HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 137 - AVS Forum
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post #4081 of 5021 Old 07-23-2014, 04:08 AM
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THank you for your reply.

Two further questions:

1. Do I need to ever change the Colour Space Reference in HCFR preferences from REC709 to REC709 (75%)?

2. Using HCFR, how do I check color luminance? I assume hue and saturation are used to place the white dot on the reference points on the CIE chart using free measures, but what about luminance?

Sorry...still figuring this stuff out...
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post #4082 of 5021 Old 07-23-2014, 04:56 AM
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Luminance doesn't show up on the CIE chart. You'd have to look at the individual measurements for luminance in the Measures view in the window with x,y,Y, and delta E values. Luminance is Y out of the x,y,Y in that window. There's also the Saturation - Luminance graph too once you're measured the 0, 25, 50, 75, & 100% points for RGB & CMY.

My Home Theater/Video Gaming/HTPC/2 Channel rig (Mitsubishi, MartinLogan, Marantz, DIYMA, and others)


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post #4083 of 5021 Old 07-23-2014, 10:47 AM
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@omenII : Finished the calibration of the 55W905A I had access too -

meter was the i1d3, correction used was White LED;

The device had access blue in huge volumes (warm 1 measured above 10.000k), so the warm 2 D65 whitepoint calibration came to

0,-4,-9;0,0,-1

Upon which all colors just fell in place (everything below dE2 in greyscale (below 1.5), colors (near 1), saturations. Color checker SC with average of dE 1 and a max of below 3. Neither color or tint had to be moved (LEDdimming to low, Motion to Clear, brightness 50, Contrast 98).

The excess blue freaked me somewhat - even to the point I would have bet that you cant measure these quantum dots devices with i1d3s, because I had never seen anything alike. Allthough color reproduction in critical viewing looked good... The Tv had been a on display modell before, so maybe a color shift? But that much?.... (Warm 1 at 10000K).

Graphs - before and after:
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post #4084 of 5021 Old 07-24-2014, 07:17 PM
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Hello together,


i have found a bug in the export feature for xls- and csv-files.


the exported deltaE-numbers on the GrayscaleSheet are not correct, except in row of 30%.


I am using Version 3.15.


greetings termi
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post #4085 of 5021 Old 07-25-2014, 01:55 AM
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How do you collect the graphs like that to post?
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post #4086 of 5021 Old 07-25-2014, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
It's difficult to say anything meaningful given a comment like this. You'll need to provide more data and an explanation of exactly which data values you don't understand. Note that the gray scale grid values are not updated during continuous measures so they will be different from what you see real time. The magnitude of the difference depends on probe and display stability between measurements. If you see large differences perhaps you have an adjustment menu displayed during continuous measures that is not present during the automated run. This can affect readings on some displays, most notably plasmas and CRTs.
Zoyd, I am also seeing some issues with reported Delta E values during free/spot measures. Let me explain the issue:

1. Firstly, I did a gray scale measurement using internal pattern generator. 100% IRE had x=0.3125, y=0.3251 and Y=139.196. The reported deltaE in the table was 2.7, consistent with the cylindrical bar representation of dE for the measurement (which also listed 2.7).

2. Then, I did a single measure, again using the internal pattern generator for only 100% IRE. When I view the results in the "Free Measures" view, the reported values are: x=0.3125, y=0.3252, and Y=138.706. However, the delta E value listed in the table is 30! But, if I click on this free measure data set and look at the cylindrical bar representation, the dE bar lists dE=3.2.

To me, this certainly seems like a bug? The cylindrical bar representation lists the correct dE values I would expect, but the Free Measures table seems to be listing erroneous delta E values. I can try to post pictures later if it would help. I have double checked this multiple times and it does seem to be a bug unless I am missing something.
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post #4087 of 5021 Old 07-25-2014, 03:45 PM
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I think I must of had "use measured values" checked in the gamma settings. Not sure but think that was my problem
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post #4088 of 5021 Old 07-25-2014, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Zoyd, I am also seeing some issues with reported Delta E values during free/spot measures. Let me explain the issue:

1. Firstly, I did a gray scale measurement using internal pattern generator. 100% IRE had x=0.3125, y=0.3251 and Y=139.196. The reported deltaE in the table was 2.7, consistent with the cylindrical bar representation of dE for the measurement (which also listed 2.7).

