe reports. The "Y target" is determined by your 100% measured Y (and 0% if targeting BT.1886) and which gamma option you choose.
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post #4075 of 5022 Old 07-20-2014, 12:39 PM
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That must be it Zoyd, I probably have something wrong in the settings....like I said this is my first time doing a calibration and I don't understand everything (still learning).

With that said I will go through my setup and hoping someone can review it to make sure I am calibrating properly.

chain is Disney WOW disk in PS3 --> Denon 2313CI --> Benq w1070 (brightness, contrast, sharpness)

laptop --> Denon 2313CI --> benq w1070 (hcfr generated patterns for calibrating)

i1 Display Pro meter on a trip-pod about 4 inches away pointing at my screen being shot by a Benq W1070. I moved the meter up and down until I got the highest ftl which I believe tells me I have the meter at the right spot. I also installed the Argyll driver.

Launched HCFR, skipped the correction matrix part. Selected Projector for my display and left everything else as default (default was .5 sec delay time). Is this all correct to start with?

Here are the settings I have under preferences.







Before I did any calibration with the meter I did use Disney's WOW to calibrate brightness, contrast, and sharpness.

Calibrated gray scale.



checked gamma (I am not sure how to shift this, any click of gamma right or left threw it quite a bit up or down)



went through primary and secondary colors.



The Benq w1070 does have a full cms with primary and secondary having hue, gain, saturation.

I used the color tine tuning menu to adjust the gain and offset of RGB to dial in the gray scale and then used the CMS to dial in the primary and secondary but I avoided gain because I assume that would change the gray scale correct?

So I changed the Hue and Saturation to move the points around the whitepoint and away from the white point.

the dE showed really good from what I can tell but Green on the CIE chart isn't quite lined up...for the life of me I couldn't get Green on its mark but the dE was .9 for color and average dE .89 on saturation, whereas Blue is right on its mark on the CIE chart but has a dE of 3.3? Blue saturation has an average dE of 1.75, maybe dial that down a notch to correct the color dE? What am I reading wrong?



Did I set everything up correctly? Thanks for all the help, would not even had the chance to try all this without all the help here!!
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post #4076 of 5022 Old 07-22-2014, 05:30 PM
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Just want to say that the new real time dE bar during free measurements is absolutely fantastic. Thank you!

Here it is in action:

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post #4077 of 5022 Old 07-22-2014, 07:19 PM
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Hi guys,

I have hcfr 3.1.5, I1 display pro. Panasonic vt60 65" plasma. I have gone through the greyscale and gamma calibration with very good results. I used the bt-1886 gamma setting at 2.4.

I then went ahead with the cms calibration by putting up a 100ire white window having the rec709 settings in iced. I measured Y, then put 100% red window to set main color to achieve 21% of Y value.

I then changed to rec709 75% in hcfr and used 75% color Windows to measure primaries and secondaries. The result on the cie chart was that my triangle was way smaller than the reference triangle. Where did I go wrong?

Secondly, how do I use hcfr to set the luminance values for rgbcmy?

Thanks Steve.

Last edited by Steffche; 07-22-2014 at 09:16 PM.
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post #4078 of 5022 Old 07-22-2014, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steffche View Post
Hi guys,

I have hcfr 3.1.5, I1 display pro. Panasonic vt60 65" plasma. I have gone through the greyscale and gamma calibration with very good results. I used the bt-1886 gamma setting at 2.4.

I then went ahead with the cms calibration by putting up a 100ire white window having the rec709 settings in iced. I measured Y, then put 100% red window to set main color to achieve 21% of Y value.

I then changed to rec709 75% in hcfr and used 75% color Windows to measure primaries and secondaries. The result on the cie chart was that my triangle was way smaller than the reference triangle. Where did I go wrong?

Secondly, how do I use hcfr to set the luminance values for rgbcmy?

Thanks Steve.
Need to use 100% brightness patterns. Your mixing 75% brightness data with 100% brightness data. I've done that too.
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post #4079 of 5022 Old 07-23-2014, 12:51 AM
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So I should never have used the 75% colour windows, but was I correct in changing hcfr to rec709 75%?

If so, what is the purpose of the 75% windows?

Also, how do you set the luminance values for each colour in the CMS?
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post #4080 of 5022 Old 07-23-2014, 02:03 AM
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If so, what is the purpose of the 75% windows?
Generally 75% Color Patterns (means that they have 100% Saturation with 75% Stimulus Level) are recommended and probably you will have better results.

Luminance of 75% Color Patterns has about 50% of the luminance of 100% Color Patterns, so your adjustment point is at the center of the color luminance range.

Using 100% Color Patterns your adjustment point is at the highest end of the luminance range but you will probably have larger errors at lower luminance levels.

But to be sure which of pattern performs better, run a CMS calibration using 100% Color Patterns and measure with x-Point Saturation/Luminance or ColorChecker.

Later re-calibrate your CMS using 75% Color Patterns and re-measure the results with x-Point Saturation/Luminance or ColorChecker also.

After that compare both reports to see which patterns are providing you lower dE numbers.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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