2. Then, I did a single measure, again using the internal pattern generator for only 100% IRE. When I view the results in the "Free Measures" view, the reported values are: x=0.3125, y=0.3252, and Y=138.706. However, the delta E value listed in the table is 30! But, if I click on this free measure data set and look at the cylindrical bar representation, the dE bar lists dE=3.2.

To me, this certainly seems like a bug? The cylindrical bar representation lists the correct dE values I would expect, but the Free Measures table seems to be listing erroneous delta E values. I can try to post pictures later if it would help. I have double checked this multiple times and it does seem to be a bug unless I am missing something.

That's because the free measures table is not meant for real-time targeting. The program will only know for sure what your target is when on the grayscale or primaries table.
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post #4089 of 5021 Old 07-25-2014, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
That's because the free measures table is not meant for real-time targeting. The program will only know for sure what your target is when on the grayscale or primaries table.
Hi Zoyd, thanks for clarifying that. Is there any utility for the Delta E entry for Free Measure table in that case? Also, why is the graphical dE value different from the one in the table and do either matter? Perhaps it might be good to consider removing them if they serve no purpose as they are a bit confusing.

I also have another issue that is really bothering/confusing me. I managed to get all my primaries and secondaries to match up really well at 100% saturation. However, I noticed that all the colors are under saturated as per the CIE chart shown in HCFR. What I don't understand is that the xy target co-ordinates for 75% saturation in HCFR do not seem to match up with stereomandan's Excel file and his excellent guide on targeting 75% saturation for calibration here. For example, as per the CIE chart in HCFR, 75% saturation red should have xy co-ordinates of 0.566,0.330. However, Tom's excel file and posts on his thread indicate that 75% saturation red should have co-ordinates of 0.558, 0.330. From looking at his thread, it looks like Tom Huffman also vetted the Excel sheet/calcs. In my case, my 25, 50 and 75% saturation readings line up quite well against the targets in the Excel sheet but are quite off in comparison to the targets in HCFR.

Could you help me understand the source of this discrepancy?
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post #4090 of 5021 Old 07-26-2014, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steffche View Post

1. Do I need to ever change the Colour Space Reference in HCFR preferences from REC709 to REC709 (75%)?

If you measure significant non-linearity during saturation scans or color checker (meaning the dE on average is higher than what you measure at the edges) then you might want to use the 75% color space option to better distribute the errors.


Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I also have another issue that is really bothering/confusing me. I managed to get all my primaries and secondaries to match up really well at 100% saturation. However, I noticed that all the colors are under saturated as per the CIE chart shown in HCFR. What I don't understand is that the xy target co-ordinates for 75% saturation in HCFR do not seem to match up with stereomandan's Excel file and his excellent guide on targeting 75% saturation for calibration
The targets will depend on your transfer function (gamma). A red target x of 0.566 would be obtained with a power law gamma exponent of 2.32

Last edited by zoyd; 07-26-2014 at 10:44 AM.
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post #4091 of 5021 Old 07-28-2014, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
That's because the free measures table is not meant for real-time targeting. The program will only know for sure what your target is when on the grayscale or primaries table.
Thanks for the clarification!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
If you measure significant non-linearity during saturation scans or color checker (meaning the dE on average is higher than what you measure at the edges) then you might want to use the 75% color space option to better distribute the errors.
The targets will depend on your transfer function (gamma). A red target x of 0.566 would be obtained with a power law gamma exponent of 2.32
Ah, that's what I was missing. I better matched 2.22 gamma via calibration and also unchecked the "use measured value" in preferences and now the color targets are in line with the excel sheet.

I tried the 75% color space option but I must have messed something up or misunderstood how it works because although the grayscale, primary and secondary sweeps worked fine and reported correct dE values in the table, when I tried free measures of the primaries (at 75% saturation now), the reported dE values seemed quite off. It seemed like the free measures were comparing against a different reference point.

Instead, I ended up just using the regular Rec-709 color space, and doing individual saturation sweeps for each color. I would then tweak the CMS for that color and re-run the sweep and look at dE and delta luminance values reported, as well as the CIE chart. This seems like a better way to do it in any case, as I can try to get the best compromise across 25%-75% saturation targets, rather than focusing on hitting a single target. Sometimes, the best calibration has you not hitting any of the targets perfectly, but minimizes the dE across all saturation settings of interest.

Thanks for all your work on HCFR. I'm so glad that I can use HCFR and dispcalGUI via ArgyllCMS with my Colormunki Display. I saved a bunch of money over the i1d3 without losing any capability in calibration. HCFR is powerful enough for calibrating my display and dispcalGUI+ArgyllCMS is exceptional and better than most commercial software at creating monitor profiles.
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post #4092 of 5021 Old 07-28-2014, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post

Instead, I ended up just using the regular Rec-709 color space, and doing individual saturation sweeps for each color. I would then tweak the CMS for that color and re-run the sweep and look at dE and delta luminance values reported, as well as the CIE chart. This seems like a better way to do it in any case, as I can try to get the best compromise across 25%-75% saturation targets, rather than focusing on hitting a single target. Sometimes, the best calibration has you not hitting any of the targets perfectly, but minimizes the dE across all saturation settings of interest.
That is the best method, but some people don't want to spend the time/effort on hunting for the minimum solution in that manner. For those folks the 75% color space option is fast and will generally give better dE values in the more heavily used regions of the gamut than calibrating the edge points.
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post #4093 of 5021 Old 07-29-2014, 08:31 AM
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Spyder 3 doesn't work

Hello,

I use last version of dispcalgui/argylCMS with my Spyder 3 and everything is OK.
I tried to reuse th fork of HCFR with his agyll driver or with the one I use with dispalgui and it doesn't work => I get spyder 3 in the selection list and the blue led flash one time when I agree but I get a sort of timeout without led flashing or colors switching when I ask for mesure.

I reinstall datacolor 3.0.4 driver and the original HCFR 2.x + dll and it works fine too.

Any idea ? I use Windows 7 64 bit

Here is the debug log.

Regard's
Christophe
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post #4094 of 5021 Old 07-29-2014, 05:43 PM
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Were you using the driver included with ArgyllCMS and not the Datacolor driver?
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post #4095 of 5021 Old 07-29-2014, 08:42 PM
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Here is the debug log.
Hi,
the part of the log you have posted doesn't have an error.

If there is an error, you need to show that part of it, and what leads up to it.
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post #4096 of 5021 Old 07-30-2014, 02:34 PM
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Were you using the driver included with ArgyllCMS and not the Datacolor driver?
Yes, I used the Argyll driver of the HCFR directory and I also tried the Argyll driver that I use with dispcalGUI/argyll.
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post #4097 of 5021 Old 07-30-2014, 02:41 PM
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Hi,
the part of the log you have posted doesn't have an error.

If there is an error, you need to show that part of it, and what leads up to it.
I select a part as the size is limited but I don't see other pertinent messages in the log.

When I launch a 10 level mesure, for exemple, I get the black screen with 0;0;0 at the bottom but nothing happen, no mesure and no switch to the next gray value => seems like a time out ?

When I create a new projet the spyder 3 is detected and the blue led flash, after that nothing more...

As I said, I reuse datacolor driver+dll+HCFR 2.x and it works
Last argyll driver +discpaclgui, and it works too
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post #4098 of 5021 Old 07-30-2014, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tirook View Post
As I said, I reuse datacolor driver+dll+HCFR 2.x and it works
The datacolor .dll doesn't work on Linux or OS X, and can't legally be distributed without permission from DataColor.

Unless you can provide some information on what failed, it's hard to help.
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post #4099 of 5021 Old 08-04-2014, 04:26 AM
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Impact of sensor positioning (i1d3) on measurements on a LED EDGE backlight LCD with good sceen uniformity (according to test sites and my eyes):

The sensor was positioned within 6cm to the center point in the four base measurements and within 15cm on the same horizontal pane as the center point for the fifth control measurement.

All measured points had a uniform but different greyscale tracking than the center point - greyscale had to be corrected by one tick (red and green gain). So maybe dont just trust in your center point to be the most representative.

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post #4100 of 5021 Old 08-05-2014, 10:43 PM
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Ok i have been searching self-calibration and I have come across this thread so i figured this would be the best place to ask. I have been trying desperately to find information on how to calibrate my Pioneer Kuro 5020FD with 111FD board in and considering that there are any professional calibrators in my area, self calibration is just about my only choice (besides Geek Squad). So, I have been researching the X-rite i1Display Pro and the ColorMunki displays. Which of these options would be the better choice? And would I want to use the HCFR software instead of the X-rite software?

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post #4101 of 5021 Old 08-07-2014, 04:29 PM
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Can HCFR Do This?

I have ordered an i1 Display Pro.

I work in a TV production facility where we have Sony PVM-A170 OLED monitors being fed by the plant's routing switcher. One of the sources is SMPTE color bars, which has a white square in the lower-left corner. Can I use the i1 meter in conjunction with HCFR running on a laptop to measure the color temperature of this white square?

I don't know if these monitors came from the factory adjusted for D65 or D75 or what, but I would like to put a meter on them and read the actual color temp. I am standardizing on D55 to more closely match the P4 phosphors used in old-fashioned black-and-white TV sets, the kind your grandma and grandpa used to watch, and early Macintosh computers.
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post #4102 of 5021 Old 08-08-2014, 11:00 AM
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EDIT: I was able to get the Spyder working. Now I just have to remember how to use HCFR to make a run or two. :-)

Hello everyone, it's been years since I did runs with HCFR. I'd like to try my hand at doing some calibration runs on my Sharp Aquos TV.

I'm running a Windows 7 32-bit laptop. I have installed the Datacolor 2.3.5 software and successfully ran a profile creation of the laptop display with the Spyder software so the Spyder 2 device worked for that.

I then installed the HCFR software, updated the Spyder2 driver and then launched HCFR. I selected a new document and then was able to select the Spyder2 from the sensor drop down menu.

However, I couldn't move forward because of the "no pld firmware pattern". It asks if I have run oeminst and that's where I'm stuck. How do I run this to keep moving forward?

Thanks!

Last edited by carillon; 08-08-2014 at 01:04 PM. Reason: Fix my issue...
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post #4103 of 5021 Old 08-08-2014, 02:31 PM
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Is there a tutorial that is more up to date to use with HCFR than the Curt Palme one from 2008? Thanks!
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post #4104 of 5021 Old 08-08-2014, 04:51 PM
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Is there a tutorial that is more up to date to use with HCFR than the Curt Palme one from 2008? Thanks!
not sure what you mean by more up to date
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post #4105 of 5021 Old 08-08-2014, 06:03 PM
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not sure what you mean by more up to date
I guess I assumed HCFR had changed somewhat since 2008. I thought maybe the people involved in moving development forward as an open source app may have documented the calibration process with HCFR.
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post #4106 of 5021 Old 08-08-2014, 06:54 PM
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It has undergone improvements, but the workflow remains fundamentally the same from what I understand.
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post #4107 of 5021 Old 08-08-2014, 07:19 PM
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It has undergone improvements, but the workflow remains fundamentally the same from what I understand.
Thanks... I'll use the guide from Curt Palme. If there are any other guides out there I'd really like to do some more reading etc. Appreciate it!
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post #4108 of 5021 Old 08-08-2014, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by chris319 View Post
Can I use the i1 meter in conjunction with HCFR running on a laptop to measure the color temperature of this white square?
Of course you can. Whether or not that (alone) will achieve your goal is another issue.
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post #4109 of 5021 Old 08-09-2014, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carillon View Post
EDIT: I was able to get the Spyder working. Now I just have to remember how to use HCFR to make a run or two. :-)

Hello everyone, it's been years since I did runs with HCFR. I'd like to try my hand at doing some calibration runs on my Sharp Aquos TV.

I'm running a Windows 7 32-bit laptop. I have installed the Datacolor 2.3.5 software and successfully ran a profile creation of the laptop display with the Spyder software so the Spyder 2 device worked for that.

I then installed the HCFR software, updated the Spyder2 driver and then launched HCFR. I selected a new document and then was able to select the Spyder2 from the sensor drop down menu.

However, I couldn't move forward because of the "no pld firmware pattern". It asks if I have run oeminst and that's where I'm stuck. How do I run this to keep moving forward?

Thanks!
How did you get the Spyder 2 to work? I have an old Spyder2Pro that I want to use, but am stuck at the same PLD firmware pattern error. I have a reference measure I did with a Colormunki Photo, so I could apply a meter correction file to the Spyder2, I just need to get it working first. Thanks.

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post #4110 of 5021 Old 08-09-2014, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by smeg36 View Post
How did you get the Spyder 2 to work? I have an old Spyder2Pro that I want to use, but am stuck at the same PLD firmware pattern error. I have a reference measure I did with a Colormunki Photo, so I could apply a meter correction file to the Spyder2, I just need to get it working first. Thanks.
I had to download/install the appropriate version of this software (http://www.argyllcms.com/). I then ran oeminst after updating my system variable path with its location. Once I did that the Spyder2 was recognized and worked.
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